Abortion: the core issue and criterion of Christian politics.

[Constantine the Sinner]

Abortion is the core issue of Christian politics and the mainstay of the Kulturkampf. Abortion is murder, full stop. The soul is not endowed only with birth, and even from a secular perspective, if a fetus is a human being, the fetus is entitled to human rights, and if we don't think of all human beings should be persons, then we need to change it to "person rights". And this also isn't like donating an organ, it's a matter of parental obligation, and if you beget a child, you are duty-bound to that little one until she grows up, or someone else accepts the duty in your stead. This duty doesn't cease because the child is physically attached to you.

This is the major political issue of Christianity today, because it's mass murder of millions right in our own fatherlands. If a Christian says something about abortion like, "It's not really my business," then as far as I'm concerned, their faith is dead, worthless ash.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

Abortion is murder, full stop.

Cite? Look it up. I'm pretty sure that you'll find that abortion is not murder.

The soul is not endowed only with birth

OK. So?

even from a secular perspective, if a fetus is a human being

Depends on how you define human being. The only thing that distinguishes us from the lower animals is our brain. That's what makes us human beings, and it doesn't develop in a fetus until the 20-somethingth week.

the fetus is entitled to human rights

Says who? I certainly don't believe that, at least, not for the first trimester and a half.

, and if we don't think of all human beings should be persons, then we need to change it to "person rights".

Semantics.

Personhood, however, is a strongly contested issue within all branches of science and philosophy.

And this also isn't like donating an organ, it's a matter of parental obligation, and if you beget a child, you are duty-bound to that little one until she grows up, or someone else accepts the duty in your stead. This duty doesn't cease because the child is physically attached to you.

Once it's a child and not a clump of cells, I would agree.

This is the major political issue of Christianity today, because it's mass murder of millions right in our own fatherlands.

Not sure that I'm comfortable discussing fatherlands and Kulturkampf. Not since Bismarck, ya know?

If a Christian says something about abortion like, "It's not really my business," then as far as I'm concerned, their faith is dead, worthless ash.

How does what you think about my faith concern me?

 

[Quijote]

Abortion is the core issue of Christian politics and the mainstay of the Kulturkampf. Abortion is murder, full stop. The soul is not endowed only with birth, and even from a secular perspective, if a fetus is a human being, the fetus is entitled to human rights, and if we don't think of all human beings should be persons, then we need to change it to "person rights". And this also isn't like donating an organ, it's a matter of parental obligation, and if you beget a child, you are duty-bound to that little one until she grows up, or someone else accepts the duty in your stead. This duty doesn't cease because the child is physically attached to you.

This is the major political issue of Christianity today, because it's mass murder of millions right in our own fatherlands. If a Christian says something about abortion like, "It's not really my business," then as far as I'm concerned, their faith is dead, worthless ash.

Problem is, you are speaking of objective morality to a world/nation that has adopted subjective morality.


Cheers.

 

[JustOneWay]

That settles it....I am never having an abortion.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Cite? Look it up. I'm pretty sure that you'll find that abortion is not murder.




OK. So?




Depends on how you define human being. The only thing that distinguishes us from the lower animals is our brain. That's what makes us human beings, and it doesn't develop in a fetus until the 20-somethingth week.




Says who? I certainly don't believe that, at least, not for the first trimester and a half.




Semantics.

Personhood, however, is a strongly contested issue within all branches of science and philosophy.




Once it's a child and not a clump of cells, I would agree.




Not sure that I'm comfortable discussing fatherlands and Kulturkampf. Not since Bismarck, ya know?




How does what you think about my faith concern me?

So are you defining "human being", philosophically, or scientifically?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Abortion is the core issue of Christian politics and the mainstay of the Kulturkampf. Abortion is murder, full stop. The soul is not endowed only with birth, and even from a secular perspective, if a fetus is a human being, the fetus is entitled to human rights, and if we don't think of all human beings should be persons, then we need to change it to "person rights". And this also isn't like donating an organ, it's a matter of parental obligation, and if you beget a child, you are duty-bound to that little one until she grows up, or someone else accepts the duty in your stead. This duty doesn't cease because the child is physically attached to you.

