Acceptance of Sin

[gurneyhalleck1]

Attending such an ungodly and evil ceremony is a tacit acceptance and participation in something spiritually unacceptable and dangerous. I know I’ll be the fly in the ointment here whom many will hate for saying this, but I would recommend against attending.

There are sins as bad as same sex perversion intercourse, but that doesn’t take away from its severity in putting our souls in jeopardy. It’s some pretty awful
stuff that mocks God’s creation. Scripture and the Fathers warn us of the perils and evil nature of it.

I’m frustrated and sad to see how many Orthodox are softening and turning apathetic to what is becoming a worldwide spiritual attack—pansexuality.

I believe it is very important to have compassion on all people, regardless of sin. Gay marriage will never happen in any church. Marriage has always been a religious rite around the world. However, protecting the church should be for the love of God and His church. Then, somehow, like a balancing act.... we shouldn't lash out and hate gay people. I just don't know what makes them the way they are. They themselves don't know why, and some wish that they weren't that way. I

I see civil unions as mock marriages. They are not 100% necessary to protect assets or estates. Any living will or notarized document can settle those disputes. Somehow, some way our legal system took on the right to perform a religious in nature ceremony. I personally don't like it.

As for my daughter, celibacy is not something you can force another person to do. It's an option for her, but the choice is hers to make. We all make choices. Everyone has confessions to make. No one shows up and tells the priest they didn't sin and have nothing to say. These days straight people have inappropriate content addictions, multiple partners, cohabitation, etc. and can be so sexually depraved it might even be worse than being gay.

Now...what if...what if my daughter wanted a civil union? I would attend. I will not abandon my child. I carried her for 9 months, I raised her, I love her. I will be at her side till I die. I'm her mother. It's a bond that can't be described. Of all the people you're close to...how many lived inside of your body and shared your blood? Or vice versa?

This isn't easy. It's easy to be on the side lines and talk about the detestable sin of homosexuality. This is a very complicated condition for gay people. They need compassion.

 

[fat wee robin]

I think we do get a little out of focus, though, whenever we start to rail about sins that we are not personally tempted by. It's one thing for a bishop or somebody else charged with stating what the Church believes about X,Y, and Z, but for us pedestrians it's probably better to keep our eyes on our own plates.

Also in this matter opinion about civil legislation is a matter of prudential judgment rather than something dictated by the faith - CS Lewis had a bit about this when England was changing their divorce laws and he was not in favor of some of the religious discussion opposing the changes. Basically, he said that most people weren't Christian and that we shouldn't impose our moral standards on others, as we wouldn't appreciate it if, say, somebody else banned alcohol.

However, this doesn't by any means imply t hat we are somehow soft on sin or that people saying these things are somehow disobedient to the Church or not being good Christians or are even necessarily in any way wrong.

I believe that this is the 'sin' which Lucifer was preaching ,as it is the only sin which would send Creation into total eclipse .
It is not just a sin ,it is the SIN.

 

[fat wee robin]

Be careful what you read on the Internet from "Orthodox" posters. There are no Fathers of the Church nor bishops who are "soft" on homosexuality. There are unfortunately a number of Orthodox on the internet that are soft on homosexuality (orthodoxchristianity.net is full of them, sadly). And unfortunately there are a few priests who are soft on homosexuality (a particular one in Boston, sadly). I suspect this is more a North American problem than a problem with most other jurisdictions (Finland excluded, obviously).

Regarding civil unions, you are venturing outside the realm of Christian morality and into the realm of politics, about which sincere Orthodox Christians of good will may disagree. I personally favour a State that stays out of the lives of people as much as possible, because I think a Big Church can flourish and fill the void of a Big State. So I would like the State to get out of the marriage business. That means that I accept that people, including gays, might want to formalise whatever relationship they have. I don't want the State to formalise that and I of course don't want the Church to recognise "homosexual marriage". But if gays want to legalise their relationships, I am ok with that.

That doesn't mean I support gay marriage. I think homosexual "marriage" is a farce and leads to a world of darkness. So does fornication, by the way. And just as I wouldn't want to make fornication illegal, I also wouldn't want to make homosexual unions illegal. As far as I am concerned, people can legally do what they want as long as they don't harm others. But all that is legal is not moral. We don't take our moral lessons from the State, but from God.

So whilst I would argue there is no Christian view on homosexuality other than to say it is gravely wrong, sinful and leads to death, I think Christians can disagree on how much the State should be involved in enforcing Christian morality. I would rather have a small State that just left us alone, but I know there are other Orthodox Christians of good will (eg Father Trenham) who would disagree with me somewhat.

An excellent post ,very helpful .

 

[fat wee robin]

Attending such an ungodly and evil ceremony is a tacit acceptance and participation in something spiritually unacceptable and dangerous. I know I’ll be the fly in the ointment here whom many will hate for saying this, but I would recommend against attending.

There are sins as bad as same sex perversion intercourse, but that doesn’t take away from its severity in putting our souls in jeopardy. It’s some pretty awful
stuff that mocks God’s creation. Scripture and the Fathers warn us of the perils and evil nature of it.

I’m frustrated and sad to see how many Orthodox are softening and turning apathetic to what is becoming a worldwide spiritual attack—pansexuality.

I find it significant that you are concerned that some will attack you for saying that . It shows how deep this particular danger is ,how far it is spread making people afraid to say what they kow to be true .

 

[~Anastasia~]

I believe that this is the 'sin' which Lucifer was preaching ,as it is the only sin which would send Creation into total eclipse .
It is not just a sin ,it is the SIN.

