Abraham was justified by the work of faith

[Uber Genius]

In actual fact, the converted Christian believer makes it his business to follow God's moral laws (not the Mosaic ceremonial law) in the same way that the Judiasts do, except the attitude and motivation is totally different.

Why are you falsifying the Biblical claims!

Justification is the topic not sanctification by conflating the two you are attempting to confuse people. Which is immoral.

If you are not aware that you are conflating well that is another I-word altogether.

Please stay on topic!

Justification is by faith alone!

 

[Uber Genius]

It truly is not what work we do for God, but instead what work we allow Him to do through us. We are servants of the kingdom of heaven just as Jesus taught us to be. Therefore, if we are in Christ we will simply do the will of the Father and He gets all of the glory and honor. And how will we know what we are to do? The Spirit will lead us in the paths of righteousness.

So we are justified by faith and not works?

Secondly we are sanctified by listening and obeying God (HS)?

By making the distinction between justification and sanctification there is no conflating:

How one enters into a relationship with God and

How one lives one's life once they have become a follower of Christ and been given a new nature that is able to do good works.

 

[Uber Genius]

Faith without doing the commandments(WORKS) of Christ is dead.

But let's be clear here: James is contrasting the beleif that even demons have with trust of true Christians. He would agree with Paul who says in Ephesians 2:8-10:

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork,created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

James is doing a postmortem and saying if I see no evidence of a life changed from within then I have no reason that one has been saved by grace. Hebrews will make this point even more infactically.

Salvation>sanctification(over time)>works that God created for us to do.

There is no reversing the order.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why are you falsifying the Biblical claims!

Justification is the topic not sanctification by conflating the two you are attempting to confuse people. Which is immoral.

If you are not aware that you are conflating well that is another I-word altogether.

Please stay on topic!

Justification is by faith alone!

Demonstrate that what I have said does not comply with God's Word and I will back down. The Word says that without holiness no one will see the Lord. Holiness is what we do in response to what the Lord has done for us. James says that faith without works is dead. Saying that one is saved and then goes on to do anything they like, including all their favourite sins, is just antinomianism and not a true walk in the Spirit.

 

[Uber Genius]

Demonstrate that what I have said does not comply with God's Word and I will back down. The Word says that without holiness no one will see the Lord. Holiness is what we do in response to what the Lord has done for us. James says that faith without works is dead. Saying that one is saved and then goes on to do anything they like, including all their favourite sins, is just antinomianism and not a true walk in the Spirit.

Gladly.

Your quote that I claimed was misrepresenting Christian belief is as follows:

In actual fact, the converted Christian believer makes it his business to follow God's moral laws (not the Mosaic ceremonial law) in the same way that the Judiasts do, except the attitude and motivation is totally different.

But we have a clear text whose entire subject is how "God's moral laws - the ceremonial law) is not at all in the same way as the Judaists do." So its context is perfect to resolve our dispute, Paul writes the following in Gal. 3:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Here we see the Law is associated with:

being under a curse
No one is justified by the law

"the converted Christian believer makes it his business to follow God's moral laws"

But Gal 3:24 says,

" So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

Sp the law just demonstrates to Jew that we can't be justified by keeping the law or being moral.

So " For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law."

Paul takes up this argument again in chapter 5 saying:

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

So he finishes by contrasting life by the spirit and life by obedience to God's moral commands.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now we are to live life by the spirit which will produce:

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit."

So we do produce good works. But they are of no value towards our salvation. And those works are a function of walking by the spirit not obedience to God's moral law.

These are significant differences.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Gladly.

Your quote that I claimed was misrepresenting Christian belief is as follows:



But we have a clear text whose entire subject is how "God's moral laws - the ceremonial law) is not at all in the same way as the Judaists do." So its context is perfect to resolve our dispute, Paul writes the following in Gal. 3:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Here we see the Law is associated with:

being under a curse
No one is justified by the law

"the converted Christian believer makes it his business to follow God's moral laws"

But Gal 3:24 says,

" So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

Sp the law just demonstrates to Jew that we can't be justified by keeping the law or being moral.

So " For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law."

Paul takes up this argument again in chapter 5 saying:

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

So he finishes by contrasting life by the spirit and life by obedience to God's moral commands.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now we are to live life by the spirit which will produce:

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit."

