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Featured Islam Absurd Hadiths

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by mindlight, Jul 17, 2019.

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  1. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Most Muslims derive their understandings of jurisprudence ( Sharia) from the Quran and from a consideration of sayings about the life of Muhammad called Hadiths ( The Sunnah).

    BUT some of these Hadiths are ridiculous. This one below for example claims Adam was 90 feet tall!!!!

    So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adam, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 040, Number 6809)"

    Some are deeply offensive:

    But there are other alleged Hadiths calling dogs and women filth, and condemning homosexuals , Jews and Christians, the authenticity of which is questionable. P.65-66 House of Islam Ed Husain

    All are probably made up having been written at least 2 centuries after Muhammad died

    So why do Muslims rely so heavily on Sunnah to encase their women in burqas make absurd claims about Adam and ones about Jews and Christians which the prophet himself and indeed the first 4 caliphs clearly did not believe.

    Please let the Muslims answer this one.
     
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  2. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    The hadith about Adam is probably about Adam's height in Jannah. Everything is larger in size there.

    The other Hadiths you would have to point out specifically.

    Just to make sure you understand, hadith and the sunnah are not the same thing.

    Few Muslims wear burkas and there is no requirement whatsoever in the Qur'an or the hadith for women to wear burka or a niqab.

    59:7 "Whatever gains God has assigned to His Messenger from the inhabitants of the town is for God and for the Messenger and for his kinsfolk and for orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that they may not become the property of those of you who are rich. Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it; and whatever he forbids you, abstain from it. Fear God; surely, God is severe in retribution."

    4:80 "He who obeys the Messenger obeys God. As for those who turn away, know that We have not sent you to be their keeper"

    I didn't understand what you meant by: "and ones about Jews and Christians which the prophet himself and indeed the first 4 caliphs clearly did not believe."
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  3. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The text says that Adam was created 90 foot tall and that all believers who enter Paradise will be restored to Adams original dimensions. The text acknowledges that people are clearly much smaller now. Evidentially the archaeological record shows that people are getting taller not smaller with time. So this Hadith is factually incorrect and really quite absurd.

    From Muslim #3813

    Abu Zubair heard Jabir Abdullah saying: Allah's messenger ordered us to kill dogs and we carried out this order so much so that we also killed the dog roaming with a women from the desert. Then Allah's apostle forbade their killing. He said: "It is your duty to kill the jet-black (dog) having two spots (on the eyes) for it is a devil.


    I quoted a Muslim who wrote in his book House of Islam that hadiths also exist advocating that Christians and Jews be persecuted and which refer to women as filth. This seems to be bourne out in practice in Salafi- Wahabbi Muslim communities.

    Sunnah is contained in the Hadith. If the Hadith contains verses as ridiculous as the one about Adam or black dogs being servants of Satan why should I trust it. Also since it was written down 200 years after the prophet why should I believe it has anything to do with the prophet. How would you distinguish them, they seem the same to me?


    I am not sure the Quran never said this. (33:59, 24:51?) But Salafi Wahabbi literalists do insist on it and no woman does Haj in Saudia Arabia without a burka and a niqab. So they insist on the basis of Hadiths like this one

    O Asmaʿ, when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this", pointing to her face and hands (Abū Dawūd, Book 32, Number 4092)

    Muhammad and the first 4 Caliphs did not persecute Christians or Jews for their faith. They destroyed Byzantine armies and rebellions against their dominance. So the persecution of Christians and Jews that is standard in the Islamic world today is based on misreadings of Hadiths that were written after these Caliphs died not the Quran.
     
