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Abomination of desolation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Rafael, Jun 26, 2003.

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  1. RaptureTicketHolder

    RaptureTicketHolder Selectively Agreeable

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    Hello there JM

    The new temple is not for US, the Gentile Christian (since you have truthly reassued me of your Christian disposition, Ill use US for reference).

    Think about it. Who is this new, yet to be built temple for?

    Why is Revelation in place, and Ill give you a hint, its not a plan for the Christians.....
     
  2. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi R T H,

    Rev 21

    22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

    I don't need a temple.

    Justme
     
  3. ArtistEd

    ArtistEd Junior Member

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    The following phrases are found in the Bible.

    the wrath of the Lord... the Lord's wrath...

    the anger of the Lord.... the Lord's anger...

    the vengeance of the Lord... the Lord's vengeance

    the day of the Lord... the Lord's day...


    Nowhere in the Bible: the Lord's day = 1st day of the week.

    John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. Just goes to show how quickly the doctrines and traditions of man can creep into the Church. Before you know it you had whole system claiming to be the true Church, which came to it's logical conclusion with the inquisition.

    Ed
     
  4. Atkin

    Atkin Member

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    Wherein lies the mystery of God's end time if everything is so predictable

    by mere mortals? Prophecy especially what lies ahead will be fulfilled in a manner

    that would require very close and literally step by step following as events unfold in sequence. At this time, to lay out what Satan will do and when a temple is built

    etc makes God's end time events very trite and mere simple sequences

    build a temple, Satan sits in, and so on. No, it is not seen easily especially Satan's location etc


    When Daniel was given his visions, it took some time for what He wrote to be available
    to the people living in areas where the events took place. daniel's visions about the kings of the north, south etc..is the 4 dominions of the post Greek empire, the conflicts in and around Jerusalem before before Imperial Rome took control of that area before the birth of Christ etc were not in Bibles being read by many people as we have today for in those days, only the high level scribes etc would have these texts available to themselves.
    Daniel 11:1-35 etc happened exactly as prophesised but many would not have known for the Bible was not a common text yet, before the birth of Christ. Hence the events would have happened without many even realising it.

    These prophecies were not known to many and as such were fulfilled without most people being aware of their fulfilment.

    Now we have copies of the Bible available worldwide. God in his wisdom did not explicitly name 21 st century countries directly in Revelations. Hence we try interpreting what we see and linking it to 21st century dominions, nations etc. Hence, we are trying to relate those ancient beasts to our current 21st century nations etc obviously we will falter at many stages as changes take place in our global scene every few months etc.

    The temple being rebuilt, Satan sitting there in a predictable manner blaspheming etc

    This is quite simplistic and God's wisdom is not that easily revealed.
     
  5. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Why do you not give me your own answer?

    Justme quote.
    “I will group your comments and questions into the following:
    Your list of 'did we see this or that event.'
    Apparently, yes we did.
    Here is the link. Read Chapter 5 section 3.
    http://wesley.nnu.edu/josephus/war-6.htm
    Actually it fits so good I suspect it is manipulated, but I don't know.”

    My reply,,,
    What events?
    What link?
    You disagree with me, that Revelation 11 is future, then give me someone else’s opinion?
    A STORY that DOES NOT ANSWER ANY of the questions put by me from Revelation 11!
    Why do you say,
    “apparently, yes we did.”

    You don’t seem to be able to answer any of Revelation 11 in any detail by yourself?

    I must apologise to anyone that sees fit to read this discussion again, but it is necessary to go through it, one more time to make the point and a new one that I have kept to last.

    Since Justme, was supposed to group my questions together and stating that the Wesley centre online story “fits so good,” I thought I would list my questions again and any person that wishes can see how well the Wesley centre online fits.

    My previous statements and questions were as follows and not one is answered by the Wesley centre online people, who are not to be blamed for their misapplied answer being adapted by Justme. You know the one Justme said was,

    QUOTE. “Actually it fits so good I suspect it is manipulated, but I don't know.”

    When folk state to me things that resemble Justme’s last remark, then I start spending my time reading the highly praised article to no benefit whatsoever in relation to Rev 11 being the subject at hand.

    When we look at Revelation 11, John is told to measure the Temple of God where the Two Witnesses are that are to witness for 1260 days.

    Revelation 11:1.And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the TEMPLE OF GOD, and the ALTER, and them that worship therein.

    John of course is speaking of the earthly Temple of God, because the court and Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles for 42 months. 3 ½ years. That is far shorter than the length that the Romans ran things back then.

    2.But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    If and I mean “if Revelation was written before the Temple’s destruction,” and was to be related the that Temple before its destruction we would have seen the following.

    Did the two witnesses in sackcloth witness for 1260 days in 70 to 74AD?

    Were their dead bodies left in the street for 3 ½ days and did all nations and tongues see this?

    Were they raised at the seventh trumpet which is at the second resurrection and at the time of the end ?

    Did we see the Romans quake with fear when they were raised?

    Seeing then that the Seven trumpet is sounded at the end of the two witnesses period of 1260 plus 3 ½ days later when raised, did all go through the seven trumpet and three woe periods during 70 to 74AD?

    Did any in 70 AD hear the voice of God call them the two witnesses up 3 ½ days after they were killed by the beast with the mortal wound?

    Did all this come to pass within the 2300 evening and morning period of Daniel 8:13, that’s about 6 and a bit years?

    Did the Romans only trample on the city for 3 ½ years or was it longer?

    Daniel 8:13. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed

    Did it stop raining for 1260 days back then whilst the two witnesses were supposedly witnessing?

    Did we see the sanctuary cleansed in 77AD after the 2300 days of Daniel12:14. after it was smashed to bits in 70AD?

    How could it be cleansed when it was destroyed?

    Did we see the beast with the mortal wound around 70AD?

    The two witnesses appear within the tribulation period at the time of the end did that happen in 70AD?

    Did we see in Daniel 12:12 in the year 77AD a blessing for those that got through that 1335 day period?

    Did we see the plagues such as those described in Rev 11?

    Did we see their enemies have a party and send gifts to each other in 74AD?

    Did we see the great earthquake destroy a third of the city?

    Did the Saints get there reward in 74AD or did John miss out because he was still alive?

    Did we see Jesus destroy them that destroy the earth?



    Rev 11:3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
     
  6. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

    6. These have power to SHUT HEAVEN, that IT NOT RAIN not in the DAYS OF THEIR PROPHECY: and have power over WATERS to turn them to BLOOD, and to SMITE the earth with ALL PLAGUES, as often as they will.
    7And when they shall have finished their testimony, THE BEAST that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and KILL THEM.
    8And their DEAD BODIES shall lie IN THE STREET of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.
    9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and NATIONS SHALL SE THEIR DEAD BODIES three days and an half, and shall NOT suffer their dead bodies to be PUT IN GRAVES graves.
    10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and MAKE MERRY, and shall SEND GIFTS one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    11And AFTER THREE DAYS and an HALF the Spirit of LIFE from GOD entered into them, and THEY STOOD UPON THEIR FEET; and GREAT FEAR fell upon them which SAW them.
    12And they HEARD A GREAT VOICE FROM HEAVEN saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ASCENDED up to HEAVEN in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
    13And the same hour was there a GREAT EARTHQUAKE, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The KINGDOM OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME the kingdoms OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall REIGN FOR EVER and ever.
    16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD UNTO THY SERVANTS THE PROPHETS, and to the SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY THEM THAT DESTROY THE EARTH.
    19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an EARTHQUAKE, and great hail.

