About Sabbath

Bible Highlighter said:

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1). “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5). “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24). 28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

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To have an interpretation of the scriptures that Gods’ 10 commandments are no longer a requirement for Christian living for gentile believers has Paul contradicting himself when he goes to the Corinthians believers after the Jerusalem meeting and says to them in 1 Corinthians 7:19 “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 shows that the chapter context being discussed here is over the question “Is the “shadow law” of “circumcision” a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers. This was the question v2 says that Paul and Barnabas went to discuss in Jerusalem. Not if the 10 commandments are requirement for Christian living. Circumcision is not one of God’s 10 commandments. It is a “shadow law” from the book of Moses that points to a new heart by faith under the old covenant. It is a physical law pointing to the new covenant law of the Spirit as shown in Romans 2:28-29

What are these shadow laws of circumcision foretold in the old and new testament scriptures?

Deuteronomy 10:16 [16] CIRCUMCISE THERFORE THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITH YOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

Jeremiah 4:4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Note: new covenant fulfillment of the shadows of the ceremonial ordinance of circumcision pointing the circumcision of the heart through faith in Christ…

Romans 2:25-29 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

1 Corinthians 7:19 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT promise to Gods ISRAEL who are all those who through faith believe and follow God's Word…

Hebrews 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS [NOTE: THE SHADOW OF CIRCUMCSION]: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

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CONCLUSION; Circumcision is not one of God’s 10 commandments. Acts of the Apostles 15 was never over the question is the 10 commandments are requirement for Christian living but is the “shadow law” of “circumcision” a requirement for the salvation of new gentile believers. This is also confirmed by Paul latter after the decision of Jerusalem when he says to the Corinthian believers “circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.” So these scriptures do no support a view that God’s 10 commandments are no longer a requirement for Christian living.

more to come...

Bible Highlighter said:

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11). “But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

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This for some reason seems to be a confusing passage of scripture for some but it is not difficult if we follow context and what Paul has already stated in other passages. This scripture actually has nothing to do with God’s 10 commandments being abolished. That is a false teaching and contradicts what Paul says in other scriptures. Let's examine this interpretation.

The ministration of death is the penalty for sin because according to the scriptures he wages of sin is death according to Paul but the gift of God is eternal life through JESUS Christ *Romans 6:23. It is the ministration of condemnation and death that is done away in Christ because he paid the price for our sins in those who believe God's Word and have been made free to walk in God’s Spirit *John 3:16; Galatians 5:16.

If we walk in God’s Spirit according to the scriptures we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *Galatians 5:16. In fact if we walk in God’s Spirit, God’s law according to Pail is established in us because of God’s forgiveness for our sins and the scriptures are fulfilled in Romans 8:1-4 [1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.[2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

So having an interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 that God’s law (10 commandments) have been abolished is a false one dear friend. It is the ministration of condemnation and sins penalty that has been abolished in those who believe and follow God’s Word.

Need more evidence?

An interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 of God’s 10 Commandments being abolished has Paul contradicting himself in Romans 3:31. Here lets show how by comparing 2 Corinthians 3:7 where some interpret this scripture as God’s 10 commandments being abolished with Romans 3:31 where Paul state God’s law is not to be abolished but established through faith…

PARALLEL OF ROMANS 3:31

ROMANS 3:31 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Are we (G2673) eliminating The Written Law by faith? God forbid, but we are (G2476) establishing The Written Law.

ROMANS 3:31 (International Standard Version) Do we, then, (G2673) abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we (G2476) uphold the Law.

ROMANS 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make (G2673) void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we (G2476) establish the law.

