Abortion

[Messenger]

 

 

Originally posted by Satoshi


Maybe you should go back and read my post again.  It was not intended to equivocate humans and other animals, but to reveal that Messenger's post was nothing more than two assertions and an admission that Messenger was unwilling to consider other viewpoints.  The fact that these assertions are just as valid with eating meat as with abortion demonstrates why unsupported assertions are worthless in a debate.

Not worthless...just fact. I state a fact and there is no debating it. I could not see Jesus telling someone to go get an abortion. Babies were killed in the Bible but it wasn't what God or Jesus said to do. The "bad" guys killed the Babies not the "good" guys. Case closed...Abortion is wrong Plain and Simple. I do not consider what man trys to say is right....I concider what the Bible and Holy Spirit show me is right. Want to make a case state scripture...Stating not to eat meat is against scripture just as abortion is.

We are only to follow the laws that do not go against God and taking a life is against God!

There is no need for debate when God has spoken...Read the commandment

Love and God Bless,

Messenger

 

[Stormy]

If it's not a life before two months what, pray tell, is it?

I also am waiting for this answer.

 

[Mallory Knox]

Originally posted by Messenger
 Not worthless...just fact. I state a fact and there is no debating it.

Your OPINION is not a FACT that is undebatable. Get over yourself.

Babies were killed in the Bible but it wasn't what God or Jesus said to do. The "bad" guys killed the Babies not the "good" guys. Case closed...Abortion is wrong Plain and Simple. I do not consider what man trys to say is right....I concider what the Bible and Holy Spirit show me is right. Want to make a case state scripture...Stating not to eat meat is against scripture just as abortion is.

What about the time God murdered all the firstborn? Or do you not like to talk about that?

 

[Mallory Knox]

Originally posted by SimpleChristian
mallory...funny how you have never replied to the fact that, from what you have said, life to you is determined by age and age only...or by an ability to survive. So why can't we apply those concepts across the board. Please show me any newborn who can survive on it's own, seperate from it's mother or any other replacement.

If it's not a life before two months what, pray tell, is it?

IT IS A LIFE, of course, obviously, but to me it is not a human life until it can survive OUTSIDE THE BODY OF THE MOTHER. Of course it still needs to be taken care of, but it is developped enough to exist outside the mother. Do you GET IT yet? I'm not asking you to agree with me. Just to understand what I'm saying. Everybody else does.

 

[Mallory Knox]

Originally posted by Stormy
Tell me then Mallory, why can the killing of a fetus, be considered murder, if it is done without the consent of the mother?
After all to use your logic it was not a person.
Should I answer??
We are playing god and deciding what life is worthy of our love. Which life should be protected and which should be killed.
We make very poor gods.

It's not my fault that a killing of a fetus can be considered murder. I don't necessarly agree with that. I don't have to answer to that. We're not talking laws here.

 

[Stormy]

"While the capacity for an experience of pain comparable to that in a newborn baby is certainly present by 24 weeks after conception, there are conflicting views about the sensations experienced in the earlier stages of development. The current scientific understanding is that 6 weeks after conception the elements of the nervous system start to function. Most scientists currently agree that this marks the earliest possible point at which sensation might occur."

You place no significance on a life under 2 months of gestation.

Did you know that this little human who is nothing to you... Is not only murdered... But also feels the pain of his death.

When you think of the love a child shows his parent ... you must wonder... how the birth, of so great a LOVE... could be unwanted?

 

[Messenger]

Originally posted by Mallory Knox


Your OPINION is not a FACT that is undebatable. Get over yourself.



What about the time God murdered all the firstborn? Or do you not like to talk about that?

Let's talk ....Got your bible ready?

 

[Satoshi]

Originally posted by Messenger
Not worthless...just fact.

Mindless repetition of your assertion does not a make it a fact.

I state a fact and there is no debating it. I could not see Jesus telling someone to go get an abortion. Babies were killed in the Bible but it wasn't what God or Jesus said to do. The "bad" guys killed the Babies not the "good" guys.  Case closed...Abortion is wrong Plain and Simple.