    Now for the information that you suggested was supposed to be the one that, “fits so good.”

    Justme quote.
    “Actually fits so good I suspect it is manipulated, but I don't know.”

    HERE IT IS….. Wesley centre online.

    3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

    My conclusion? Well if anyone can find one answer to any of my question in that last lot, then please tell me?


    Justme quote.
    Also most of the Book of Revelation is talking about a vision that includes events that happen in Heaven. We would not expect the ordinary mortal living person to see these things.

    My reply,, Well why did John bother writing Revelation to us poor “ordinary mortals” through the Bible? And if you had paid attention then you would as seen by the rest of us “ordinary mortals” that Rev 19 is about us, the redeemed in Heaven! The promise of things to come.

    Also, The seventh trumpet is at the first resurrection Paul states, in 1st Corinthians 15:52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Now Justme,,, just think for at least one second for yourself and look at where the 7th trumpet is blown and where the third woe kicks in. It is at Rev 11 in the future. John was taken to the future not the past.

    Rev 11:11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard A GREAT VOICE FROM HEAVEN saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
     
  7. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Rev 11:14. The SECOND WOE IS PAST; and, behold, THE THIRD WOE COMETH QUICKLY. 15And the SEVENTH ANGEL sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    The above is at the first resurrection so John was taken into the future. How plain is that to understand?

    Justme quote.
    Your comments about the time of writing of the Book of Revelation.
    As I said earlier this is a VISION of mostly heavenly events and where does it say John was taken to heaven at a future time or was John transported BACK in time.

    Yes and I stick to what I said and gave the opinions of scholars, however if you reject that and believe that “ Revelation 11 is past” then how is it that the SEVENTH TRUMPET IS BLOWN and third woe kicks in during John’s vision?
    Because even basic beginner Bible students know that that occurs at HIS second coming AND IS AT THE FIRST RESURRECTION! Future.

    No Justme, he was not “transported BACK in time.”
    The resurrection did not occur back then.
    Why can’t you think for yourself with your God given intelligence and SEE that the seventh trumpet is at “the time of the end.”


    Justme
    The fact that terms such as 'soon to come' about to ... means nothing, John is simply recording under the devine inspiration of God, what he saw in a vision. ( I think John saw the vision in his later years too, but I don't see why it matters when he saw it and for sure it is irrelevent when he wrote it.)

    My reply, It is about our FUTURE here on Earth during the tribulation period and the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls of the wrath of God, then our resurrection into Heaven at trumpet 7, then our blessing and preparing for Armageddon back on Earth then battle within 15 months, then reigning with Christ for a 1000 years, on Earth and evil being done away with after the 1000 years 2nd resurrection, then the old Earth and hell hades being destroyed and then the new heaven and Earth being made.
    But again the seventh trumpet is a real problem for you to deal with Justme and ED for that matter I was hoping that you would see it.


    Justme quote.
    Concerning your mention of John measuring the temple, I really don't know why you would go there. One of the ways John COULD measure that temple is because the vision DOES begin prior to the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. There is more scriptural proof for that than the building of a future temple.

    My reply,,
    “Why I would go there?”
    It is the BIBLE that takes us there, not me.

    You have no proof that John wrote Revelation before the Temple’s destruction.
    Daniel (is linked with Revelation) and Daniel is told by Gabriel, “understand the vision concerns the time of the end” and that is NOT 2000 years ago!
    The third woe comes in with trumpet number 7 and that as everyone should know, is at the first resurrection.

    Justme quote.
    Hebrews 9
    8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

    My answer,, You forget that the Jews did not recognise Jesus as their Messiah come, so of course they want to build a new Temple and they do not recognise Hebrews 9. It is the Jews that will build it again. That is what John is talking about.


    Justme quote.
    Some have tried to tell me that the above verse refers to another temple of some other time, but no:
    9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.
    Present time= this generation of Christ and His deciples.
    Further to that:
    10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
    It explains that the old carrying on at the temple was window dressing and the real Mc Coy is available in the new order. Hence, some old order ends=end of the times.
    Says so again here:
    6Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    My reply,,
    The above, verses were not mentioned by me at all. It is not Christians like myself that want that Temple built or need it to be built again, so it is no good telling me about Hebrews, tell it to the Jews in Jerusalem who want to rebuild the Temple on the mount.



    Justme quote.
    I realize for you to get your theology to fit you either have to have two great tribulations or build another temple, but she ain't looking good from either angle.

    My reply,, What did you say?,,,, ”two tribulations”? That shows how much attention you have paid to the discussion. I HAVE ONLY MENTIONED ONE TRIBULATION! Boy o boy, at least get it right and stop putting words in my mouth!
    How do you get your theology to fit 2000 years ago when every Bible student knows, the last trumpet mentioned in Rev 11 is at the first resurrection, now get around that for starters and tell us all how that happened 2000 years ago?
    Come on, stop and think and read, what sayeth the Bible.

    Justme quote
    You listed a number of biblical verses that I have no problem fitting in to my understanding here.
    Have you other arguments?

    My reply, yes I have.
    Why should I put more here when you haven’t even answered the stuff placed here already?

    Justme’s question to me.
    Would you lay out what you feel Hebrews 9: 26 is saying?

    My reply,,, Yes I will if you tell me how the 7th trumpet can be blown heralding the first resurrection some 2000 years ago?
    I am not in conflict with Hebrews, it is not me that wants to rebuild the Temple, it is the Jews that want this.


    Why do you not answer Rev 11 properly verse by verse particularly Rev 11: 11 to 15?

    The Bible is a Jewish book, and I have no problem with Hebrews at all.
    Let me make this quite clear I don’t need or want a new Temple to be rebuilt, because I believe ALL of Hebrews.
    You seem to think that it is me that wants it and that is not what I said at all. We as Christians don’t need it or want it.
    However a Jew is a different matter, they want it.


    Justme quote.
    I read it word for word direct. He appeared once for all at the end of the age. He gave the final sacrifice for all mankind at the end of the age.
    I don't need a new temple, why would you?
    Justme

    Well,,, You have asked me that question about needing a new Temple before, which I said “I don’t need a new Temple,” in my last post, which indicates to me, that you do not read carefully the answers I have given you .
    Let me repeat it. It is the Jews that want to rebuild it and they have stated so many times.
    You don’t “read word for word,” again you ignore Math 24. Mark 13. and Luke 21 completely when they asked Jesus about “the end of the age, which they associated with HIS second coming, because they ask what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age.
    Matt 24: 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and WHAT shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD? KJV.

    So don’t tell me that two thousand years ago was the end of the age.
    Now, if you and Ed insist that Revelation 11 deals with 70AD then I have just one little question for you both. Just ONE that’s all.

    If as you claim Revelation is for the past.
    How is it that the seventh trumpet is sounded, and the two witnesses are raised from the dead, which only happens at the first resurrection with woe three in Rev 11?