This is the major political issue of Christianity today, because it's mass murder of millions right in our own fatherlands. If a Christian says something about abortion like, "It's not really my business," then as far as I'm concerned, their faith is dead, worthless ash.

I think it is important for the Christian to realize they live, if they live in America, in a secular nation that is governed depending on who you talk to as a Constitutional Democratic Republic.
The Bible tells us we are to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.
Caesars domain is the secular legal landscape of civil and criminal jurisprudence. The ecclesiastical domain and area of law under God in Christ is that which pertains to the Christian.

In short, for abortion to be murder it would have to, I believe, meet the legal criteria of murder as defined in statute. It obviously does not or the supreme court of the United States of America would be in error in its decision long ago relative to the case of Roe vs. Wade. And as such I imagine it would have been overturned by Congress.

Whereas for the Christian it is a matter of God's law of righteousness. Abortion is indeed murder of the innocent unborn. And as such we are obliged to obey the law of God and not have an abortion.

This way we render unto God that which belongs to God. And let be rendered under Caesar that which is the domain of Caesar.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I think it is important for the Christian to realize they live, if they live in America, in a secular nation that is governed depending on who you talk to as a Constitutional Democratic Republic.
The Bible tells us we are to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.
Caesars domain is the secular legal landscape of civil and criminal jurisprudence. The ecclesiastical domain and area of law under God in Christ is that which pertains to the Christian.

In short, for abortion to be murder it would have to, I believe, meet the legal criteria of murder as defined in statute. It obviously does not or the supreme court of the United States of America would be in error in its decision long ago relative to the case of Roe vs. Wade. And as such I imagine it would have been overturned by Congress.

Whereas for the Christian it is a matter of God's law of righteousness. Abortion is indeed murder of the innocent unborn. And as such we are obliged to obey the law of God and not have an abortion.

This way we render unto God that which belongs to God. And let be rendered under Caesar that which is the domain of Caesar.

So if a state were conducting genocide, you feel that it's not a Christian's place to say that's wrong and must be stopped since the state says it's not murder?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

So if a state were conducting genocide, you feel that it's not a Christian's place to say that's wrong and must be stopped since the state says it's not murder?

Red Herring.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Red Herring.

How? Unless you are saying abortion isn't as bad.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

How? Unless you are saying abortion isn't as bad.

How is it a red herring? Genocide is not legal in America. Abortion is not murder by the secular laws of America. Ipso Facto, you are delivering falsehoods when you incorporate Genocide into this discussion.

If you believe abortion is murder do not have an abortion. The Saint of Christ and His church is obligated to obey God before they obey man. Man's law, the secular laws of the United States of America, make the elective procedure of Abortion legal. SCOTUS cannot legalize murder. Abortion is not murder by secular law. By personal opinion is irrelevant to secular laws status in defining murder.

If you are against murder, don't get an abortion. If you believe abortion is murder, don't get an abortion. However, being we are told we are to be in the world, meaning we live on planet earth as human beings, we are also told not to be of the world. In other words, not to follow the tide that rises and falls in the secular community in matters of elective behaviors.
But we are to obey the laws. And we are to respect the authorities that are in place over us. Unless or until they demonstrate they are not of God. And then civil disobedience is at option.
Being the civil laws make abortion an elective, not compulsory, and being that the laws cannot legalize murder as an elective or it would set a precedent that would enable all murders to be construed as such and that would evoke chaos of the scope unimaginable, abortion is therefore not something the Christian would do. Nor would they support it if someone asked advice about it. But would instead counsel an alternative action. Like adoption or keeping the child.

You're attempting to conflate abortion with genocide. Abortion is legal therefore genocide is legal. That is a red herring.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

How is it a red herring? Genocide is not legal in America. Abortion is not murder by the secular laws of America. Ipso Facto, you are delivering falsehoods when you incorporate Genocide into this discussion.

If you believe abortion is murder do not have an abortion. The Saint of Christ and His church is obligated to obey God before they obey man. Man's law, the secular laws of the United States of America, make the elective procedure of Abortion legal. SCOTUS cannot legalize murder. Abortion is not murder by secular law. By personal opinion is irrelevant to secular laws status in defining murder.