Note the Greek word used here for void/eliminating/abolish is G2673 in the Greek

ROMANS 3:31 (Greek) νόμον οὖν (G2673) καταργοῦμενην διὰ τῆς πίστεως μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον (G2476) ἱστῶμεν

Note the same Greek word is used for ROMANS 3:31 is also used in 2 CORITHIANS 3:7…

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (International Standard Version) Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (G2673) because the glory was fading away from it,

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) But if the ministry of death in The Scripture carved in stone was with glory, so that the children of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face (G2673) that which has been canceled ,

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be (G2673) done away

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Greek) Εἰ δὲ ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου ἐν γράμμασιν ἐντετυπωμένη ἐν λίθοις ἐγενήθη ἐν δόξῃ, ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι ἀτενίσαι τοὺς υἱοὺς Ἰσραὴλ εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον Μωϋσέως διὰ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ τὴν (G2673) καταργουμένην

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Note the same word used in ROMANS 3:31 for abolish is used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 as shown above and is also translated as abolished in some English translations. Let’s look at the Greek word meaning that both scriptures use…

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2673 καταργέω
Καταργουμένην; katargeō From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 2673: καταργέω
καταργέω, κατάργω; future καταργήσω; 1 aorist κατήργησα; perfect κατήργηκα; passive, present καταργοῦμαι; perfect κατήργημαι; 1 aorist κατηργήθην; 1 future καταργηθήσομαι; causative of the verb ἀργέω, equivalent to ἀργόν (i. e. ἀεργον (on the accent cf. Chandler § 444)) ποιῶ; frequent with Paul, who uses it 25 times (elsewhere in N. T. only twice (Luke, Heb.), in the Sept. 4 times (2 Esdr., see below)); 1. to render idle, unemployed, inactive, inoperative: τήν γῆν, to deprive of its strength, make barren (A. V. cumber), Luke 13:7; to cause a person or a thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power (A. V. bring to nought, make of none effect): τί, Romans 3:3; 1 Corinthians 1:28; τινα, 1 Corinthians 2:6 (but in passive); diabolic powers, 1 Corinthians 15:24 (Justin Martyr, Apology 2, 6); Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2:8; τόν θάνατον, 2 Timothy 1:10 (Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]); τόν διάβολον, Hebrews 2:14; passive 1 Corinthians 15:26; to make void, τήν ἐπαγγελίαν, Galatians 3:17; passive Romans 4:14. 2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish: τί, 1 Corinthians 6:13; 1 Corinthians 13:11; τόν νόμον, Romans 3:31; Ephesians 2:15; τόν καιρόν τοῦ ἀνόμου, Epistle of Barnabas 15, 5 [ET]; passive πόλεμος καταργεῖται ἐπουρανίων καί ἐπιγείων, Ignatius ad Eph. 13, 2 [ET]; ἵνα καταργηθῇ τό σῶμα τῆς ἁμαρτίας, that the body of sin might be done away, i. e. not the material of the body, but the body so far forth as it is an instrument of sin; accordingly, that the body may cease to be an instrument of sin, Romans 6:6. Passive to cease, pass away, be done away: of things, Galatians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 13:8, 10; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13f; of persons, followed by ἀπό τίνος, to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from, anyone; to terminate all contact with one (a pregnant construction, cf. Winers Grammar, 621 (577); Buttmann, 322 (277)): ἀπό τοῦ Χριστοῦ, Galatians 5:4 (on the aorist cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 5 b.); ἀπό τοῦ νόμου, Romans 7: (2 (Relz omits τοῦ νόμου)),6. The word is rarely met with in secular authors, as Euripides, Phoen. 753 κατάργειν χερα, to make idle, i. e. to leave the hand unemployed; Polybius quoted in Suidas (s. v. κατηργηκεναι) τούς καιρούς, in the sense of to let slip, leave unused; in the Sept. four times for Chaldean בַּטֵּל, to make to cease, i. e. restrain, check, hinder, 2 Esdr. 4:21, 23 2Esdr. 5:5 2Esdr. 6:8.