    Maranatha.
    Prophecy countdown.
     
  8. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Prophecy Countdown,

    Wow, what a mess.

    Here goes.

    YOU WROTE:

    My reply,,,
    What events?
    What link?
    You disagree with me, that Revelation 11 is future, then give me someone else’s opinion?
    A STORY that DOES NOT ANSWER ANY of the questions put by me from Revelation 11!
    Why do you say,
    “apparently, yes we did.”
    *******************************

    Uh, this was from Flavius Josephus, an ancient historian who just happened to be in the province of Judea in the 70's AD.

    So when I say apparently "yes, we did, I mean some of these things you asked about were seen by that observer. Is this account of the ancient historian correct? I don't know, but it agrees with the bible. A bit too close maybe, as I said.
    What else can I tell you?

    You wrote:
    My conclusion? Well if anyone can find one answer to any of my question in that last lot, then please tell me?
    ***********************
    You are referring to the link to the Josephus work. I might just add this is not some 'article' by some guy named Wesly.....

    Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.
    The above was from Josephus, does that sound like maybe the celestial display which includes the coming of the son of man?

    Again from Josephus on the celestial display.
    and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.

    How about this, was God helping the enemy to destroy a wicked generation and destroy the earthly symbol of a old covenant?

    Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies....Josephus..

    From Josephus....
    for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

    Does this fit in with the Revelation story of the 200 thousand thousand horseman?

    Maybe just read that chapter of Josephus again and then it will become apparent that if these things happened in his lifetime. It sounds suspiciously like the rebellion against the Jews and Jerusalem and covers a lot of the things mentioned in Mark 13, Luke 21 and Matt 24.

    In other works Josephus tells of father killing children, child killing parent and mothers roasting infants to eat in this Jewish war. That fits biblically with:

    Mark 13

    "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.

    YOU WROTE:

    Why can’t you think for yourself with your God given intelligence and SEE that the seventh trumpet is at “the time of the end.”

    Yes,but at the time of what end, so I laid out a verse which shows you when the end was.
    Hebrews 9
    26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    The end of the ages.....the first coming was at the 'end of the ages....

    You mentioned Matthew 24:3 and the end of the ages, Hebrews 9:26 talks about the end of the age as well. If you prefer you can use the KJV and there the word is 'world' as it is 'world' in Matthew in the KJV. So now where are we with the 'time of the end?'

    You want to know about Rev 11, well, it has to agree with the rest of the bible including Hebrews 9:26.

    You talk about the first resurrection. I assume the resurrection described in Rev 20:4 and 6. You say that is at the 7th trump and then you mention 1 Cor 15.

    Sorry, don't fit. I have been thru this a lot lately for some reason, anyway.

    The first resurrection of Rev 20:4 and 6 is the ones who will reign with christ for 1000 years. Says so right there. It is important to note that the first resurrection is of people who need not fear the second death. Daniel for instance was to die and sleep in the dust and be raised at the time of the future great tribulation when:
    Daniel 12
    2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    The rest of the dead will:
    Rev 20
    5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)..................

    So now we have a group of 'dead' who will not be raised until after the 1000 year reign. So now let's look at Paul's words in 1 Cor 15:52.

    52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    Those 'rest of the dead' will be raised. When will that be? Well, actually they will be raised before Paul himself or at least some of those that Paul is writing to because:

    1 Thess 4
    15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep

    So I think it is you that has to re-think that 7th trumpet. There is a 1000 years in there somewhere and it doesn't include you or me. We are in Paul's group, at or after the coming of the son of man.

    You wrote:

    So don’t tell me that two thousand years ago was the end of the age.
    *******************

    The end of the age was when Christ sacrificed Himself. When was that?
    Hebrews 9
    26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    So, hey, I'm not telling you that the end of the age was 2000 years ago, Hebrews 9:26 is telling you that. It is written right there.

    Maybe we should look at the KJV.

    26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Justme







    Rev 11
    18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
    The time has come for judging the dead,
     
  9. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Atkin, has made some statements and I want to see if what was stated agrees with the Bible. It will be for you to think about.

    Atkin quote.
    “Wherein lies the mystery of God's end time if everything is so predictable
    by mere mortals?”

    My reply.
    The mystery of God, will only be understood at Rev 10:7.

    Rev 10:7. But in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall BEGIN TO SOUND, the mystery of God should be FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    When is the seventh angel heard?
    Rev 11:15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The KINGDOM OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME the kingdoms OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    The resurrection is at the seventh trumpet when God ushers in His kingdom.

    Rev 11:11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a GREAT VOICE FROM HEAVEN saying unto them, Come up hither.

    Jesus said in 2 Tim 2:15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Prophecy IS the TESTIMONY of Jesus, Jesus told John for us to read and understand. Or should we think that Jesus was wasting His time telling us “mere mortals?”

    If some folk can’t grasp it, it doesn’t mean that the rest of us can’t or do they think they are so much wiser, that they can tell us “mere mortals” what we can and can’t understand?

    Rev1:2. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    If the word of God is not for our understanding, then speak for ourselves and admit it. But we do not assume the extent of understanding of the word by other serious Bible students, it is not our position to make such statements about other people’s abilities or gifts from God, and is patronising. We must use the Bible to back up our statements on matters of prophecy.

    Rev 12:17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMNANT of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

    What is the testimony of Jesus Christ?
    The gift of prophecy, written in this Book.
    They, the wise, shall understand but the wicked shall not understand.

    Rev 19:10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

    Daniel 12:10. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and NONE OF THE WICKED SHALL UNDERSTAND but THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND

    The Bible says we will understand, yet some say we “mere mortals” can’t.

    Daniel 8:17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

    The Bible is in direct opposition to the statements about the vision of Daniel being fulfilled way back around 2000 years ago.

    We are told TO WATCH, but as far as some folk are concerned it’s a done deal way back some 2000 years ago.

    Luke 21:36. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, and TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF GOD.

    Atkin quote.
    Prophecy especially what lies ahead will be fulfilled in a manner
    that would require very close and literally step by step following as events unfold in sequence. At this time, to lay out what Satan will do and when a temple is built
    etc makes God's end time events very trite and mere simple sequences
    build a temple, Satan sits in, and so on. No, it is not seen easily especially Satan's location etc

    My reply.
    All the things in the above last statement are true eccept the bit about them being (“trite and mere simple sequences,” ) the rest is mentioned in the Bible and if Atkin says they are “trite” then that’s his right, if that’s his opinion.

    Atkin quote.
    When Daniel was given his visions, it took some time for what He wrote to be available
    to the people living in areas where the events took place. daniel's visions about the kings of the north, south etc..is the 4 dominions of the post Greek empire, the conflicts in and around Jerusalem before before Imperial Rome took control of that area before the birth of Christ etc were not in Bibles being read by many people as we have today for in those days, only the high level scribes etc would have these texts available to themselves.



    My reply.
    The Bible was not around when Abraham started a new nation, however as time passed the Jews looked to the prophecies of the Old Testaments and we look to both Old and New testament prophecies.