If you are against murder, don't get an abortion. If you believe abortion is murder, don't get an abortion. However, being we are told we are to be in the world, meaning we live on planet earth as human beings, we are also told not to be of the world. In other words, not to follow the tide that rises and falls in the secular community in matters of elective behaviors.
But we are to obey the laws. And we are to respect the authorities that are in place over us. Unless or until they demonstrate they are not of God. And then civil disobedience is at option.
Being the civil laws make abortion an elective, not compulsory, and being that the laws cannot legalize murder as an elective or it would set a precedent that would enable all murders to be construed as such and that would evoke chaos of the scope unimaginable, abortion is therefore not something the Christian would do. Nor would they support it if someone asked advice about it. But would instead counsel an alternative action. Like adoption or keeping the child.

You're attempting to conflate abortion with genocide. Abortion is legal therefore genocide is legal. That is a red herring.

But if genocide were not considered murder in America (it obviously wasn't in the past), then you'd say it wouldn't be our business to politically oppose it, right?

 

[FireDragon76]

Are you a convert to Orthodoxy? Most cradle Orthodox are a little more pragmatic about the reality of abortion. In fact until recently Orthodox churches in the US were reluctant to get involved in this debate, and one Metropolitan that did was brought down partly because he insisted on dragging the OCA into the culture wars.

Is it a sin? I guess so- the Didache certainly seems to suggest so. But you know, we are all sinners, breaking one law is as good as breaking them all. Kulturkampf may not be the most ethical way to approach this issue.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

But if genocide were not considered murder in America (it obviously wasn't in the past), then you'd say it wouldn't be our business to politically oppose it, right?

Genocide was not practiced in America ever.

You are still throwing red herrings and non-sequitur into your thread.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Genocide was not practiced in America ever.

You are still throwing red herrings and non-sequitur into your thread.

Genocide was certainly practiced against Native Americans, both by settlers and the military. It was legal. So you do you say it would have been wrong to oppose?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Are you a convert to Orthodoxy? Most cradle Orthodox are a little more pragmatic about the reality of abortion. In fact until recently Orthodox churches in the US were reluctant to get involved in this debate, and one Metropolitan that did was brought down partly because he insisted on dragging the OCA into the culture wars.

Is it a sin? I guess so- the Didache certainly seems to suggest so. But you know, we are all sinners, breaking one law is as good as breaking them all. Kulturkampf may not be the most ethical way to approach this issue.

Do you believe it is murder, yes, or no?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Genocide was certainly practiced against Native Americans, both by settlers and the military. It was legal. So you do you say it would have been wrong to oppose?

No, it wasn't genocide. Again, red herring, non-sequitur.
Are you able to keep to the topic you started here? Abortion?

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

No, it wasn't genocide. Again, red herring, non-sequitur.
Are you able to keep to the topic you started here? Abortion?

Are you able to actually sustain your defense of abortion, that it's legal and therefore not to be contested? Because if that logic (legality placing something beyond contest) can't hold up across the board, then it's a poor argument.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you believe it is murder, yes, or no?

"Murder" is loaded language, it usually has a legal meaning, unlawful killing. Abortion is not murder under US law. So I would say no. But because it is the destruction of human life, it is sinful.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

"Murder" is loaded language, it usually has a legal meaning, unlawful killing. Abortion is not murder under US law. So I would say no. But because it is the destruction of human life, it is sinful.

So if putting an entire race to death were not unlawful, you'd say it's not murder?

 

[FireDragon76]

So if putting an entire race to death were not unlawful, you'd say it's not murder?

The Nuremburg Trials judged it as unlawful, so you are presenting a straw man.

Abortion is more complicated ethically. There are issues about the autonomy of women that cannot simply be swept aside in our ethical considerations. The Church should be a place of healing and reconciliation, not polemicism as exemplified by the concept of culture war.

If you want to work persuading people to not have abortions, I don't think you should be opposed. Even changing the laws is perhaps something comendable. But I don't think we should confuse that with the Gospel, which is about forgiveness of sins and eternal life. In short ,it's something about which the Church should be cautious politically.