  4. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    This misconception comes from an imperfect translation. The last sentence would be better translated as 'the creation is still lacking after him until now'. Meaning as Adam was created taller, the Mankind has been lacking that since Adam was sent to earth, but they will achieve it in Jannah.
    This mainly relates to desease, most likely rabies.
    He said the last part? People say all kinds of things - doesn't mean they're right. Not even if they happen to be a Muslim.
    You're not a Muslim, you don't believe in the Qur'an or the prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam), I would certainly not expect you to trust the ahadith.
    Some were written during his life time even though this was prohibited. Their authencity has been verified by scholars and they are studied in comparison to the Qur'an and history.
    Hadith literally means a tale, a story or a narration. It is anything anyone has been recorded as saying whether it is relevant to the prophet's (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) teachings or not and whether it is authentic or not (they have been divided into categories according to their authencity). Sunnah literally means 'a clear path' and it refers to the actual teachings of the prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) when he taught the sahaba how to practice Islam.
    I don't quite understand why you are referring to 24:51? 33:59 does speak about women's dressing but not about a burqa.
    There is no such thing as a wahabbi or a salafi wahabbi.
    Exactly who are you referring to? There are locations where burqa, for instance, is demanded, but that is rare and there is no indication those people can be considered salafis. If they were salafis they wouldn't be making innovations.
    It is forbidden for women to wear either during hajj or umrah. They can, however, cover their faces with their clothing when around non-mahram men.
    This hadith is accepted by Muslims as indicating the details of a correct dress for a woman. But what does this have to do with burqa or niqab?
    No one who has half understood the Qur'an can draw any such conclusions from the ahadith. The Qur'an goes before the ahadith. If the Qur'an prohibits persecution of anyone because of their religion or their race then it is prohibited. There is no confusion about that to anyone except those deliberately living in denial and those extremely ignorant and unwilling to learn.

    The exact reason for persecution of Jews and Christians by Muslims today would require, I'm sure, a lot of analysing, and a lot of resources which I don't have. All I can say is it is highly unlikely the vast majority of the people persecuting anyone are the least bit concerned with the ahadith or even the Qur'an. It is not about religion. The persecution is about politics.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  5. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    So you believe Adam was 90 foot tall and those who reach Jannah will also be that?

    So only black dogs get rabies?

    That was a direct quote from Ed Husain House of Islam.

    But neither were actually written down before 200 years after Muhammad and were part of a body of writings which includes statements about Adam being 90 feet tall and black devil dogs. if I accept the authentication process for the one I must also accept the authentication process for the other.

    True but the principles in the verse do not necessarily exclude a burqa on the grounds of modesty and protection.

    Salafism is like the puritans were in Christianity. It claims to be recovering the early days and practice of Islam. But Saudi Salafis and many of the terrorists inspired by Salafis have distinct interpretations that may differ from the prophet. Ed Hussain called Osama Bin Laden a Salafi- Wahhabi (p 134). Ed Hussain also associated this branch of Islam with Kharijites.
    Some 22% of the Saudi population are Salafist. Wahhabis dominate the Saudi Kingdom. Ed Husain , who is not Salafist, used the term to denote a person of Salafist beliefs who is also practicing them in the manner of a Wahhabi. It seems that Salafi Wahhabists are not loved by much of the Muslim world even though the Saudis have spent some $200 bn promoting this world outlook.

    The burqa is demanded in Saudia Arabia. I agree this is not something that can be traced to the early practice of Islam but it appears purists in Saudi Arabia disagree.

    Hijab by country - Wikipedia

    Women do not wear black to Hajj nor a niqab but having just been to a womans clothes shopping site for hajj the white or minx praying dress options look pretty much the same except that a womans figure could be distinguished and the colour is different. The headcovering gives enough loose fabric to cover ones face also.

    The principle of modesty or protection found in Quran and haddiths could be generalised from but I agree this is not supporting black burqas or niqabs

    Yes I agree , the persecution of Christians was not a feature of early Islam and indeed the lack of persecution was part of the explanation for its success in conquering and maintaining control over Christians disaffected with Byzantine rule.