    Moses had about 5 or 6 Books the Disciples had about 39, and we have 66 books, therefor we have greater leverage of understanding. John was the last of the twelve alive when he wrote Revelation and I doubt whether the others saw it.

    The angel Gabriel told Daniel the vision concerns the time of the end.
    The vision was not for those living around two thousand years ago, even Daniel did not understand the vision and that is the way God meant it to be.
    So it did not matter that the Book of Daniel was, as you say not available for our forebears to read does it.

    The prophecies are for the time of the end.

    Daniel’s book is sealed UNTIL the TIME OF THE END and you seem to get disturbed when folk try to study and understand it?
    You don’t have to read their study papers and if this is the way you feel about prophecy being fulfilled then what are you doing here at the eschatological site?
     
  10. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Atkin quote.
    Daniel 11:1-35 etc happened exactly as prophesised but many would not have known for the Bible was not a common text yet, before the birth of Christ. Hence the events would have happened without many even realising it.


    My reply.
    That is arrant theoretical philosophical nonsense. Daniel is linked with Revelation. Daniel’s vision is for “the time of the end,” that is what the angel said and some seem to have great difficulty understanding that FACT.
    I get a bit sick and tired of folk who HALF read the Bible then on that basis, start making foolish statements based on their deliberate, wilful ignorance of what the Bible says and judge what others understand!

    Daniel and Revelation are inexstricably linked and in Revelation 11 we have the Temple that John is told to measure and please, don’t tell me that John was referring to the past because in Rev 11: 15. The seventh trumpet will be blown and every BIBLE student Christian knows that, that is at the FIRST RESURRECTION to eternal life.

    That is the Bible’s word on it so, for some I say, get used to it!

    Rev 11:15. And the SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    1st Corinthians 15:52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


    Atkin quote.
    These prophecies were not known to many and as such were fulfilled without most people being aware of their fulfilment.


    My reply.
    Again some make sweeping statements that are not inline with the Bible.
    The Prophecies of Daniel regarding the vision of the four beasts are for the “time of the end” that is what the angel Gabriel said and is directly opposite to what some are trying to put across.


    Atkin quote.
    Now we have copies of the Bible available worldwide. God in his wisdom did not explicitly name 21 st century countries directly in Revelations. Hence we try interpreting what we see and linking it to 21st century dominions, nations etc. Hence, we are trying to relate those ancient beasts to our current 21st century nations etc obviously we will falter at many stages as changes take place in our global scene every few months etc.


    My reply.
    Even God doesn’t agree with the above last statement.
    God stated Satan’s intentions clearly and they are dead opposite to the above quoted statement.
    Isaiah 14:13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I WILL SIT ALSO UPON THE MOUNTOF THE CONGREGATION, IN THE SIDES OF THE NORTH.

    Atkin quote.
    The temple being rebuilt, Satan sitting there in a predictable manner blaspheming etc


    My reply.
    Well done, that last statement quoted the Bible.


    Atkin quote.
    This is quite simplistic and God's wisdom is not that easily revealed.


    My reply.
    “Simplistic ?” Well I think before people criticise anything others believe they should understand it completely themselves, otherwise their criticism would be based on a, little knowledge and that would be taken as lightly as a pinch of salt..

    Why don’t they explain this “quite simplistic” teaching and show us why they think it is so simple, USING THE BIBLE AS PROOF OF COURSE and I will watch and see by diligently reading everything they say and use the Bible to find the truth.


    Why don’t these folk explain Revelation 11 to us all, and take their time, I’m a very patient man.
    Maybe they can show us how Rev 11 fits into the past, also teach us about the Temple in Rev 11 and explain that for us as being in the past.
    Then they can try and explain why the 7th trumpet is sounded and the dead in Christ can rise if it is all in the past.

    They are going to have to do better than state their philosophical opinions, either they read what the Bible says or they don’t, but please no more theories that fly in the face of what the Lord told John calling it a revelation which means a revealing.

    Some may think “mere mortals” are too dumb to understand, but Jesus didn’t, that is why the Lord and Palmini and Gabriel explained it to Daniel and through John who recorded it as Revelation to us, and said we should study to be a workman approved and worthy unto God.

    P. C.
     
  11. Atkin

    Atkin Member

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    Atkin quote.
    Daniel 11:1-35 etc happened exactly as prophesised but many would not have known for the Bible was not a common text yet, before
    the birth of Christ. Hence the events would have happened without many even realising it.
    ------------------------------

    Seek help from knowledgeable Bible students and get them to explain to you

    the events that took place centuries ago regarding the three kings that arose in

    Persia

    Daniel is NOT restricted to the future and I REPEAT THE FACT that Daniel 11:1-35

    has taken place already. There WILL BE NO primitive, foot soldier INFANTRY BATTLES as described with

    Daniel 11:5-28 THE KING OF THE NORTH , king of the south, ancient warfare tactics

    Were you asleep during the Iraq war?

    MISSILES, GUIDED BOMBS, mobile personnel carriers, submarines etc ARE WHAT WILL FEATURE IN ANY FUTURE BATTLES, but the dumb Bible readers just babble and repeat what they see without proper interpretations.

    Read Daniel 11:5-29 and tell the forum WHICH ANCIENT ARMIES WOULD FIGHT in such a primitive fashion -- AND AFTER ALEXANDER THE GREAT DIED, only a blank person would not be aware of the EVENTS THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE GREEK DOMINIONS after Alexander and in relation to Daniel 11:5-35.

    The Bible is not just repeated with no reason but read with discernment since God's wisdom is not on the level of mere mortals.


    21st century warfare would not be described as such.... only those with extremely poor interpretation would make such comparisons.

    It was ludicrous of you to assume that THE ENTIRE Daniel is sealed up totally till the end.

    Certain chapters mentioning judgement as in Daniel 7:9-14 and Daniel 12:1-13 are THOSE YET TO BE FULFILLED. Common sense would make that obvious to anyone. The Ancient of Days only manifests himself at the judgement end time.

    Avoid deluding yourself with your meagre scriptural knowledge.
     
  12. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Justme quote.
    Uh, this was from Flavius Josephus, an ancient historian who just happened to be in the province of Judea in the 70's AD.
    So when I say apparently "yes, we did, I mean some of these things you asked about were seen by that observer. Is this account of the ancient historian correct? I don't know, but it agrees with the bible. A bit too close maybe, as I said.
    What else can I tell you?

    My reply.
    I use the Bible as the only source of truth and not the historian Flavius Josephus.
    Flavius Josephus, does not take precedence over the Lord’s word through the Bible’s Prophets and Disciples?
    This is eschatology site the Greek word eskhatos.
    Preterists come here and argue against eschatology?
    Why don’t they go to some prophecy fulfilled historic type site to vent their bent?

    eschatology | esktldi | n. M19. [f. Gk eskhatos last + -OLOGY.] The branch of theology that deals with the four LAST THINGS (DEATH JUDGEMENT HEAVEN, and HELL) and the FINAL DESTINY of the soul and of HUMANKIND; A DOCTRINE or belief about the SECOND COMING or the kingdom of God.
    realized eschatology: see REALIZE 1.
    eschatological a. M19. eschatologically adv. in relation to eschatology E20. eschatologist n. L19. eschatologize v.t. give an eschatological character to E20.

