Abortion - top moral issue of our time?

BobRyan

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Let's all agree on a few basic moral facts.

Scenario: A mother is found guilty of killing her six month old baby:

Sample reasons given (pick any one):
1. I already had too many babies/children and finally determined I could not afford this last one.
2. The baby was a result of incest and after 6 months I determined it was best if the baby did not exist
3. The baby was a result of sexual violence against me - I no longer wanted a reminder of that
4. I have a lot of things on my plate these days - it was one too many distractions.
5. The baby was somewhat high maintenance due to some physical deformity
6. I just found that baby to be a bit inconvenient.
7. I had an allergy to the baby's hair for some odd reason.

So then IF we lived in a world where a lot of 6 month olds were being terminated for those reasons - we would all probably object saying that it was/is a big moral atrocity and needs to stop. We might all even agree that it is "the top moral issue of our times" regardless of how many legal or illegal aliens come over the borders.

=====================

So then given that level of moral clarity about the wrongness of killing humans...

What about the cases of
1. birth day abortions?
2. abortions at 6 months of pregnancy?
3. Abortions at any point after viability?
4. Abortion at any point when the baby has a heart and brain.

Do you have the view that if someone is holding their breath, they are no longer human? Do you believe a baby is not human if it holds its breath or is on a perfusion machine in surgery because in those cases -- it is not using its airway passage to breathe?

===================

Many states even to this day admit the unborn child is a human with the right to live when they create their laws against the murder of the unborn child --

So then a "bad actor" that causes the death of the unborn child as part of his/her crime against a pregnant mother - has certain criminal charges laid against him.

State Homicide Laws That Recognize Unborn Victims | National Right to Life


www.nrlc.org
www.nrlc.org

State Homicide Laws That Recognize Unborn Victims


Alabama: Legislation taking effect July 1, 2006 (HB 19) amended Section 13A-6-1 of the Code of Alabama to include “an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability” as a “person” and “human being” for purposes of the state laws dealing with murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault.


Alaska: Alaska Statutes 11.41 (as amended by Senate Bill 20, enacted June 16, 2006) establishes the crimes of “murder of an unborn child,” “manslaughter of an unborn child,” “criminally negligent homicide of an unborn child,” and “assault of an unborn child.” Alaska Statutes 11.81.900(b) defines “unborn child” as “a member of species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.”

Arizona: The “unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development” is fully covered by the state’s murder and manslaughter statutes. For purposes of establishing the level of punishment, a victim who is “an unborn child shall be treated like a minor who is under twelve years of age.” Senate Bill 1052, signed into law on April 25, 2005, amending the following sections of the Arizona Revised Statutes: 13-604, 13-604.01, 13-703, 13-1102, 13-1103, 13-1104, 13-1105, 13-4062, 31-412, 41-1604.11 and 41-1604.13.
(just listing a few examples above)..

This is not the massively confusing fact of life that some have suggested.


====================

from: State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women

"Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 29 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation/development," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*)."
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Abortion is not one single thing. It has many forms, many circumstances, many stories and reasons behind it. But it is always one thing, if it is not anything else, it is ending the life of someone.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Let's all agree on a few basic moral facts.

Scenario: A mother is found guilty of killing her six month old baby:

Sample reasons given (pick any one):
1. I already had too many babies/children and finally determined I could not afford this last one.
2. The baby was a result of incest and after 6 months I determined it was best if the baby did not exist
3. The baby was a result of sexual violence against me - I no longer wanted a reminder of that
4. I have a lot of things on my plate these days - it was one too many distractions.
5. The baby was somewhat high maintenance due to some physical deformity
6. I just found that baby to be a bit inconvenient.
7. I had an allergy to the baby's hair for some odd reason.

So then IF we lived in a world where a lot of 6 month olds were being terminated for those reasons - we would all probably object saying that it was/is a big moral atrocity and needs to stop. We might all even agree that it is "the top moral issue of our times" regardless of how many legal or illegal aliens come over the borders.

=====================

So then given that level of moral clarity about the wrongness of killing humans...

What about the cases of
1. birth day abortions?
2. abortions at 6 months of pregnancy?
3. Abortions at any point after viability?
4. Abortion at any point when the baby has a heart and brain.