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CONCLUSION: So as can be shown above an interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 that God’s 10 commandments are abolished has PAUL contradicting himself in ROMANS 3:31. The correct context of 2 Corinthians 3:7 is the ministration of condemnation that is to be abolished by the ministration of the Spirit as shown in 2 Corinthians 3:3-13. So nope not saying what you are dear friend. Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 has Paul contradicting himself when he says In Romans 3:31 Do we then (G2673) abolish the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we (G2476) establish the law.

Hope this is helpful and can be a blessing to all those who love Gods' Word.

LoveGodsWord said:

True, but Gentiles that stay Gentiles do not enter the kingdom of heaven and neither do they know and follow Gods' Word.

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Gentiles who join in the kingdom will worship God in Spirit since God is Spirit,so no need of a place or particular day..you can worship him anytime, anyday because He is near and this is the freedom we have through knowing God...

pasifika said:

Gentiles who join in the kingdom will worship God in Spirit since God is Spirit,so no need of a place or particular day..you can worship him anytime, anyday because He is near and this is the freedom we have through knowing God...

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No one loves God according to John or Jesus by breaking God's commandments *1 John 5:2-4; John 14:15; John 15:10; Matthew 22:36-40. Those who knowingly break God's commandment according to John do not know God in 1 John 2:3-4 because those who know God do not knowingly practice sin in 1 John 3:6-9. So to claim we know God by knowingly breaking anyone of God's commandments is not biblical according to the scriptures *James 2:10-11 as God only gives His Spirit to those who believe and follow his Word according to Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

pasifika said:

Gentiles who join in the kingdom will worship God in Spirit since God is Spirit,so no need of a place or particular day..you can worship him anytime, anyday because He is near and this is the freedom we have through knowing God...

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Our lives are to be lived to His praise through Christ. Our very existence exuberates this and is the worship in which our God desires through Christ. However the Sabbath is the Day in which God blessed and sanctified. In this Day, the 7th we are called to rest because he blessed and sanctified it in honor of our Creation and He himself rested on it.
He blessed and sanctified it on the Seventh Day and it remains so to this day.

Sketcher said:

Not all of them, Lutherans for instance. My view is informed by the Lutheran view.

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I should have added Martin Luther to my list -- sorry about missing it.

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Martin Luther
From the book “Explanation of Martin Luther's Small Catechism”, released by the book committee of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America,

• “Repentance is the sadness we experience after committing a specific sin as well as the resolution we then make not to sin in such a way again. Such sadness is the feeling or awareness in our heart or conscience that we have disobeyed the Law of God (the 10 Commandments: Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 6). Many people hear the Law, but because they do not feel the effect or power of the Law in their hearts, experience no sadness, and so are not truly repentant....

• “In reality, regret is the sorrow or torment experienced by the conscience (whether it wants to or not!) when properly addressed or confronted by the Law.

In the past it was also taught that sin was simply an improper action against man-made institutions. Seldom were sins addressed that were committed against the moral law (the 10 Commandments).

Then we turn to chapter two of the same book and read:

• “Nowadays there is a novel idea afoot! According to the promoters of this idea, the Law (that is, the 10 Commandments) should be completely removed from the Church. This is nothing else but deplorable and irreverent.

• The entire Bible teaches that it is the Law which must initiate repentance.....Sin and death are not exposed by a Word of grace and comfort, but only by the Law.

• The Spirit first rebukes the world because of sin ( John 16:8) so that He can then teach faith in Christ, that is, the forgiveness of sins. Paul in Romans held to this way of teaching when he first taught that all people are sinners and then afterwards, that they must become righteous only through Jesus Christ (Romans 3:23, 28).

The "Sabbath" doctrine has two simple components.

1. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral Law of God that defines what sin IS AND is applicable to all mankind even in the NT.
2. The Sabbath commandment cannot be "edited" by Tradition.

almost ALL of the back-and-forth arguments are on easy-simple-part 1 where Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic, in almost all major denomination - AGREE.

Even the Orthodox church confesses it as now noted on page 2 of this thread.