    My previous statement, is still valid about Flavius Josephus.
    My conclusion remains.
    No one has been able to relate the clear prophetic statements made by our Lord Jesus, about the events culminating in HIS SECOND ADVENT, to something that happened 2000 years ago recorded by Josephus.

    The spirit of prophecy and it’s fulfilment is not with Flavius Josephus’ historic writings. Jesus HIMSELF will be the MANIFISTATION and FULFILMENT of BIBLE PROPHECY, by His OWN POWER, and not by a historic event minutely resembling a mistaken viewpoint of “prophecy fulfilled.”
    The signs of His coming will be in the EXACT way HE said they would be and not one detail be left out.

    Not the slightest detail was left out regarding HIS first prophesied advent, the same applies to HIS second.
    This whole subject is about redemption and ALL that goes with it, including our understanding through faith in HIS abilities to carry it out in the way HE said He would, in detail.

    Justme quote.
    You are referring to the link to the Josephus work.
    Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.
    The above was from Josephus, does that sound like maybe the celestial display which includes the coming of the son of man?

    My reply there is NO “link”, it doesn’t exist.
    Josephus was a Jewish priest and was a Roman citizen.
    Read what he says and ask.

    Was he a Christian and was he for Jesus?
    The Bible gives the story of the star that heralded our Lord’s first coming according to the three wise men. The star was a sign of HIS FIRST ADVENT, a guiding star for the three wise men, who brought gifts, the Bible’s account is very detailed on this matter.

    When Flavius Josephus mentions the star what doe he say?

    Flavius Joseph’s quote. “like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.”

    Flavius Josephus does NOT include Jesus Christ as his Saviour in his writings that were shown to me, as some sort of example of “prophecy fulfilment.”
    It just doesn’t fit all the requirements.

    Also we can’t be selective by pulling prophecy apart, by only picking a tiny portion here then there, that happen to fit in with Josephus.

    Selecting this part and leaving out that part of prophecy, that have not been fulfilled, is just too selective for me.
    Jesus did not come back in 70AD.
    The SIGNS and wonders of HIS return mean just that, SIGNS of His ADVENT.

    The two are linked, and to forget that fact and the fact that He did not return, just to make a fraction of prophecy fit, is an application of those events and is a construct and distortion of them.
    It is like a wedding without the groom or bride turning up!
     
  13. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Signs and wonders in the heavens and HIS advent are linked, otherwise what would be the point of the signs of His coming?

    Or it could be the wrong event the wrong time, wrong application, resulting in the fact that not EVERY EYE DID SEE HIM AT ALL!
    “A celestial display about the coming of the son of man?
    No, it did not happen.

    Rev 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Where were all the folk that pierced him? Were they there? Did they see HIM COMING?
    The soldiers that killed HIM were soldiers on the victors side, surrounding Jerusalem.
    Did ALL THE KINDREDS OF THE EARTH WAIL because of HIM?

    It was not even a dummy run, a dud, a fake, the advent that wasn’t and didn’t happen.

    Justme quote.
    Again from Josephus on the celestial display.
    and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.
    How about this, was God helping the enemy to destroy a wicked generation and destroy the earthly symbol of a old covenant?

    Let’s have a look at using Historians, as the link with the Bible’s prophecies.
    It is a dangerous practice and can lead to strange results.

    In the year 1780AD the sun did not give it’s light in some parts of the USA and 53 years later in 1833AD there was a meteoric phenomenon which was said by witnesses, to be so “astounding” because it was light enough to read a newspaper by.

    Seventh Day Adventists saw it as “a sign of his coming,”
    applied the same verse that Justme applies to 70AD. Then were foolish enough to quote, Rev.6:12 around the place as being a sign of the second advent.

    Rev 6:12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a GREAT EARTHQUAKE; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood.
    Well,,, there was no great earthquake in 1780AD, just the same as there was no great earthquake in 70AD.

    Rev 6:13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    It’s in the biblical detail, that’s the thing to watch for. We have to look for, truth in the Bible. Only the Gospel let’s us know what is and what isn’t.

    As far as the “bright day time,” around the Temple that could have been the whole place going up in flames.

    Lets have a look at the preterists extra biblical writer Flavius Josephus, and see if he was inspired by Jesus and was a follower.
    We must also ask, when Jesus was asked about the end of the age and His second coming, did Jesus say to Matt Mark Luke read Josephus or Daniel.

    Not one Bible writer was instructed to use the writings of Josephus.
    So why do the preterists?
    Josephus was not a Disciple or prophet in any shape or form.

    Josephus, Flavius, b. Joseph ben Matthias (b. c.AD 37), Jewish historian, priest, and soldier. A visit to Rome in AD 64 left in him a lasting impression of Rome's power and culture. Although hostile to the nationalist extremists, he was given command in Galilee in the Jewish revolt against Nero, but after his capture in 67 went over to the Romans. Settled in Rome, he became a Roman citizen and was given a pension. His most important works were his histories of the revolt and its antecedents (Bellum Judaicum, The Jewish War), and of the Jewish people from the Creation to the reign of Nero (Antiquitates Judaica, Antiquities of the Jews). His Vita (Life) is less an autobiography than an explanation of his conduct during the revolt.

    Jesus did not send a messenger or appear before, Josephus.
    Josephus was a historian not a Christian he was a Jewish Priest involved in the Jewish war against Nero, got caught swapped sides became a Roman citizen and retired in Rome on a Roman Pension.

    Justme quote.
    How about this, was God helping the enemy to destroy a wicked generation and destroy the earthly symbol of a old covenant?


    My reply.
    The above is a very loose application regards prophecy!
    Jesus ALWAYS spoke through Prophets, and often in person or to and through the Disciples.
    Josephus was not a Prophet just a historian.

    The word “generation.”
    The word “generation” is used as being many generations.

    Matt 1:1. The book of the GENERATION OF JESUS CHRIST, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

    And so it goes. I cut it short a bit to save time but, the meaning is clear.

    As far as the suggestion of God “destroying a wicked generation,” goes.
    I could apply that inclination, with the use of other historians, and say the same, so here’s another example, using Justme’s own study method.

    Now please don’t complain, because what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Let’s use the logic Justme uses in verifying prophecy’s fulfilment by using historic events and then decide which ones to use.

    “How about this,” Hadrian who murdered over SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND Jews and forced them from Judea around 130AD after the Bar Cochba revolt broke out, after his visit to Palestine and his plan for rebuilding a Romanised Jerusalem.
    I could say, Hadrian was doing the work of God in destroying the “wicked generation” of Jews?
    Or are the preterists selective? What has this to do with the time of the end?

    Or “how about this” person, Adolf Hitler?
    He murdered SIX MILLION defenceless Jews.
    How about I chuck that in the melting pot of the historic preterists mix and apply that to biblical prophecies as being God’s wrath against a “wicked generation?”
    That knocks off the record sum, of poor Jews that were murdered by the Romans. In 70AD and around 130AD, let’s stick with the 1940-45 war the numbers take precedence as being the worst from the beginning till now.

    The prophecies, WILL BE FULFILLED and we won’t be guessing by taking bits from here and bits from there, out of our Bibles to make it all fit.