Do you have the view that if someone is holding their breath, they are no longer human? Do you believe a baby is not human if it holds its breath or is on a perfusion machine in surgery because in those cases -- it is not using its airway passage to breathe?
The law already recognizes that any stage of an embryo is human. However, when it comes to the mother the same law gives her freedom of choice.
 
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FenderTL5

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It would seem that for some, it is the only moral issue of our time.
 
G
Gregory Thompson
For me, hypocrisy is a more poignant issue. Scripture agrees.

In context of this topic, war is adjacent, since it involves human sacrifice.

However, quite often people who are anti-abortion, vote for pro-war politicians ... so the overall result is not pleasing to God.
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BobRyan

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It would seem that for some, it is the only moral issue of our time.
If one opposed slavery in the U.S. in the 1800's were they "not allowed" to oppose any other moral issue ? That seems a bit extreme.

But an interesting way to try and paint it.

I know of no one who allows all moral issues to "get a pass" and only pays attention to one.
 
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BobRyan

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Abortion is not one single thing. It has many forms, many circumstances, many stories and reasons behind it. But it is always one thing, if it is not anything else, it is ending the life of someone.
But a lot of rationalizing as to why it should be done -- exists all the same.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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But a lot of rationalizing as to why it should be done -- exists all the same.
Yes, many stories, some of hardship, some of violence, some of rape, and some terrible medical risks. All of the stories have unique elements to them nevertheless one thread unites them all; abortion ends the life of someone.

So, the question one must face in each case is this:
Is taking this life justified in this case?​
Is it justified to kill because of poverty?​
Is it justified to kill because of rape?​
Is it justified to kill to save a different life?​
Is it justified to kill because of presumed mercy to the deformed or diseased state of the infant's life?​
Many circumstances arise and the answer is not always easy to give.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, many stories, some of hardship, some of violence, some of rape, and some terrible medical risks. All of the stories have unique elements to them nevertheless one thread unites them all; abortion ends the life of someone.

So, the question one must face in each case is this:
Is taking this life justified in this case?​
Is it justified to kill because of poverty?​
Is it justified to kill because of rape?​
Is it justified to kill to save a different life?​
Is it justified to kill because of presumed mercy to the deformed or diseased state of the infant's life?​
Many circumstances arise and the answer is not always easy to give.

True - but this is why in the OP I set all those "circumstances" in the context of killing a 6 month old baby. Notice how no one even attempts to rationalize "well given this circumstance it would surely right to kill that six month old baby". How is it that all of those very emotional and tragic circumstances do not rate at all when contrasted with killing the actual six month old baby? Suddenly they all pale by comparison to the life of the six month old.

"Science" confirms - babies in the womb in the case of pregnant mothers -



Here is the Mayo Clinic talking about the "baby" during pregancy

"People with gestational diabetes must maintain tight control of blood sugar through diet and physical activity. Sometimes medication is needed too. Left untreated, gestational diabetes can cause a baby to grow larger than average. Having a larger baby increases the risk of injuries during delivery."

That was from: Pregnancy after 35: What you need to know

==============

That's right folks - we "follow the science" and even the legal code in the majority of states admit to the murder of infants/babies in the womb with their criminal code against infanticide.
 
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BobRyan

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Many states even to this day admit the unborn child is a human with the right to live when they create their laws against the murder of the unborn child --

So then a "bad actor" that causes the death of the unborn child as part of his/her crime against a pregnant mother - has certain criminal charges laid against him.

State Homicide Laws That Recognize Unborn Victims | National Right to Life


www.nrlc.org
www.nrlc.org

State Homicide Laws That Recognize Unborn Victims


Alabama: Legislation taking effect July 1, 2006 (HB 19) amended Section 13A-6-1 of the Code of Alabama to include “an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability” as a “person” and “human being” for purposes of the state laws dealing with murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault.


Alaska: Alaska Statutes 11.41 (as amended by Senate Bill 20, enacted June 16, 2006) establishes the crimes of “murder of an unborn child,” “manslaughter of an unborn child,” “criminally negligent homicide of an unborn child,” and “assault of an unborn child.” Alaska Statutes 11.81.900(b) defines “unborn child” as “a member of species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.”