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Orthodox church

From The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com

65. Where may we find the elements of the doctrine of charity?

In the Ten Commandments of the Law of God.

490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.

491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.

492. What means the division of the Ten Commandments into two tables?

This: that they contain two kinds of love--love to God, and love to our neighbor; and prescribe two corresponding kinds of duties.
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Notice that even the Orthodox church confesses "the TEN" -- not merely "NINE" and affirms that they are not "just for Jews" in it's explicit statement above.

11 pages of debate/discussion and almost all of it on "NINE and NOT TEN" ideas or else "all TEN Just for Jews" - which are the very points where the Orthodox statement above agrees with SDAs and other Sabbath keeping groups.

An entire thread where it is precisely THAT side of the discussion that gets hammered by those opposing the SDA and other Sabbath keeping groups... How is it left for us to defend your own side of this discussion when it comes to "the first part" of this doctrine.

(what follows is an example of looking at the second part of the debate - as if all this discussion rejecting "the TEN" never happened)

prodromos said:

498. In which of the Ten Commandments are we taught our duties towards God?

In the first four.

499. What are these duties?
In the first commandment we are taught to know and worship the true God.
In the second, to abstain from false worship.
In the third, not to sin against God's worship even by word.
In the fourth, to keep a certain order in the time and acts of God's worship.

...

536. Why is it commanded to keep the seventh, rather than any other day, holy to God?
Because God in six days made the world, and on the seventh day rested from the work of creation.

537. Is the Sabbath kept in the Christian Church?
It is not kept, strictly speaking, as a holy day; but still in memory of the creation of the world, and in continuation of its original observance, it is distinguished from the other days of the week by a relaxation of the rule for fasting.
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So the "edit" is that one is "obeying the 4th commandment" by ignoring God's specific statement Ex 20:10 "the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" where "He BLESSED the SEVENTH day and made it holy" Ex 20:11 -- and change that to "first day".

My point was that we agree on the fact of the TEN - all TEN still applicable so that the question is resonable which says "How, then, does the Christian Church obey the fourth commandment?"

This entire thread is 99% in debate about "the TEN" and almost 0% on editing one of the commandments.

So where are the non-SDAs and non-Sabbath keeping groups in defending "the TEN" when that is the focus of almost the entire thread???

Here again an obvious easy point - that is "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

dqhall said:

The stonings for healing during Sabbath are gone.
The animal sacrifices are gone. God did not want sacrifices.

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As already pointed out on "page 1" and 2 of this thread as follows

BobRyan said:

Westminster Confession of Faith -

Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]

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And here we can see it from the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19

BobRyan said:

Baptist Confession of Faith -- as formatted by C.H.Spurgeon


The Law of God - Baptist Confession of Faith: Section 19


1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

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dqhall said:

People worked in shifts, that is how the power stays on ....

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No doubt essential services were also done - like temple guards and guards at the gates on Sabbath - even in the OT without any complaints from God or His prophets in that regard.

BobRyan said: ↑
No wonder it is the gentiles in Acts 13 - asking for more Gospel preaching "the next Sabbath"

1. They did not ask for "more gospel preaching TOMORROW on week-day-1" they asked for more Gospel preaching "next Sabbath"
2. Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" Gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews.
3. Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8
4. Lev 23:3 - the weekly Sabbath is a "day of holy convocation" they were in "holy convocation" ... the Sabbath commandment calls for rest and fellowship with God - as does Lev 23:3.

pasifika said:

Preaching on Jewish synagogue in which they met on every Sabbath day..Gentiles don’t worship on any particular day..

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Gentiles hearing the Gospel "every Sabbath" and Gentiles asking for more Gospel preaching "next Sabbath" instead of "tomorrow on week-day-1" - are details we should just ignore while supposing that these gentiles that just heard and accepted Gospel teaching are still ignoring the Word of God??

- they "just so happen" to be acting in a manner showing compliance with it??

How is that even remotely exegesis of the text??