    Jesus HIMSELF with the mantle of ALL POWER will do it!
    RIGHT IN FRONT OF OUR EYES!
    There won’t be any haphazard guessing work involved or checking our Bibles. We won’t have to check anything because we won’t have the time, IT WILL HAPPEN SUDDENLY, with a GREAT NOISE.
    The Earth will reel and topple and shake.

    The wise will understand these things that will happen.

    The oceans will roar as the seasons are changed when the Father tilts the Earth 27 ½ degrees.
    Death and destruction until the Big EARTHQUAKE and RESURRECTION TO LIFE!!!
    If preterists do not want to accept that which is stated clearly in the Bible, then so be it.

    Justme quote.
    Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies....Josephus..

    This is not the Bible and I am really not interested in what Josephus had to say, he has no influence or part in Bible prophecies, and is not part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He makes assumptions by what others report to him, why should I pay heed to this nonsense.
     
  14. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Justme quote.
    From Josephus....
    for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
    Does this fit in with the Revelation story of the 200 thousand thousand horseman?


    My reply. NO IT DOES NOT FIT AT ALL with Rev 9: 1 to 21.
    Let me give you an example of just one small part that in itself disproves your application of this prophecy to 70AD.

    Rev 9:5. And to them it was given that they should NOT KILL THEM, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

    The Romans went , hell bent on killing even women and children. Also the Jews were intent on surviving, they did not wish to die as it says in Rev 9:6.

    Rev 9:6. And IN THOSE DAYS MEN SHALL SEEK DEATH, and shall NOT FIND IT; and SHALL DESIRE TO DIE, and DEATH SHALL FLEE FROM THEM.

    It is at the sixth trumpet being blown that “the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand, thousand” appear. The seventh trumpet is very close to the preceding sixth trump of God, which happens to be the last trumpet.
    The first woe is at trumpet five, the 2nd woe at trumpet 6 and the 3rd woe at trumpet seven.
    Serious Bible students, understand CLEARLY that these things occur during the seven trumpet and three woe period at the, “time of the end” the tribulation, the 3 ½ years within the “2300 evening and morning” period.

    The seventh trumpet being blown heralds in the resurrection to eternal life.
    1ST Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and THIS MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY.

    That is how the two witnesses stand at trump seven, at the call of His voice.

    Rev 11: 12. And they heard a GREAT VOICE FROM HEAVEN say unto them, COME UP hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13And the same hour was there a great EARTHQUAKE, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15And the SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The KINGDOM OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME the kingdoms of OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and HE SHALL REIGN FOREVER and EVER.


    In 70AD there was no resurrection, no kingdom come, no immortality, no earthquake.
    Yes it is a “mess.” Also the two witnesses weren’t there and What Did Jesus say about Elijah?
    Malachi 4:5. Behold, I WILL SEND you Elijah the prophet BEFOR THE COMING of the GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD: 6And he shall TURN the HEART of the FATHERS to the CHILDREN, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    The above did not happen IN 70AD, even Justme admits that the fathers ate their own children, that’s how bad it was. So the turning of their hearts to the children in the last verse is just not applicable.

    Preterists can’t work out the 1260, 1290, 1335 days. 0r the “2300 evening and morning,” or the 3 ½ years, “Time times dividing of time” along with the “42 months trampling,” a season and time, 15 months wait then battle. Or join Daniel Joel or Revelation together, and last but not least understand how to apply the empire metal TIME period STATUE to the clearly stated periods involved with regards the four beasts at the statue’s feet.
    Then Atkin claims that to try this is “trite.”


    Justme quote.
    Maybe just read that chapter of Josephus again and then it will become apparent that if these things happened in his lifetime. It sounds suspiciously like the rebellion against the Jews and Jerusalem and covers a lot of the things mentioned in Mark 13, Luke 21 and Matt 24.


    My reply.
    Josephus does not harmonise with the Bible.
    What things DID OCCUR in 70AD that confirms the complete fulfillment of Matt 24, Mark13 and Luke 21?
    The other question we must also ask to be absolutely fair is, what did NOT OCCUR in 70AD to confirm the non fulfillment of the above chapters?
    Partial fulfillment is not acceptable.

    Matt 24:2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, THERE SHALL NOT BE LEFT HERE ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, THAT SHALL NOT BE THROWN DOWN.

    See all these things?
    What things?
    The buildings
    The many stone built walls, that is ALL these things.
    The Temple being destroyed was not the prophecy in this, the STONES not ONE being LEFT UPON ANOTHER were to be its fulfillment.
    Were all the stones THROWN DOWN? NO.

    Are any stones left, one upon another on that Temple site?
    YES, there are the stones of the wailing wall that are still standing today.

    Should we ignore the wailing wall, as not having a part in the prophetic statement, “stone upon stone being left.”

    We could say that the stone wall was not part of the building structure, therefore was not a consideration regards the stone upon stone not being left upon another.
    We know that the Temple was destroyed. but Jesus did not say, see this Temple not one stone of this Temple will be left one upon another.


    3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and WHAT shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, and of THE END of the world?

    Did we see the Lord’s second coming in 70AD?
    NO, we did not.
    Is the end of the age at THE TIME OF His second coming? YES.
    Did we see the end of the age? NO because HE DID NOT COME to raise the dead at trumpet seven!
    Were the trumpets blown with all the accompanying plagues and were the people without the mark of the beast tormented 5 months by the locusts to be released by Abaddon out of the pit?
    No!
    Did they hide themselves under rocks from the face of HIM?
    NO, they were to busy trying to keep from have their throats slit by the Romans.

    4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Were many JEWS claiming to be THE CHRIST and deceiving many in 70AD in Jerusalem?
    NO, I don’t think so, the Christ wasn’t too popular around the Jewish nation at that time.

    6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye BE NOT TROUBLED: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    The Jews were about to be hammered by the Romans and so, to apply the application of the last verse within the situation of 70AD is ludicrous.

    Let me use my own words.
    Don’t be troubled about the rumours of wars?
    So, there the Jews were, about to be run through and the preterists expect us to believe that the above advice, “not to be troubled” was to be a comfort in the 70AD situation?
    Come off it!
    This is the problem with people that try to force read the Bible!.
    Do you think the Jews could have been bothered and cared to here of nations rising against nations during the Roman siege?
    No, the Jews had a more pressing problem on their hands at the time, right on their own doorstep.

    7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    Where were all the earthquakes?
    I don’t think there were many earthquakes and many nations fighting nations. What famines and pestilence in DIVERS PLACES. There was only one group of people that were starving and they weren’t in diverse places either, they were IN JERUSALEM.

    8All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations FOR MY NAMES SAKE.

    Hated by all the nations FOR MY NAMES SAKE?
    The Romans were dishing it out to the Jews at that time.
    Were they dishing it out because the Jews were preaching for the name Jesus?
     
  15. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

    How many were deceived by false prophets back then?
    What about false christs back then in 70AD?
    Man, if anyone turned up, back then in the name of Jesus they would have copped it from both Jew and Roman

    12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    How many Jews were saved?
    Without a resurrection and with no faith in Jesus?

    14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    Was the Gospel preached back then in 70AD to all the world?
    NO it was not.