So we do produce good works. But they are of no value towards our salvation. And those works are a function of walking by the spirit not obedience to God's moral law.

These are significant differences.

What is the difference between walking in the Spirit and obeying God's moral law? If God's moral law says that I need to avoid fornication, but I don't need to follow it because I am walking in the Spirit, then if I go out every Friday and Saturday night, pick up some floosie and have my wicked way with her, then turn up to Church on Sunday, sing the hymns, put on the Christian badge, and say I am saved by grace through faith, would I not be an utter hypocrite?

 

[Uber Genius]

obeying God's moral law? If God's moral law says that I need to avoid fornication, but I don't need to follow it because I am walking in the Spirit, then if I go out every Friday and Saturday night, pick up some floosie and have my wicked way with her, then turn up to Church on Sunday, sing the hymns, put on the Christian badge, and say I am saved by grace through faith, would I not be an utter hypocrite?

Everything. God's moral law is a small subset of what we are called to do as Christians.

So imaging that the circle on the left represents Life by the Spirit. The red represents life by the Law. The intersection represents both proscriptions and prescriptions in common to both.

Notice the red on the right. That is things that were important to the law but not important any more. Sabbath keeping from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday for instance. Circumcision, not eating food sacrificed to idols, etc.

Further, the white circle adds proscriptions and prescriptions that weren't in the Law. We are called to help the old person find her car in the parking lot or take groceries to our neighbor who is islamic. Or we are to help someone rebuild a house after a hurricane. So by equating the two (Law and Spirit) because they have similar features (described as Good, from God, moral prohibitions and prescriptions) is to miss their dramatic differences.

Finally, by conflating the two as similar is to steer the less mature believers towards legalism and becoming partakers and later teachers of false doctrine. Many cult groups are have their origin in misunderstanding the nature of Paul's damning critique of misunderstanding the purpose of the Law and Law keeping for the Christian.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Everything. God's moral law is a small subset of what we are called to do as Christians.
View attachment 252440
So imaging that the circle on the left represents Life by the Spirit. The red represents life by the Law. The intersection represents both proscriptions and prescriptions in common to both.

Notice the red on the right. That is things that were important to the law but not important any more. Sabbath keeping from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday for instance. Circumcision, not eating food sacrificed to idols, etc.

Further, the white circle adds proscriptions and prescriptions that weren't in the Law. We are called to help the old person find her car in the parking lot or take groceries to our neighbor who is islamic. Or we are to help someone rebuild a house after a hurricane. So by equating the two (Law and Spirit) because they have similar features (described as Good, from God, moral prohibitions and prescriptions) is to miss their dramatic differences.

Finally, by conflating the two as similar is to steer the less mature believers towards legalism and becoming partakers and later teachers of false doctrine. Many cult groups are have their origin in misunderstanding the nature of Paul's damning critique of misunderstanding the purpose of the Law and Law keeping for the Christian.

I understand and have no problem with that. But the issue is not in the keeping of the moral parts of the Law, because both Jews and Christians keep the same moral laws. It is all in how and why each side keeps the Law. Jews keep the Law out of a sense of duty and the expectation of blessing if they keep it and a penalty if they don't. They keep the Law out of selfish motives to keep them out of Hell. Christian keep the law because they love it and love God and they enjoy keeping the Law because it is good and holy and so they value it for itself. Even if a Christian found himself in Hell, he would still keep the Law and find ways of leading lost souls to Christ because he would want to bring glory to God even in that place.

In fact, heaven and hell become non-issues to a converted Christian. They are at peace no matter where the Holy Spirit leads them. Once having been converted, there is no fear of the future or of judgment, so they are now free to do what they love most - serve God, love Jesus, and enjoy keeping the Law which brings holiness into their lives.

 

[david shelby]

If you read Genesis 15, does it really talk about Abraham being justified by faith or Abraham applying theodicy by faith? I.e. that Abraham believed God and counted it to God as righteousness. That is, despite God having promised to make his descendants as numerous as the sand of the sea, at that point, he was still childless, so Abraham had to decided whether to consider God just or not, and decided to consider God to be just even in advance of God actually keeping God's promise. Paul seems to have taken the passage a bit out of its context. Its too bad James didn't specifically address that point.