Lucifer preaching where? I'm afraid I don't understand the reference.

I'd be skeptical though. Pride is a soul-destroying sin which many others grow out of.

Same-sex culture is having a profound effect on society, I will say that. It is having some strange effects on our laws, and is eroding the idea of family. There are some other particulars. But I'm really leery of calling it "the" sin. I really don't get that sense at all. It was common at the time of Christ, and if it was "the" sin I think we would hear more about it. I almost think it just happens to fit a particular social agenda and is a convenient path for many destructive things to be brought in. That isn't to say that it's not a sin. It is. But I am just very cautious of how it can be that we lack compassion to people affected by it, and at the same time are tempted to self-righteousness if it isn't our own cross.

I do think there is such a web of concerns around it that we must navigate carefully how we speak about it.

Lord have mercy.

 

[fat wee robin]

Lucifer preaching where? I'm afraid I don't understand the reference.

I'd be skeptical though. Pride is a soul-destroying sin which many others grow out of.

Same-sex culture is having a profound effect on society, I will say that. It is having some strange effects on our laws, and is eroding the idea of family. There are some other particulars. But I'm really leery of calling it "the" sin. I really don't get that sense at all. It was common at the time of Christ, and if it was "the" sin I think we would hear more about it. I almost think it just happens to fit a particular social agenda and is a convenient path for many destructive things to be brought in. That isn't to say that it's not a sin. It is. But I am just very cautious of how it can be that we lack compassion to people affected by it, and at the same time are tempted to self-righteousness if it isn't our own cross.

I do think there is such a web of concerns around it that we must navigate carefully how we speak about it.

Lord have mercy.

I think that this post sums up for me ,one your lack of knowledge of the subject ,and two ,how you have shifted the blame to those who are
in spite of the threats, willing to speak up on it .
No we are not lacking in compassion , nor are we self -righteous . This is how dictatorships begin ,it is well on it's way now ,as people who think that they are morally superior ,deny what is happening .

The young now have no protection against the juggernaut ,as even christians prevent the truth being spoken .

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think that this post sums up for me ,one your lack of knowledge of the subject ,and two ,how you have shifted the blame to those who are
in spite of the threats, willing to speak up on it .
No we are not lacking in compassion , nor are we self -righteous . This is how dictatorships begin ,it is well on it's way now ,as people who think that they are morally superior ,deny what is happening .

The young now have no protection against the juggernaut ,as even christians prevent the truth being spoken .

Wow.

We are completely misunderstanding one another. God bless you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think that this post sums up for me ,one your lack of knowledge of the subject ,and two ,how you have shifted the blame to those who are
in spite of the threats, willing to speak up on it .
No we are not lacking in compassion , nor are we self -righteous . This is how dictatorships begin ,it is well on it's way now ,as people who think that they are morally superior ,deny what is happening .

The young now have no protection against the juggernaut ,as even christians prevent the truth being spoken .

I didn't get this from what Anastasia posted. there is no need to be rude.

 

[ArmyMatt]

double post

 

[ArmyMatt]

triple post (what can I say? I am Orthodox)

 

[prodromos]

I think that this post sums up for me ,one your lack of knowledge of the subject ,and two ,how you have shifted the blame to those who are
in spite of the threats, willing to speak up on it .

Uhh, what? I think you need to reread the post you replied to. There was none of the above in Anastasia's post.

 

[PittBullMom]

In a world of crosses, where are the Simons of Cyrene?

I'll be taking a break from the forum. I haven't been on a religious forum in so many years I forgot what it was like. I'll enjoy my people skills face to face.

Be blessed.

 

[prodromos]

In a world of crosses, where are the Simons of Cyrene?

I'll be taking a break from the forum. I haven't been on a religious forum in so many years I forgot what it was like. I'll enjoy my people skills face to face.

Be blessed.

In the cafe we went to after Church, they have the following sign:

"We do not have Wifi. Talk to each other."

 

[ArmyMatt]

In a world of crosses, where are the Simons of Cyrene?

I'll be taking a break from the forum. I haven't been on a religious forum in so many years I forgot what it was like. I'll enjoy my people skills face to face.

Be blessed.

sorry to hear that. we'll be here when you get back!

 

[gzt]

In a world of crosses, where are the Simons of Cyrene?

I'll be taking a break from the forum. I haven't been on a religious forum in so many years I forgot what it was like. I'll enjoy my people skills face to face.

Be blessed.

I'm sorry to hear that, but it's understandable given some of the responses you got. This is certainly like most other religious forums in that regard. May God be with you!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

A true Orthodox would’ve said it 12 times!

triple post (what can I say? I am Orthodox)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

St. Simon helped carry a virtuous Cross to create holiness allowing hell. We are to bear righteous crosses. In other cases a sword divides our families. Tough to walk as a Christian. Brutally tough. God bless you.

In a world of crosses, where are the Simons of Cyrene?

I'll be taking a break from the forum. I haven't been on a religious forum in so many years I forgot what it was like. I'll enjoy my people skills face to face.

Be blessed.

 

[ArmyMatt]

A true Orthodox would’ve said it 12 times!

haha, well, if I really wanted to be hardcore, I would have done 40

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

haha, well, if I really wanted to be hardcore, I would have done 40

This is why Orthodoxy will save the world. We go the extra mile. We turn it up to 11, when the lost are satisfied with 10...

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is why Orthodoxy will save the world. We go the extra mile. We turn it up to 11, when the lost are satisfied with 10...

yep, and I like the Spinal Tap reference