Gentiles are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Isaiah 5:6-8 God's house of prayer for "ALL nations" not "just the Jews". Even the majority of Bible scholars in non-SDA non-Sabbath keeping denominations admit to these easy Bible details.

BobRyan said:

The NEW Covenant is in the OT

Jer 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

Exegesis informs us that the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers included the moral law of God - the TEN written on stone at Sinai.


And is verbatim - "unchanged" in the NT -- Heb 8:6-12



They did not have the nation-covenant -- they were members of other nations. But they had the New Covenant "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 by which Enoch is taken to heaven without seeing death (Heb 1)

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John Mullally said:

Jesus declares the start of the NT in Luke 22:20 and it is later than you imply:

Luke 22:17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

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John Mullally said:

Keeping the Sabbath is a Ceremonial law and it can only be considered a Moral law to the ones to whom God requires it.

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So then gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8 - its scope is "for all nations"

Sabbath application in the OT is for "All mankind" specifically stated in Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

John Mullally said:

Per the decision of the Jerusalem Council (led by Peter, Paul, and James) in Acts 15:23-29, it was not required of the Gentile believers.

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Acts 15 does not mention Sabbath, does not mention

• "do not take God's name in vain"
  
• "Love God with all your heart"
• "Honor your parents"
  
• , does not say that what the Bible calls "the TEN Commandments" is now "downsized to NINE"
• , Does not say the Bible had been downsized to one paragraph for gentiles

BobRyan said:

The "new way" is same one that enabled Moses and Elijah to stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 - before the cross. Jeremiah calls it "the New Covenant" as does Paul in Heb 8:6-12. The "one gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 in both OT and NT by which all are saved or lost if they reject it.

But editing The Commandments of God - was never an option.

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Yes, it was. Because that's how it was experienced by the church because that's how God did it, apparently quite consistent with the "new way". And it wasn't just the church in the west but in the east as well. And anyone can-and multitudes have- picked up the bible centuries later and proved little more than that that they could read-but not necessarily understand-which is why they often plausibly disagree on many points, all reading the same scripture.

fatherforgivethem said:

I'm a new Christian. There is 5 months or something since I started 'truly' following Jesus and God, obeying Him, learning, etc. Everything is going well, I'm learning so much. But now, looks like everything is running out of my control, I don't know what to do or to follow anymore, if I should do X or no, if I should follow Y or no.
Only one thing remains clear to me: I believe in Jesus, God, Holy Spirit and Bible.

There is many things right now I don't know what to follow or do. But in this thread, I wanna focus in just one of them: the Sabbath / the 4th commandment. It is making me desperate, overthink over and over and get worried so often.


What should I do?

I have already read the Bible arguments from SDA and they look really good. But I also read the Bible arguments from people that do not follow the Sabbath and they also look really good.
Since both really look good, I thought that the Bible is contradicting itself, but I truly believe in the Bible, I just don't know what to follow.




Arguments from SDA:
1- The 4th commandment that God gave to Moses
2- Matthew 17:3 - I don't know exactly if this is an argument, but I saw some using it.
3- Mark 7:6-13
4- Luke 16:31
5- Deuteronomy 8:11


Arguments that don't think Christians need to follow Sabbath:
1- Romans 14:5,6
2- Galatians 5:2-8
3- Galatians 4:9-11
4- Colossians 2:14-17



I am personally more inclined to the non-Sabbath verses, because they look more solid and direct on what message/meaning they are trying to get across and it is also aiming for Christians that are not Jewish, but the SDA arguments are also good.

Please, don't use articles and texts that are not from the Bible to make an argument.
And don't use "if your conscience says to..." arguments, they are so shallow, and this is a subject that is directed connected to God and Jesus and defines if you go to hell or no, because even if you do every other thing correctly, if God's Truth is that no matter who you are you should follow Sabbath, then I would say it is a condemning subject.