Arizona: The “unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development” is fully covered by the state’s murder and manslaughter statutes. For purposes of establishing the level of punishment, a victim who is “an unborn child shall be treated like a minor who is under twelve years of age.” Senate Bill 1052, signed into law on April 25, 2005, amending the following sections of the Arizona Revised Statutes: 13-604, 13-604.01, 13-703, 13-1102, 13-1103, 13-1104, 13-1105, 13-4062, 31-412, 41-1604.11 and 41-1604.13.
(just listing a few examples above)..

This is not the massively confusing fact of life that some have suggested.


====================

from: State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women

"Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 29 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation/development," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*)."

The confusion seems to be that you seem to think you have a right to make their choice for them.

Civil laws "make choices" for bad actors that want to kill, 2 year olds, 1 year olds, six month olds, six-minute olds just after they are born and the laws above also provide criminal codes that address bad actors trying to kill babies in the womb.

The mother that "wants the baby" is glad for those criminal codes that force the bad-actor in that example - to be charged with murder when they do violence to her baby.

The argument that the baby is 'changed' or that act of murder is more "correct" depending on the "Attitude of the mother about the baby" denies the very existence of the Baby that is the subject of that legal code. As if personhood of the baby could be defined to be nothing more than "mental disposition of another person towards the baby". No wonder the Bible condemns killing the unborn in Ex 21:22-23
 
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parousia70

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Scenario:
I need a Bone Marrow transplant to live.
You are a match.

I forcibly attempt to take your bone Marrow against your will.

Should you have the Legal/Moral right to Kill me if you had to, in order to prevent me from taking your Bone Marrow against your will?

Or, does my "right to life" supercede your mere "preference" not to be temporarily inconvenienced by having your marrow extracted against your will, and you therefore have no legal or moral grounds to say "no"?

Does the Superceding Right to Life of one, over the mere preference of another to not be temporarily inconvenienced by the use of their body so the one may live, end at Birth?

Are there any other human rights that end at birth? or is this the only one?
 
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Diamond7

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trying to kill babies in the womb.
I killed my baby before she made it to the womb because I told her mother to go to the doctor to take birth control and she was given an IUD that caused a miscarriage. Good my baby forgives me, although I am sure she does not understand why things went the way they did and she never had the opportunity to live her life here on Earth. At least we will all be together in Heaven when the time comes. God is able to reunite us.
 
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Diamond7

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Should you have the Legal/Moral right to Kill me if you had to, in order to prevent me from taking your Bone Marrow against your will?
In the real world, you can go to China and buy the Bone Marrow from a prisoner who has the legal status of an organ donor. If you can afford to pay the money. Or people in third world nations sell their organs for a price.
screenshot-newint.org-2022.12.10-23_57_34.png
 
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Diamond7

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inconvenienced by the use of their body
No one is using their body. They made a choice when they had sex. Even if they were ignorant that having sex produces babies. Even if they did not know it was a sin to have sex outside of marriage. The wages of sin is death. If they do not want the inconvenience then celibacy is the answer to that. I can not understand how anyone would consider their own child, their own flesh and blood to be an inconvenience.
 
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parousia70

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No one is using their body. They made a choice when they had sex. Even if they were ignorant that having sex produces babies. Even if they did not know it was a sin to have sex outside of marriage. The wages of sin is death. If they do not want the inconvenience then celibacy is the answer to that. I can not understand how anyone would consider their own child, their own flesh and blood to be an inconvenience.
So rape isn't really a thing? Everyone who has sex does so by choice, always?
 
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parousia70

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In the real world, you can go to China and buy the Bone Marrow from a prisoner who has the legal status of an organ donor. If you can afford to pay the money. Or people in third world nations sell their organs for a price.
View attachment 324744
Right, but the question is, should people have the RIGHT to decline to donate their organs/blood/marrow? Or, should it be required by law?
 
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Diamond7

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Right, but the question is, should people have the RIGHT to decline to donate their organs/blood/marrow? Or, should it be required by law?
The problem with choice is you are held responsible for the choice that you make.
 
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Diamond7

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So rape isn't really a thing? Everyone who has sex does so by choice, always?
Are you talking about date rape or stranger abduction and kidnapping? Which is a form of sex slavery. In the case of sex slavery, the pimp can go to jail for a long time. That is rare. Perhaps they are a slave to drugs or the money to buy drugs.

If we look at Deuteronomy 22:25-27 the women is required to scream and cry out for help. If she did not scream and cry out for help, then she is required to marry him.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
 
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