    But it is a standard feature of much of the Muslim world. So does politics rather than Islam now govern the lives of most Muslims?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  6. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    The ahadith indicates that, but I do not know what will happen.
    The word black in Arabic is used also to mean something bad. The order was also not limited to just dogs.
    No, and so it is permissable to wear a burqa, but it cannot be concluded to mean that burqa would be obligatory.
    Nonsense.
    It follows the Qur'an and the prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam).
    Which Salafis? How are terrorists 'inspired by salafis'?
    If they differ from the prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) they are incorrect.
    What Ed Hussain says is irrelevant. He is not a scholar and his views on the practice of Islam are questionable.
    Wikipedia says 22.9% but that source is Michael Izady's research and he also is not an Islamic scholar so I don't know why we should trust him to know what is salafism and who is a salafi, who is not.
    Did he explain what is a wahabbi or a salafi?
    Propaganda.
    False. Neither burqa nor niqab is required.
    It can be traced there, but not as an obligation.
    They can wear any color they like. Black is the most common.
    Why precisely black?
    Islam is not devoid of politics.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  7. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    90 foot tall Adam , heaven might be populated by giant versions of ourselves- got it.

    so a woman dressed in a non obligatory black burqa and frothing at the mouth ( under her niqab) is black bad. What about black Africans are they more likely to be bad than white men like myself?

    I see what you are saying here but I do not understand why so many women in these conservative cultures and even in London are wearing black burqas and niqabs. It is not simply a choice for these women.

    You clearly disagree with Ed Hussain who is arguing that Islam historically allowed for a greater degree of pluralism and flexibility than salafist interpretations shaped by Saudi Wahhabism have allowed for. He is being taken a lot more seriously by Western governments because he shares a version of Islam with which peaceful coexistence might be possible. He does define terms and I have abbreviated these in my reading of him. My understanding is that a Salafist is someone who is reaching back to the life of the prophet and the words of his companions for his understanding of Gods will in practice. A wahabbi grew out of this Salafist tradition but is shaped by the considerations and preferences of a particular Arab tribal reading of Salafism.

    No fraid not. The Salafi / Wahhabi outlook promoted to the tune of billions every year since the 70s is anti Western , anti Shia, and pro an armed Jihad. it is becoming a problem and the EU are looking at ways of closing down the funding of terror organisations in Europe springing from this.

    International propagation of Salafism and Wahhabism - Wikipedia

    Ok thanks for the education, women in black birqas are allowed to go to the Karba but not black rabid devil dogs and other bad black things. I am assuming that even the most saintly of Muslims on Hajj are under 90 feet tall.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  8. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Here are 50 more examples from Muslims who believe that the Quran alone is a sufficient guide for Muslims and are ashamed that Gods name is besmirched by association with such teachings.

    Quranaloneislam.net

    Here are 9 examples of these:

    1) Women are more likely to burn in hell and are deficient in intelligence.
    Sahih al-Bukhari. Book of Menstrual Periods, number 6

    2) Female genital mutilation recommended in hadiths

    Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 5:75; Abu Dawud, Adab 167:

    3) Wife beating OK
    Abu Dawud Book 11, hadith 2142:

    4) Contradictory texts: The prophet never urinated standing. The prophet urinated standing.

    COMPARE:
    Masnad Hanbal, 6/136, 192, 213)
    Sahih Al-Bukhari, 4/60, 62)

    5) Scientifically stupid: The earth is carried on a giant bull; when it shakes its head, then an earthquake occurs.

    Ibn Katheer 2/29; 50/1:

    6) Really bad advice:
    I heard Allah's Messenger (PBUH) saying, “Whoever takes seven 'Ajwa dates in the morning will not be affected by magic or poison on that day.”
    Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 76, Hadith 91

    7) Muhammad cannot have been this stupid: The Apostle of Allah (PBUH) said. When any one of you awakes up from sleep and performs ablution, he must clean his nose three times, for the devil spends the night in the interior of his nose.

    Sahih Muslim, Book 2, Hadith 31

    8) Racism
    Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 9, Book 89, Number 256:

    Narated By Anas bin Malik : Allah’s Apostle said, “You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin.”