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no one keeps the sabbath (even the ones who say they do). If we actually read the sabbath law it is not just about ourselves it is about our household (slaves/servants and animals) and all under our care. it is also about those residing in our communities and if one of those were not to keep the sabbath then no one keeps the sabbath.

Sabbath law summed up is don't work and don't cause others to work. The first part is easy, the last part not so much as in our modern society we are dependant upon systems that are driven by a workforce and when we participate in them unnecessarily on the sabbath we break the letter of the law. Things like electricity, mail, internet, cell phones, tv, driving, restaurants, banks, etc... The moment we participate in these things unnecessarily we are participating in a workforce driving those systems that do not value the sabbath (now in case you've lost focus, I'm speaking of unnecessary participation, I'm not talking about shutting down hospitals or turning off heat in the middle winter, again keyword "unnecessary")

So we cannot keep the sabbath all we can keep is a theme of the Sabbath which is not good enough. However this is sort of the point, the law is unkeepable which is why Christ came to free us from the law but the law also points to this freedom. If we look at the sabbath law again it says that even slaves/servants and animals must rest. This is an important mark of the sabbath as slaves/servants and animals have no rights and are unable to rest unless they are given rest. That last part is important because in a system of grace we cannot obtain grace ourselves and it must be given to us. This is the sabbath of God; sabbath is salvation. You may keep a day based on your personal convictions or in keeping with traditions but that day itself cannot give you God's rest and this is the rest we should be seeking, the rest that only God can give and we have no authority or means to take ourselves.

BobRyan said: ↑
The "new way" is same one that enabled Moses and Elijah to stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 - before the cross. Jeremiah calls it "the New Covenant" as does Paul in Heb 8:6-12. The "one gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 in both OT and NT by which all are saved or lost if they reject it.

But editing The Commandments of God - was never an option.

fhansen said:

Yes, it was. Because that's how it was experienced by the church because that's how God did it, apparently quite consistent with the "new way". And it wasn't just the church in the west but in the east as well. And anyone can-and multitudes have- picked up the bible centuries later and proved little more than that that they could read-but not necessarily understand-which is why they often plausibly disagree on many points, all reading the same scripture.

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The "Sabbath" doctrine has two simple components.

1. All TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral Law of God that defines what sin IS AND is applicable to all mankind even in the NT.
2. The Sabbath commandment cannot be "edited" by Tradition.

almost ALL of the back-and-forth arguments are on easy-simple-part 1 where Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic, in almost all major denomination - AGREE.

So then when it comes to the "easy part" the Catholic Church is also a good example of a denomination that accepts the Bible details in that particular aspect of this discussion. (as I will also show below). Your post deals with second part of the subject as noted above.

My point recently says that if you look at 12 pages of discussion so far 99.99% of it is opposing the SDA and Sabbath groups - arguing that the first statement about affirming "all TEN being still in place for all mankind" - is the main point of difference. As your comment shows - this is NOT a problem for the Catholic Church scholars - they don't deny "the TEN" still being for all mankind. (Your post focuses only on the second point of the topic)

Yet how "odd" that it is only the SDA and Sabbath keeping groups that are defending that "all TEN" point on this thread

Catholic Catechism shows that all ten - the Decalogue are a single unit and form grave obligation for all mankind - to this very day.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2

2076 By his life and by his preaching Jesus attested to the permanent validity of the Decalogue.
2077 The gift of the Decalogue is bestowed from within the covenant concluded by God with his people. God's commandments take on their true meaning in and through this covenant.
2078 In fidelity to Scripture and in conformity with Jesus' example, the tradition of the Church has always acknowledged the primordial importance and significance of the Decalogue.
2079 The Decalogue forms an organic unity in which each "word" or "commandment" refers to all the others taken together. To transgress one commandment is to infringe the whole Law (cf. Jas 2:10-11).

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Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2
2080 The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason.

2081 The Ten Commandments, in their fundamental content, state grave obligations. However, obedience to these precepts also implies obligations in matter which is, in itself, light.

