Abortion Doctor Charged With Murder

[trunks2k]

I used to live around the corner from that guy's office. It was not what you would call a classy place - I wasn't even sure if it was even in use at all at the time. They shut it down a while ago citing multiple violations, I guess they finally got around to pressing the real charges.

 

[Billnew]

All sounds utterly awful, if accurate.

However... and call me pedant if you will... these ARE the actions of a sick person, suffering some sort of psychosis or psychopathy. And thats worrying, but its not actually part of his medical profession. I just have an issue with the idea that people, somewhere, will try to conflate these actions as endemic to all practitioners in the fertility field. Just you watch...

They will. People will link anything they think will help their arguement, true or not.

This would be happening all over the country if abortion was made illegal.

This was why I finally switched to early mid term abortions. This story is why I do not believe in late term abortions. If the baby can survive outside the mother's body, it should not be killed.
I believe education would help cut the number of abortions, let women know to seek an abortion early on, so they don't have to find a criminal to
do the procedure.

This doctor practiced "medicine" in a state with some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country. While I think this man was quite the lunatic and his apparent misogyny would have shown itself somehow had he not found an outlet in abusing patients -I tend to think vulnerable people with limited resources are very likely to find themselves in the hands of "doctors" like this more often than women who have significant resources when they are not able to access services and assistance earlier in their pregnancies, partially because of all the restrictions.

Like I said above,
Education; so they know they have to decide on the abortion before the third trimester, past that the baby is survivable, more so with each passing day.
education of the "Dr's" that perform these procedures, education on what the baby looks like in the final weeks of pregnancy, education on how to prevent pregnancy, even more so, how to prevent STD's.

I would assume money is not a problem, since they probably paid for the procedure in cash and up front.

I do not believe goverment should fund, nor force insurance companies to pay for abortions. I'm betting these patients didn't have insurance in the first place. If they could have gone to the Dr, I'm betting most would have known when they had to decide legally to end the pregnancy.

Goverment: taking peoples money to pay for the killing of a human life(in the eyes of the religious) makes all tax payers co-conspiritors in the killing.
IMO as long as late term abortion is legal, I agree with the statement above. This Dr murdered a baby outside the womb, what difference does it make if it is done inside? It is still the same baby. Just because the baby hadn't left the mothers body, means it can be killed?
Baby 1; 8months gestation, born a premature baby. Killing it would be murder.
baby2: 8month gestation, not born, excised from the mothers body in an abortion.
Life does not begin when the baby leaves the womb, it is a life sometime before that. Science can not pin point when this is. IMO two-three weeks after the youngest surviving premature baby, should be the latest abortion. Because if removed instead of aborted, it could survive. But removal should be illegal also. Sorry, mother should have the choice up to viability, then on, she must endure the few weeks she has left.

Abortion is not a simple issue.

What this man is accused of is not abortion.

Obviously, the state in which he practiced, might have the toughest laws, but must have the weakest enforcement of the simplest requirements.

How many women and living babies did he butcher?

 

[wanderingone]

This was why I finally switched to early mid term abortions. This story is why I do not believe in late term abortions. If the baby can survive outside the mother's body, it should not be killed.
I believe education would help cut the number of abortions, let women know to seek an abortion early on, so they don't have to find a criminal to
do the procedure.

Like you I do not support late term abortion. I believe that if a mother's life is in danger that it is acceptable to perform induce labor or perform a c-section even if it places the infant at risk. I personally do not feel this doctor himself believed he was performing any valuable medical procedure, a year ago (I believe his clinic was shut down last February?) he did an interview with a television news show- I forget who it was with, but it was a local fox affiliate in his area. Unlike a "true believer" he did not claim anything about providing desperate women with a necessary service. His claims were that sometimes his surgical skills were questioned but that he had no knowledge of patients being unhappy with his services (in spite of dozens of complaints with the department of health, the medical board etc..)

Like I said above, this to me is not a man who believes in women's rights -he's exploiting women in crisis situations for money as well as apparently for the thrill of collecting body parts.

Education; so they know they have to decide on the abortion before the third trimester, past that the baby is survivable, more so with each passing day.
education of the "Dr's" that perform these procedures, education on what the baby looks like in the final weeks of pregnancy, education on how to prevent pregnancy, even more so, how to prevent STD's.