You keep saying that abortion is wrong but the best defense for this opinion is your inaccurate interpretation of the Christian Bible.  Incredibly, you don't even back up this interpretation with anything from the Bible!

I do not consider what man trys to say is right....I concider what the Bible and Holy Spirit show me is right.

So you don't care about the facts, but only about your interpretation of the Bible?  Given that you don't care to examine your interpretation, it doesn't seem like it's even possible to debate with you.  Why are you even bothering to post if you're not going to back up your assertions or even consider changing your mind?

Want to make a case state scripture...Stating not to eat meat is against scripture just as abortion is.

This forum isn't Bible Study and Medical Ethics, it's Spirituality, Religion, & Ethics.  If you want to use scripture to support your opinion, feel free to do so.  Just don't feel like you can arbitrarily limit others.

We are only to follow the laws that do not go against God and taking a life is against God!

Then why did you say that scripture is against not eating meat?  Could you please stay to one position for at least a single post?

There is no need for debate when God has spoken...Read the commandment

God's not speaking on this forum.  You are.  If you want to support your opinion, support it.  Don't try to make up stuff and declare it God's word.

 

[Mallory Knox]

Originally posted by Stormy
You place no significance on a life under 2 months of gestation.
Did you know that this little human who is nothing to you... Is not only murdered... But also feels the pain of his death.
When you think of the love a child shows his parent ... you must wonder... how the birth, of so great a LOVE... could be unwanted?

First of all, I used 2 months as an example. Saying a specific age makes no sense.

Second of all, abortion is a terrible thing. It's a tragedy. But before a certain point it is not murder and sometimes it's justifiable, that's all I'm saying, which you would see if you could peek around the ABORTIONISMURDERABORTIONISMURDERABORTIONISMURDER mantra screaming in your head and actually read my posts, and try to see my point of view. I totally see your point of view. I understand exactly what you're saying. I read your posts and put myself in your shoes. Try it sometime, it makes arguments a whole lot more productive.

 

[Mallory Knox]

Originally posted by Messenger
Let's talk ....Got your bible ready?

About God killing all the firstborn? Okay. Shoot.

 

[Stormy]

But before a certain point it is not murder and sometimes it's justifiable, that's all I'm saying

I agree that this is what you are saying. I however do not agree with what you are saying.

I totally see your point of view. I understand exactly what you're saying. I read your posts and put myself in your shoes. Try it sometime, it makes arguments a whole lot more productive.

I agree this is a very good point.

But maybe if you would once again place yourself in my shoes ... you will understand my next comment.

I can never put on the shoes of an atheist.

But that does not mean that I can not imagine how you reason.

 

[Mallory Knox]

Originally posted by Stormy
But maybe if you would once again place yourself in my shoes ... you will understand my next comment.
I can never put on the shoes of an atheist.
But that does not mean that I can not imagine how you reason.

Imagining how I reason is exactly "putting on my shoes".

 

[SimpleChristian]

Ok Mallory....you said that before 2 months it is a life...your words....but it is not a human life. Ok...please educate me on WHAT kind of life it is before two months?

 

[Morat]

Stormy and Simple:

  Your counter-argument only has validity (and little at that) if you equate consent to sex with consent to pregnancy. I realize that you consider them the same, but not everyone does.

   A person may consent to sex, but not to getting pregnant. Pretending they're the same is claiming that a person who consents to being placed under general anesthetic is also consenting to having their bone marrow removed. Two seperate acts, even if they can be linked. I have been placed on general anesthetic many times, and never have donated bone marrow.

   Secondly, your are still left with allowing abortions in case of rape or when the pregnancy endangers the mother.

 

[Mallory Knox]

Originally posted by SimpleChristian
Ok Mallory....you said that before 2 months it is a life...your words....but it is not a human life. Ok...please educate me on WHAT kind of life it is before two months?

I used "two months" as an example. It is human life if it can survive outside its mother. Before that, it is life, but not human life. It has the potential to become human life.

WHAT kind of life? It is the kind of life that a fetus is before it can survive outside the mother. What do you mean, what kind of life?