    15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    This last verse which shows the preterists to be in error, is why preterists like Atkin, start calling it “trite” if anyone indicates an UNDERSTANDING of some of the time periods involved in specified prophetic events. Preterists can’t home in on the God given timing details, because the time periods do not concur with their interpretations.

    The events in Matt 24, Mark13, Luke 21, did not happen in 70AD and will not happen until a future time, and within the specified time allocations given by God to John and Daniel, therefore without these clear time spans in their proper consecution the prophecies will not be recognised as being fulfilled by the wise that will understand.
    The preterists so called 70AD fulfillment, exposes their ignorance of the time span periods of Daniel and Revelation.
    The time spans are not applied to specific prophetic events by preterists, therefore their claims lack credibility.

    GOD placed the periods involved within which each event is to occur for sound and good reasons.
    The Bible has given a measure of inclusiveness to the prophetic events within time.
    The time spans are a show and tell of what is the start, duration, completion periods of the prophecies to stop historic misapplications.

    This is what Jesus was referring to.
    Daniel 11:31. And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant SHALL HE CORRUPT BY FLATTERIES: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

    Did the Romans use “flattery” or threats?
    Were the Jews STRONG did they “do STRONG exploits?”


    Daniel 12: 11. And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    Was the abomination set up for exactly 1290 DAYS, if so when did the time period start and when did it finish?
    How could it be set up when the Temple was destroyed.

    Did the Jews get a BLESSING after 1335 DAYS?
    When did the 1335 start?
    When did it end?
    What did they receive? They received a murderous enemy that was hell bent on slaughtering them.

    Matt 24:16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING of THE WORLD to this time, no, NOR SHALL BE.

    When I read the last verse I see that the 70AD terror period, was not the GREATEST TRIBULATION from the beginning of the world or until its end that was to affect the Israelites, no not by a long shot. That is why Matt can’t be applied to 70AD.

    How should we read the word of God?
    Isaiah 28:9. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
    weaned from the milk, drawn from the breasts.
    10. For precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little

    Was it the worst time for the Jews? A “TRIBULATION of the world to this time, nor ever shall be.”

    NO, it was not. because we have witnessed the holocaust and it was much worse, so Matt was not fulfilled back then in 70AD.

    22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Did they see false christs did they see great signs and wonders to deceive the very elect?
    I don’t think so! Who were the elect?

    25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    Could the surrounded Jews go into the dessert to see the prophetic warnings of Matt?
    The “secret chambers” are a part of the Temple building. Did the Jews or Flavius Josephus speak of a false christ coming from the “secret chambers,” a lamb that speaks like a dragon?

    I don’t think so!


    27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


    Did they see the coming of the son of man, from the East to the West?
    No. I don’t think so!
    After the son of man coming did they see the things happen in the following verses.

    28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Was the sun and moon darkened and did the stars fall and was heaven shaken?
    NO.

    30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Did they see the Son of man in heaven? NO!
    Did they see HIM with great glory? NO!


    31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Were the elect gathered by the angels? NO!

    32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Did they see “ALL OF THESE THINGS?” NO!
    Are we still waiting? Yes
    Will we see all these signs and wonders, seeing as they have not yet occurred in the past?
    Yes, very soon I hope.

    34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


    The word “generation” is used as meaning many generations of men.
     
  16. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Bible example Earthly generations.
    Matt 1:1. The book of the GENERATION OF JESUS CHRIST, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;


    35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Did we see the passing away of Earth and the heavens?


    37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Did they see the Son of man coming in 70AD?

    38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    When the Jews were surrounded by the Romans were they drinking and marrying and living it up or were they starving?

    39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Did Jesus come to take any Jews away? NO!
    Wasn’t any one suddenly taken? NO!


    41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    If all this happened in 70AD why don’t we know of it?
    Because it did not occur!

    43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    We are still waiting and Watching!

    45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

    46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

    As the preterists look back. His people are told to look ahead and be ready for His great advent.

    God’s people will look forward, waiting for the promised, blessing after 1335 days, at the supper of the wedding of the Lamb.

    47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he LOOKETH NOT for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    The last verse is for the time of the end and none of Matt happened back in 70AD, that is for sure!


    Justme
    In other works Josephus tells of father killing children, child killing parent and mothers roasting infants to eat in this Jewish war. That fits biblically with:
    Mark 13
    "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.


    Lets see a bit of Bible and see what it’s intent is.
    Mark 13:12. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men FOR MY NAMES SAKE: BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE UNTO THE END THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED.

    How many were saved from hardship? None.
    How many were saved by being raised up? NONE.
    Who changed the hearts of the children in 70AD, and did they do that before eating them?
    They were hard line Zealots and were not dying nor forcing others to die for Christ.

    So what will happen in the future?

    Who is going to help change the hearts of the fathers and their children in Jerusalem in the future?

    Malachi 4:5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD: 6And he shall TURN the HEART OF THE FATHERS TO THE CHILDREN, and HEART OF THE CHILDREN to their FATHERS, lest I COME and smite the earth with a curse.

    Deuteronomy 18:18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require of him.

    YOU WROTE:
    PC quote
    Why can’t you think for yourself with your God given intelligence and SEE that the seventh trumpet is at “the time of the end.”

    Justme answers
    Yes, but at the time of what end, so I laid out a verse which shows you when the end was.

    Justme, you must open your eyes, the seventh trumpet in Rev 11 occurs at the FIRST RESURRECTION AT THE TIME OF THE END, that is not back in 70AD.
    The timing is within the 2300 evening and morning period when “ALL these WONDERS WILL BE FINISHED.”
    I know this is dragging on a bit but I must insert Daniel 12 here because it is so important and clear for those who simply wish to read what THE Bible says. That is why Jesus mentioned Daniel to the Disciples concerning the end of the age which HE associated with HIS second advent.
    The two go hand in hand, together, during the same time period of “2300 evening and morning.”


    If as you claim Revelation is for the past.
    How is it that the seventh trumpet is sounded, and the two witnesses are raised from the dead, which only happens at the first resurrection with woe three in Rev 11?


    Is Daniel referring to the first resurrection as we know is at the 7th trumpet? YES!

    Is he also referring to the second resurrection to damnation after the 1000 years? YES!

    3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

    Did the Jews turn many to righteousness in Jerusalem during the 70AD siege?
    Or is Daniel speaking of the “time of the end yet to come?”

    4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Was knowledge increased when the Bible was not yet finished or available to the world in 70AD?
    Or was Daniel referring to the Bible being sent to all the world at the “time of the end?
    Do we see the last verse starting being carried out now?

    5Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
     
  17. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    How long will this go on for?
    3 ½ years at the time of the end.

    7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    Time , times, half a time = 3 ½ years to END THESE THINGS!
    From the time of that 70AD siege, the trouble went on a lot longer than 3 ½ years for the Jewish peoples.

    8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    Did Daniel understand?
    No.
    Why not?
    Because the words were sealed, locked up until the “time of the end.”