I have said before on CF that when I was a pregnant teenager one of the things that allowed me to make a choice was New York's laws, I was able to get information, early, honest information. I had time to think things through because I didn't have to consider how I would get around restrictive laws. Certainly the information I already had, the community and family I had available to be also helped.

I would assume money is not a problem, since they probably paid for the procedure in cash and up front.

I believe money is a problem. Low income and uninsured women do not seek medical attention early and when they do they face restrictive policies that provide them inaccurate information. They don't have enough money for early procedures when public funding is not available, so they end up delaying care and either end up having babies when they have not had much prenatal care or seeking late term abortions when they finally scrounge up the money.

I do not believe goverment should fund, nor force insurance companies to pay for abortions. I'm betting these patients didn't have insurance in the first place. If they could have gone to the Dr, I'm betting most would have known when they had to decide legally to end the pregnancy.

Many probably didn't have insurance. However, even if they did, PA laws do not allow any publicy funded insurance to pay for abortions (including state employee insurance) unless the abortion is necessary to protect the life fo the mother or if the pregnancy is the result of a sexual assault that has been directly reported by the victim to law enforcement or CPS (unless the laws have changed recently, I no longer work directly with public health programs like medicaid so my knowledge is based on a time when I was involved in eligibility decision making and people would come to NY and get medicaid here for abortions)

Goverment: taking peoples money to pay for the killing of a human life(in the eyes of the religious) makes all tax payers co-conspiritors in the killing.

While I can comprehend this view, I don't agree - There are many things that are federally or locally funded that I don't agree with, that's the nature of the public bucket,

IMO as long as late term abortion is legal, I agree with the statement above. This Dr murdered a baby outside the womb, what difference does it make if it is done inside? It is still the same baby. Just because the baby hadn't left the mothers body, means it can be killed?
Baby 1; 8months gestation, born a premature baby. Killing it would be murder.
baby2: 8month gestation, not born, excised from the mothers body in an abortion.
Life does not begin when the baby leaves the womb, it is a life sometime before that. Science can not pin point when this is. IMO two-three weeks after the youngest surviving premature baby, should be the latest abortion. Because if removed instead of aborted, it could survive. But removal should be illegal also. Sorry, mother should have the choice up to viability, then on, she must endure the few weeks she has left.

I tend to agree, in general late term abortion is quite rare, I do believe that heavy handed restriction, and manipulation of information contributes to women ending up in the hands of a "doctor" like this

Obviously, the state in which he practiced, might have the toughest laws, but must have the weakest enforcement of the simplest requirements.

When things are forced underground you create victims for men like this doctor. - His patients apparently weren't powerful or valuable enough for the states (NY also licensed him and failed to do more than censure him now and then and make him pay small fines. )

How many women and living babies did he butcher?

I wonder if the real number will ever be known.

 

[Veritas]

This would be happening all over the country if abortion was made illegal.

But it is legal and it's still happening. Making it legal didn't make it safe or respectable. It also didn't change the type of medical "professional" attracted to such a "career".

This is a good example of why abortion should be and needs to stay legal. Stories like this would be endless if abortion were recriminalized.

Because it was much more rare before R v. W, abortion deaths, etc. are actually higher now than then.

 

[marshlewis]

Inducing a woman at eight months and killing the baby is not a late term abortion it is murder. There is no confusion under the law, nor as far as I can see under the most vitrolic pro-con argument parameters.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Inducing a woman at eight months and killing the baby is not a late term abortion it is murder. There is no confusion under the law, nor as far as I can see under the most vitrolic pro-con argument parameters.

Depends.

Was this guy doing it against the women's wishes? If so, then yes, murder.

If not, then it is the very definition of a late term abortion. (which I happen to consider murder, but it's irrelevant)

 

[Douger]

This is such a sad story for all involved, doctor, babies and mothers. Lord help them.

 

[marshlewis]

Depends.

Was this guy doing it against the women's wishes? If so, then yes, murder.

If not, then it is the very definition of a late term abortion. (which I happen to consider murder, but it's irrelevant)

I was under the impression that the limit for late term was 26 weeks. What is the limit?

 

[revanneosl]

Why on Earth did no one check this out earlier?

The Grand Jury has asked this very question.

Is he like a serial killer keeping souvenirs???

That's exactly what he's like. And remember, the police didn't raid the facility because he was treating women & children badly. They raided the facility because of a drug charge.