    9) Anti- Semitism - call to genocide Jews.
    Sahih Muslim book 41, hadith 6981:

    Ibn ‘Umar reported the messenger of Allah as saying: “You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: “Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him!
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  9. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Many choose it for themselves. For others it's social pressure, for a few it's the law.
    There's still no such thing as wahabbism. Just because Saudi Arabia dictates some different laws doesn't mean they practice a different Islam. If they do wrong then the government of Saudi Arabia is to blame, not Islam and other people practicing Islam.
    So how did he define salafism and wahabbism?
    In other words, a Muslim.
    If it existed it would come from Wahhab, the person.
    Propaganda.
    Burqa is prohibited during Hajj and Umra. Dogs are indeed not allowed in - there are, however, several cats.
     
  10. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Because there will be more women among humankind. The quranists would know this and other prophecies if they followed the Qur'an.
    False.
    A weak hadith the meaning of which is that the man should not disclose for what his wife was to blame for.
    Recommendation is to urinate sitting /squatting.
    Not without quotations, sorry.
    Not related to the prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam).
    Good advice. It needs to be done with submission to Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta' alá).
    Bacteria.
    Respect and obey your leaders regardless their appearance.
    A prophecy.

    If you really want to know the truth I would recommend starting from the Qur'an.
     
  11. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    On the Size of Adam: An Exercise in Misrepresenting Muhammad's Teachings
     
  12. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Wahabbism is an internationally accepted description of a certain brand of Saudi Islam exported around the world. People know what we mean by that and it seems you do too but you resist the usage of the label. The only reason I can surmise is that you are one but resent being labelled as being a part of faction when you consider your position to be true Islam. There is much wrong with the Saudi governments approach which seems to contradict the original Islam taught by Muhammad and practiced by the first caliphs and his companions. This is especially true when it comes to the persecution and oppression of Jews and Christians.

    Are you denying that Saudi Arabia is financing the propagation of its own version of Islam around the world. The documentation for this is extensive. Are you denying the amounts which the article I quoted estimate at around 200 billion dollars?

    Thanks for the info. Must admit we have a cat not a dog but personal preferences aside I think a lot of dog owners in the West may not find this an attractive feature of Islam.
     
  13. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Statistically there are more men in the world than women. In the 10-40 window where Islam is mainly concentrated this is especially so. Also this seems like a misreading of the Haddith. The guy is clearly saying a woman is more likely to go to hell cause she is a woman.

    Human sex ratio - Wikipedia

    Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) does seem to be far more common in Muslim countries than elsewhere. It was also common among pre Islamic Arab cultures. But I agree Muhammad himself does not seem to have prescribed it. So its prevalence amongst Muslims is probably due to low levels of literacy, poverty and the dominance of tribal instincts over religious ones in many Muslim countries.

    When the hadith gets deleted from the collection we can ignore or dismiss it. Until then the plain fact is wife beating is prescribed in Islam.

    This is slightly ridiculous and in certain public latrines does that mean Muslims must only use the cubicles!! Given the low standards of cleanliness in many of these standing would definitely be better. Also the main point here is that the Hadiths contradict with one saying Muhammad says do it standing and the other do it sitting.

    There are passages in the bible that talk about God protecting Christians from snake bites. But no it is not good advice to think that if you eat 7 dates in the morning that you cannot be poisoned during the day. We could test this- eat 7 dates and then drink cyanide and tell me if you survive.

    There are good bacteria and there are bad ones. But if you believe in demonically possessed bacteria being something that collects in everyones nose overnight and need to be purged with a 3 fold action then I cannot help you. Jesus never had demon possessed bacteria in his nose in the morning. But he probably blew his nose occasionally.

    This was a racist comment.
    So you really believe that the extermination of the Jewish people is prophesized in Hadith. It seems that anti-Semitism is institutionalized in your core texts. I guess you support the Holocaust and the idea that the Jews in Israel should be thrown into the sea also.