 

[SimpleChristian]

mallory...so are you saying that humanity is defined by some sort of abstract idea of survival?? Welcome yourself to the same sort of mindset that many in the South had regarding black people! Enjoy your stay!

Morat....so are you telling me that there are people out there who are having sex that have NO IDEA that sex can lead to pregnancy? For those people, yes I can see your point, my analogy has no weight. However, for all of those others who have sex whose IQ is above, say 50, then the analogy does hold. If a person has sex, that person knows that it can result in pregnancy. That is where the 'choice' comes in.

But as to your other point...hey, politically I would be absolutely FINE with abortions being legal only in cases of rape, incest and danger to the mother...however, just so you know of ALL the abortions performed, less then 2% of them is for ALL of those reasons COMBINED!! To put that into perspective (again)...out of the over 43 MILLION that have been done since 1973, less then 900,000 have been for those reasons. To put that into another perspective, then have been 4 times more babies killed for 'convenience' then ALL of the Jews killed during the Holocaust. But...of course, the Jews did not fit the accepted term of 'human' at the time...

Maybe it's me just me....but I guess I disagree you others in that I don't think one person's life is void just because it is 'inconvenient' to someone else...which is all abortion is, after you muddle through all of the justifications that pro-baby-death people make...it's all about what is convenient to one person at the expense of another.

 

[SimpleChristian]

Leads to another interesting question....if an abortion is such a good thing or a 'safe alternative'...then why is it the ONLY MEDICAL PROCEDURE in the ENTIRE COUNTRY AND MEDICAL COMMUNITY where informed consent is not federally mandated. In fact, the Supremes found a few years ago that informed consent actually infringes upon a woman's right to choose....therefore it is not legally mandated.

Hmmm...kind of makes you wonder....

 

[Morat]

Morat....so are you telling me that there are people out there who are having sex that have NO IDEA that sex can lead to pregnancy? For those people, yes I can see your point, my analogy has no weight. However, for all of those others who have sex whose IQ is above, say 50, then the analogy does hold. If a person has sex, that person knows that it can result in pregnancy. That is where the 'choice' comes in.

   Nope. I'm stating, quite simply, that those people chose to have sex, not get pregnant. There's something of a difference, right?

   After all, this weekend I might choose to get a tan. However, despite my precautions, I might end up getting skin cancer.

   I suppose I should have known better, and should be denied medical treatment.

  After all, I must have "chosen" to get skin cancer.

Maybe it's me just me....but I guess I disagree you others in that I don't think one person's life is void just because it is 'inconvenient' to someone else...which is all abortion is, after you muddle through all of the justifications that pro-baby-death people make...it's all about what is convenient to one person at the expense of another.

  I don't think a fetus is a "person". Nor do, in any case, think one person has the right to live by using another person's body against their will.

  

 

[Stormy]

I don't think a fetus is a "person

You do realize at one time you were a fetus.

Aren't you glad that your mom did not analyze her pregnancy into nothing more than an evil cancer and receive treatment to rid her self of you.

Your logic eludes me.

 

[SimpleChristian]

morat...a more apt analogy would be...

this weekend you might decide to get a sun tan....knowing FULL WELL that TOO MUCH EXPOSURE could give you a sunburn. Also you are full aware that there are protective measures you could take (i.e. sunblock) that would DECREASE YOUR CHANCES of getting a sunburn...but it was STILL A POSSIBILITY no matter how careful you were. So, knowing all of this, you STILL DECIDED and CHOSE to lay out and take the chance of getting a sunburn.

So....if you come in at the end of the day....after just wanting to get right to the laying out...forgetting your sunblock...telling yourself "hey, I won't burn"...when you come in at the end of the day red as a beet, hurting and burning all over......don't whine that you got a burn...you made the choice and peeling off your skin with a knife won't make it any better.

Now...it would be a little different if over the weekend you were captured by indians who tied you to a stake naked in the middle of the dessert and refused to give you any sunblock......in that case you were sunburnt by conditions beyond your control.......