I do not believe goverment should fund, nor force insurance companies to pay for abortions. I'm betting these patients didn't have insurance in the first place. If they could have gone to the Dr, I'm betting most would have known when they had to decide legally to end the pregnancy.

Goverment: taking peoples money to pay for the killing of a human life(in the eyes of the religious) makes all tax payers co-conspiritors in the killing.

I disagree. If the poorest of Americans have to "save up" before they can pay for this procedure, rather than it being covered by Medicaid, they will, of necessity, have their choice in provider narrowed to those very few doctors who will perform late-term abortions, which are also riskier to the woman's health.

My tax money goes to pay for the killing of human life all the time in the form of the Armed Forces and Capital Punishment. I strenuously object to both of these uses, but I don't for one minute suggest that the Armed Forces should be privately funded by those who approve of them, or that we should take up a voluntary collection from those who wish to see the Death Penalty continue.

Though I have to say, that second one - funding the Death Penalty by private donation - that's got real possibilities.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I was under the impression that the limit for late term was 26 weeks. What is the limit?

I think that varies per state.

Tiller was performing abortions as late as 36 weeks if I remember correctly, and he did so within the bounds of the law (although there's some questions as to whether he was falsifying records to do so).

 

[wanderingone]

I think that varies per state.

Tiller was performing abortions as late as 36 weeks if I remember correctly, and he did so within the bounds of the law (although there's some questions as to whether he was falsifying records to do so).

It does vary by state, and some laws are enjoined by federal laws that over ride them, but as far as I can recall none of the laws that govern last trimester abortion specify week of pregnancy. I know a number talk about viability, and may not disallow abortion, but require a 2nd doctor to be available to treat the infant if it is viable. Guttmacher has a recent state by state document

 

[lux et lex]

Though I have to say, that second one - funding the Death Penalty by private donation - that's got real possibilities.

Yes, I quite like this.

 

[wanderingone]

Yes, I quite like this.

Kind of like religious law huh? If you believe in it you get to fund it and enact it, and if you don't... oh well?

 

[lux et lex]

Kind of like religious law huh? If you believe in it you get to fund it and enact it, and if you don't... oh well?

No. I'm just vehemently against the death penalty. The state shouldn't be able to kill its citizens. And if people individually paid for an execution and see how much money it actually takes to legally kill a person (automatic appeals, jail, execution supplies and expertise, etc) perhaps through cost/benefit analysis they would realize it's not worth it.

 

[jsn112]

Assuming these allegations are true, this is pretty much what back-alley abortionists used to do back in the bad old days. Roe v. Wade apparently didn't eliminate all of it. But we could relive the bad old days even more if all elective abortions are criminalized.

You mean this is like someone that hires a hitman or contracting killing in the "back-ally?" So, it would be better if this is done in public? Before you start disagreeing, this is all semantics.

 

[jsn112]

Kinda like people trying to attribute the actions of a sick Loughner who tried to assassinate a congresswoman in Az. to right wingers in general and gun rights people in particular. BTW, I agree with your sentiment, only I'd apply it to the Az shootings as well, no exceptions.

And it turns out that Loughner is a liberal. A liberal killing a liberal and the liberal blame it on the conservatives. The liberals calling the conservative "crazies," but it's funny that it's usually the liberals who are the ones that are pulling the triggers. Example:

- Sirhan Sirhan killing of Robert Kennedy
- John Wilkes Booth killing of Abraham Lincoln
- John Hinckley shot Reagan
- etc.

 

[jsn112]

This is a good example of why abortion should be and needs to stay legal. Stories like this would be endless if abortion were recriminalized.

I'm sorry to hear that there weren't any abortion clinics near your address 25 years ago, huh?

 

[jsn112]

No. I'm just vehemently against the death penalty. The state shouldn't be able to kill its citizens. And if people individually paid for an execution and see how much money it actually takes to legally kill a person (automatic appeals, jail, execution supplies and expertise, etc) perhaps through cost/benefit analysis they would realize it's not worth it.

that's why there should be a LIMIT to the appealing process! That's an easy fix.

 

[lux et lex]

that's why there should be a LIMIT to the appealing process! That's an easy fix.

But then that isn't justice and innocent people die.

 

[Gishin]

And it turns out that Loughner is a liberal.

Are you sure he wasn't just insane?

Oh right, you guys don't see a difference.