    9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    For years, folk have been trying to understand Daniel’s vision. Running over the words here and there gradually learning more and more.
    Do we have all the answers? No, and we won’t have until the “time of the end,’ because God has said so.
    The preterists haven’t the answers of the visions of Daniel or Revelation, does that make them admit that they are not within “the time of the end?” No, because they do not wish to read the detail that proves them erroneous.
    If they want to start onto Daniel’s vision and explain it, then I don’t mind doing the same thing in detail in response

    10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    There are two groups. The folk that understand, and those that don’t.

    It is NOT a matter of what Prophecy Countdown thinks or believes.

    It is a matter of “what sayeth the Bible”
    There is no pride in this!
    The glory, honour, power belong to our Master, not us.

    11And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    By taking over the place of the daily, and setting up the abomination that makes it desolate is going to last 1290 days all up.

    Rev 11:2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty two months.

    Daniel 12:12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    Blessed he that waits 1335 days to the wedding supper where all God’s children will receive a blessing.

    Rev 19;9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    Daniel is told that he shall rest then “STAND AT THE END OF THE DAYS.”
    Did Daniel stand in 70 AD?

    If the end of the age was at 70AD.
    Did Josephus record seeing Daniel standing?
    Did he even mention Daniel?
    No, he did not because it was not the right time or event.

    13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


    The trumpet periods will be within a short period of time, they were not blown back 2000 years ago whilst the two witnesses were not present in Jerusalem.

    The two witnesses were not killed, then resurrected and the enemy/Romans were not struck with fear at their being raised after 3 ½ days.

    The seventh trumpet is the one that brings it all together, even the mystery of God for those waiting for HIS great return, with a great noise and great wonders in heaven, when the Earth shall topple and shake when the seas shall roar, but the wicked? They will not understand.
    1st Corinthians 15:52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at THE LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall sound, and the DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Rev 11:11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and GREAT FEAR FELL UPON THEM WHICH SAW THEM. 12And they heard a GREAT VOICE from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


    Rev 11:14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15And the SEVENTH TRUMPET SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    None of the above happened in 70AD.

    Justme quote.
    Hebrews 9
    26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
    The end of the ages.....the first coming was at the 'end of the ages....


    My reply, what is the intent of the Bible?
    Are men perfect?
    Are men hampered by the restricted time they have living?
    How many men including the Prophets and Disciples, thought that Jesus was going to set up His kingdom soon or within their lifetimes?
    Generation after generation have waited, as we do today, for HIS imminent return yes?
    Has God, in HIS mercy told His followers that they would be dead thousands of years before His return?
    There are some things we don’t tell our children, such as how to play with matches, it is for their good and if you check with your Bibles you will se that God in HIS wisdom, did not tell His Disciples how long it would be before it all come to fulfilment.

    Justme quote
    The end of the age was when Christ sacrificed Himself. When was that?
    Hebrews 9
    26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
    So, hey, I'm not telling you that the end of the age was 2000 years ago, Hebrews 9:26 is telling you that. It is written right there.


    My reply
    AUTHOR:
    Unknown
    The Book of Hebrews is the only truly anonymous book in the New Testament canon. Clement of Alexandria (c. A.D. 150–215) referred to Paul as the author but argued that Luke translated the book into Greek. Origen (c. A.D. 185–253) concluded that the thoughts were those of Paul but that the phraseology and composition were those of someone who was recalling the apostle’s teachings (e.g., Clement of Rome or Luke). Many others are suggested as the possible author: Barnabas (by Tertullian), Apollos (by Luther), Philip the evangelist (by William Ramsay), Priscilla and Aquila (by Adolf Harnack). Origen’s famous remark still stands: “Who the author of the epistle is, God truly knows.”
    DATE:
    c.A.D. 65
    Hebrews is used by Clement of Rome in his Epistle to the Corinthians, which means that the latest possible date is A.D. 96. Some think that Hebrews indicates that the Jewish sacrificial system is still functioning (7:8; 8:4; 10:1, 2, 8, 11); if so, no date later than the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70) would be possible. Others note that the tabernacle, not the temple, is mentioned, and thus, they conclude that there is no indication of date. The recipients of the epistle have been believers for a considerable period of time (5:12; 10:32–34). They appear to be second-generation Christians (2:13, 14). The most likely date, in view of the evidence, would be prior to the destruction of the temple, hence c. A.D. 65.

    Hebrews 9:26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. the holy place every year with blood of others.

    Did the above writer, who ever he or she was along with the Disciples believe that Christ was to set up His kingdom within their lifetimes?

    Every generation has hoped for the blessed salvation within own time, as we do today so the writer would express himself in that way with that preconceived idea and obviously so would Paul as believing that the “end of the world” was at their time.

    Was there anything wrong in that? No.
     
  18. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Were they right about the “end of the world”?

    No because we are still here waiting for the prophecies to be fully completed some 2000 years later.
    Yes some 2000 years later indicates clearly that it was not the intent of the prophecy being spoken but of the yearning for the second coming to come about in their time it was their wish for it to be that way.

    Is this a salvation issue? No it is not.

    They were right about the event but wrong about the time because the prophecies were not fulfilled in their time.

    Why do you think that Daniel’s book was sealed up until “the time of the end?
    It was God in His wisdom that did not let even Daniel know, that it was not to be for a long, long time into the future.

    Another example using Hebrews is how we can read it as a hard and fast rule or use our common sense to get to the intent.
    Hebrews 9:27.And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Is the above a hard and fast rule?

    The above verse says it is appointed for man to die once and we have many that state on that bases that Moses can not be one of the two witnesses.
    How then do they explain Lazarus. You see it is how we read the Gospel that is the problem, not what it says.
    Of course it was “appointed unto men once to die,” but that is not a hard and fast rule there are exceptions.
    There is no contradiction, between being appointed that man die once and for God to act upon that situation, after all HE is the resurrection unto life.

    Maranatha.

    P C,
     
  19. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Some of the Abominations Daniel spoke of happened.

    IE: Daniel 9: and 11:

    Daniel 8: and Daniel 12: MATT 24: are the same abomination and have not yet happened.

    Jesus comes twice there is abominations before both advents.

    Just The Facts
     
  20. CK Blue

    CK Blue New Member

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    The dome of the rock is an evil, blasphemous thing.
    I am amazed by Gods patience.

    Do you know what is carved in every wall, on each side of the dome of the rock?
    Jesus is not the son of God.

    Frightening, isn't it?

    The abomination of desolation (in my belief) is the ceasing of the worship of Christ in this world.

    Because we are told, "when ye shall SEE Jerusalem compassed with armies >>know that the DESOLATION is nigh".

    I had always thought this to be physical armies, tanks, etc. but I was wrong.

    We are told that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES.

    Is this Jerusalem an ancient city or something more?

    Remember, He spoke to us in parables.

    Should we be looking outward for signs?
    Behold the kingdom of heaven is within you.

    The TEMPLE of God, is our own special place with him. It was made at our creation.

    And this temple shall be violated and corrupted when satan 'SITS IN THE TEMPLE SHOWING HIMSELF TO BE GOD".

    How else could he do that, but through creating a human life through science.

    Imagine; cloning children, creating humans by altered DNA. Impossible? Nope. It is already being tackled in laboratories throughout the world.

    What a more convincing way of disproving the bible, and God, in such a manner.

    It is coming.
     
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