    The Quran reads better than the Hadiths but it is wrong on the Trinity and Incarnation for example and quotes Christian heretical texts like the gospel of Thomas for example. There are parts of the Quran that I find very beautiful and even encouraging to my faith and there are other parts that are plain wrong.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  14. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Some believe it. The media echos it. Doesn't make it true. The truth is they all have a hard time defining it. When a word fails to be defined it can't claim to have a great meaning.
    No, I don't. Why don't you tell me?
    It's only used to cause division.
    What is this true Islam?
    Yeah.
    Those are the least persecuted there. Do you ever think about the Muslims?
    I have never seen evidence of that, not to mention, again, that I have not heard a definition for that.
    What kind of documentation? Can I see it somehow?
    Was it a Wikipedia article? I don't doubt Saudi Arabia "funds Islam" around the world. I think it's great.
    Who cares? If they're non-Muslims they can't enter Makkah either.
     
  15. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    I don't know what window you're talking about but this refers to the whole human kind, from all times. That's why I said there will be
    ....
    There are physical benefits in peeing sitting down.

    Question is did someone see him urinating standing up? But is it relevant? Maybe his leg hurt? Maybe it's a lie, a misunderstanding?
    That's not what the hadith means.
    That's your invention.
    If you like it so, think it so.
    No. The hadith doesn't speak of all Jews, but a specific disbelieving group of Jews.
    Where is that in the Qur'an? Did it ever occur to you that if they are from the same God there might be similarities in the revelations?
     
  16. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Wahhabism (Arabic: الوهابية‎, al-Wahhābiya(h)) is an Islamic doctrine and religious movement founded by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab
    1) Literal reading of Quran and Hadiths
    2) Believes in an armed Jihad
    3) Supportive of Saudi monarchy
    4) a religious revivalist movement that works to bring Muslims back from what it believes are foreign accretions that have corrupted Islam
    5) coercion should be used to enforce following of sharia
    6) a zealous tendency toward takfir (excommunication), which bears a resemblance to the Kharijites
    7) a strong opposition to mysticism ie Sufis
    8) justification for considering the majority of Muslims of Arabia to be unbelievers, and for waging war on them
    9) it was imitation of past judicial opinion in the face of clear contradictory evidence from hadith or Qur'anic text that Ibn Abd al-Wahhab condemned
    Wahhabism - Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  17. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    There are more men in the world than women. In Saudi Arabia there are 30% more men!!!
    Your Hadiths regard women as intellectually deficient. But this is rubbish.

    Not in an unclean public toilet there are not.

    The Hadiths contradict is the point.

    Really

    All Jews are disbelievers when it comes to Wahabi understandings of Islam as are all Christians. So genocide is OK based on this Hadith and our lack of faith in what Wahabis call true Islam?!

    There are parts of the Quran which I consider quite inspired. But there are other parts which are plain wrong. Saying that Jesus is not the Son of God, did not die on a cross, and that the Trinity is Father, Son and Mary for instance are all obvious errors.

    In essence Islam offers no redemption if it denies the cross, no intimate connection with God if it denies the incarnation and does not even know who God is if it denies the Trinity.
     
  18. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Wikipedia again? While that's still not really a definition you get points for finding examples of supposed characteristics. Now, how many Muslims are there outside of terrorist organizations who think this way? And what other labels could we mark them by? Ever heard of khawarijies? (not sure if you've mentioned that)
     
  19. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    At all times...
    No, they're still there.
    Okay.
    I don't know what is a wahabbi understanding of Islam. In Islamic sense Jews and Christians are disbelievers, yes. They don't believe in the Qur'an or Muhammad. In a broader sense they are not, generally speaking, disbelievers.
    The Qur'an doesn't say that the trinity is father, son and Mary. You've been reading too much propaganda and too little the Qur'an itself.
    Nonsense.
     
  20. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    According to C18 Hanafi scholar Ibn Abidin the Saudi Wahhabis are Kharijites.
     
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