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From; The Catholic Ten Commandments


Again, the Ten Commandments are a description of the basic freedom from sin that is necessary to live as a Christian.

They are a minimum level of living, below which we must not go.

The Ten Commandments and Catholicism have been bound together since the time of Christ. In fact, Jesus refers to the Ten Commandments and assures their validity in his dialog with the rich young man in Matthew’s Gospel (Mt 19:16-21). The Catechism refers to this in item #2052.

It’s important to note that each Commandment is simply a summary of a whole category of actions. Don’t be legalistic, searching for a way around them because their wording doesn’t fit you perfectly!

• For example, “bearing false witness against your neighbor” covers any kind of falsehood: perjury, lying, slander, detraction, rash judgment, etc.

The Catholic Ten Commandments are linked together to form a coherent whole. If you break one of them, you’re guilty of breaking all of them (Catechism, #2069).

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fhansen said:

And anyone can-and multitudes have- picked up the bible centuries later and proved little more than that that they could read-but not necessarily understand-which is why they often plausibly disagree on many points, all reading the same scripture.

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Is it your view then - that it is outright dangerous/risky/wrong for someone who is not a scholar to read the Bible and judge right-from-wrong by it - when it comes to doctrine?

If so how then do they judge an Apostle as in Acts 17:11

Acts 17:11 "they studied he scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

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If so how then do they judge an Apostle or even an Angel from heaves as in Gal 1:6-9??

Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (Apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

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If so - how would they do as Christ did in Matt 7 and slam-hammer established church tradition sola-scriptura as seen in Mark 7 when it comes to the one true nation-church established by God at Sinai?

Mark 7:6-13
6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

LoveGodsWord said:

No one loves God according to John or Jesus by breaking God's commandments *1 John 5:2-4; John 14:15; John 15:10; Matthew 22:36-40. Those who knowingly break God's commandment according to John do not know God in 1 John 2:3-4 because those who know God do not knowingly practice sin in 1 John 3:6-9. So to claim we know God by knowingly breaking anyone of God's commandments is not biblical according to the scriptures *James 2:10-11 as God only gives His Spirit to those who believe and follow his Word according to Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

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What commandments that I broke if I love my neighbor? All commandments are sum up in this one commandment love one another...love doesn't have to write down on a list to follow but is a matter of conscience..as Paul stated in 1John " Anyone who knows the good that they ought to do and don't do it for that person is a sin..

If you talking about the 7th day Sabbath commandment then you're mistaken, my Sabbath day is called "Today" Not the 7th day..Hebrews 4...

HIM said:

Our lives are to be lived to His praise through Christ. Our very existence exuberates this and is the worship in which our God desires through Christ. However the Sabbath is the Day in which God blessed and sanctified. In this Day, the 7th we are called to rest because he blessed and sanctified it in honor of our Creation and He himself rested on it.
He blessed and sanctified it on the Seventh Day and it remains so to this day.

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Thanks Him, But the same day (7th day) God said that No one will into His rest..Hebrews 4
So the Sabbath day for God's people is called "today" Not the "7th" (7th day is for the Lord)

Do you know why the 7th day was blessed and sanctified right?

DamianWarS said:

no one keeps the sabbath (even the ones who say they do). If we actually read the sabbath law it is not just about ourselves it is about our household (slaves/servants and animals) and all under our care. it is also about those residing in our communities and if one of those were not to keep the sabbath then no one keeps the sabbath.

Sabbath law summed up is don't work and don't cause others to work. The first part is easy, the last part not so much as in our modern society as we are dependant upon systems that are driven by a workforce and when we participate in them unnecessarily on the sabbath we break the letter of the law. Things like electricity, mail, internet, cell phones, tv, driving, restaurants, banks, etc... The moment we participate in these things unnecessarily we are participating in a workforce driving those systems that do not value the sabbath (now in case you've lost focus, I'm speaking of unnecessary participation, I'm not talking about shutting down hospitals or turning off heat in the middle winter, again keyword "unnecessary")

So we cannot keep the sabbath all we can keep is a theme of the Sabbath which is not good enough. However this is sort of the point, the law is unkeepable which is why Christ came to free us from the law but the law also points to this freedom. If we look at the sabbath law again it says that even slaves/servants and animals must rest. This is an important mark of the sabbath as slaves/servants and animals have no rights are unable to rest unless they are given rest. That last part is important because in a system of grace we cannot obtain grace ourselves and it must be given to us. This is the sabbath of God; sabbath is salvation. You may keep a day based on your personal convictions or in keeping with traditions but that day itself cannot give you God's rest and this is the rest we should be seeking, the rest that only God can give and we have no authority or means to take ourselves.

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To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1). If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the Old Covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations, yet certain people continue to remain under the delusion that they will receive eternal life based on the merits of their best efforts to obey the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment) — “salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works.” (Galatians 1:6-9)

BobRyan said:

BobRyan said: ↑
No wonder it is the gentiles in Acts 13 - asking for more Gospel preaching "the next Sabbath"

1. They did not ask for "more gospel preaching TOMORROW on week-day-1" they asked for more Gospel preaching "next Sabbath"
2. Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" Gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews.
3. Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8
4. Lev 23:3 - the weekly Sabbath is a "day of holy convocation" they were in "holy convocation" ... the Sabbath commandment calls for rest and fellowship with God - as does Lev 23:3.



Gentiles hearing the Gospel "every Sabbath" and Gentiles asking for more Gospel preaching "next Sabbath" instead of "tomorrow on week-day-1" - are details we should just ignore while supposing that these gentiles that just heard and accepted Gospel teaching are still ignoring the Word of God??

- they "just so happen" to be acting in a manner showing compliance with it??

How is that even remotely exegesis of the text??

Gentiles are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Isaiah 5:6-8 God's house of prayer for "ALL nations" not "just the Jews". Even the majority of Bible scholars in non-SDA non-Sabbath keeping denominations admit to these easy Bible details.

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Jews gather on the 7th day Sabbath to worship in their Synagogues Not any other day so does Paul who is a Jew...the Gentiles who heard Paul preaching in the Synagogue ask Paul to come back the next Sabbath to preach at the same Synagogue in which open on the 7th day...

if the Gentiles invite Paul to preach at their house on any other day Paul will not hesitate to do it...

If the 7th day Sabbath gathering is that important then it should enforce or reminded by the apostles to the Gentiles just how it was enforced and kept by Jews from the time of Moses...the old testament has many mentions of the 7th day Sabbath to keep but comes to NT there is None specific Command for Gentiles to do the same...

pasifika said:

Jews gather on the 7th day Sabbath to worship in their Synagogues

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No doubt. But "after the Jews leave" it was gentiles asking for more Gospel preaching "the next Sabbath"

Acts 13:
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.


Not "gentiles asked for more gospel preaching tomorrow - week-day-1, when supposedly Paul was meeting with people who had accepted gospel preaching"

If the 7th day Sabbath gathering is that important then it should enforce or reminded by the apostles to the Gentiles just how it was enforced and kept by Jews from the time of Moses...the old testament has many mentions of the 7th day Sabbath to keep but comes to NT there is None specific Command for Gentiles to do the same...

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The NT writers do not mention "do not take God's name in vain" even ONCE.

The NT writers INTRODUCE Christ as the Messiah and mention that - MANY times.

The NT writers do NOT "introduce week day 1 - as the new day of weekly worship" not even ONE such "every week-day-1 meet for gospel preaching". Yet we have "every Sabbath" - Gospel preaching in Acts 18:4

Danthemailman said:

To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

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Adam and Eve kept it, no animal sacrifices.

Even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits that the civil laws of the OT theocracy are no longer in effect without that theocracy

Heb 10:4-12 is very clear that animal sacrifices end at the cross.