Abomination of Desolation - A Future Idol in Jerusalem

[Davy]

Many Preterists and Historicists like to say the Roman general Titus and his army in 70 A.D. fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" prophecy our Lord Jesus gave us in His Olivet Discourse. To them this event Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel has already been fulfilled. But has it really?

In the Mark 13 and Matthew 24 version about the "abomination of desolation", it is mentioned standing in the holy place, or standing where it ought not, and then those in Judea are told to flee. The Luke 21 version reads a bit differently because it's giving us more info, specifically about the armies of the Gentiles treading Jerusalem and then their destruction with God's days of vengeance.

Luke 21:20-21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
KJV

That "desolation" is about the coming destruction in that area on the day of Jesus' coming per Zechariah 14. The armies of the Gentiles will have surrounded Jerusalem just prior to that.

In the next verses we are told about a time of distress and Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles...

Luke 21:23-24
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled
KJV


That idea of the time of the Gentiles, and their treading Jerusalem (i.e., their armies), is also given as a specific period for the end of this world in our Lord's Revelation:

Rev 11:1-2
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

That "forty and two months" when the Gentiles will tread under foot the holy city (Jerusalem) is what our Lord Jesus was referring to in Luke 21:20-24. That 42 months is equal to the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (Dan.9:27). The "abomination of desolation" is setup in a new temple in Jerusalem with the armies of the Gentiles having taken the city and surrounding it for 42 months; then our Lord Jesus' second coming will happen.

That 42 months (or 1260 days) is also the time the "dragon" is given power over the saints for the end:

Rev 13:4-5
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
KJV

Summary:
The times of the Gentiles ends with the desolation of their armies that will have surrounded Jerusalem in the last days for 42 months just prior to Christ's second coming. Thus the "abomination of desolation" event Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel is hard-linked to being setup 42 months prior to the end of this world when Jesus returns. Because of this prophecy connection Jesus gave us in His Revelation, it is impossible for the "abomination of desolation" event to have been fulfilled at any time in the past.

 

[dysert]

I can't argue with that .

 

[Another Lazarus]

AOD is not about the physical destruction of The Temple by the Roman soldiers.

AOD is the antichrist entering the Temple and declare himself to the WORLD as God and whosoever refuse to worship his image/statue shall be killed.

2 Thes 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Rev 13:15 ....and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[dysert]

AOD is the antichrist entering the Temple and declare himself to the WORLD as God and whosoever refuse to worship his image/statue shall be killed.

which happens 42 months before the Second Coming.

 

[Another Lazarus]

which happens 42 months before the Second Coming.

Yes, so at the first half of 42 months the antichrist will appear as a fake Peace Maker of the world and accepted as the Messiah by Judaism in Israel.
though peace shall then be removed with the 2nd seal opening of the red horse.

 

[BABerean2]

Summary:
The times of the Gentiles ends with the desolation of their armies that will have surrounded Jerusalem in the last days for 42 months just prior to Christ's second coming. Thus the "abomination of desolation" event Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel is hard-linked to being setup 42 months prior to the end of this world when Jesus returns. Because of this prophecy connection Jesus gave us in His Revelation, it is impossible for the "abomination of desolation" event to have been fulfilled at any time in the past.

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in both Gospels.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(See John 10:22 for the understanding.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of this verse is about the events of 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a reference to "the times of the Gentiles". In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh


Below we find the word "compass" is used again in describing Jerusalem being surrounded by the Roman army during 70 AD. We also find a reference to the destruction of the city and temple at the end of the passage. Not one stone would be left stacked one upon another. During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left of Jerusalem was that built by the Romans. That would be Roman Fort Antonia. Its remains are now known as "the temple mount".

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


The first part of Luke 21:24 is a historical event.

Matthew's Gospel was directed to more of a Jewish audience who celebrated Hanukkah each year and knew well the events of 167 BC. They knew that Daniel had predicted the abomination of desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes and his attack upon the city and his stopping the sacrifices.
John 10:22 refers to Hanukkah, and therefore provides the "understand" found in the reference to Matthew 24:15.

Luke's Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience who may not have understood the events of 167 BC, so Luke spelled it out for them.

Those who claims that Matthew 24:15 or Luke 21:20 is a future event needs a good book on Jewish history.
That book can be found in the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus.
I have never seen anyone label Josephus as a "preterist".

.......................................................



From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Response posted below.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Abomination of Desolation is NOT:

1.) The destruction of a physical temple in 70AD by Titus where many Christians are privately interpreting based on the secular ramblings of Josephus.

2.) The rebuilt third Jewish temple in the modern city of Jerusalem where the antichrist will establish his statue upon Temple Mount where many Christian televangelists are privately interpreting based on the 1948AD founding of a modern nation of Israel and her capture of the physical city of Jerusalem in 1967AD.

Allow me (if I may) to demonstrate the stark difference between what is interpretation, and what is a Biblical Fact (Precept):


INTERPRETATION:

I Believe that while the year AD 70 is not actually mentioned in the Bible anywhere, from extra-biblical proofs like Archaeology, secular history, old manuscripts, etc., we suppose that it is the year of the fulfillment of certain scriptures. Because we personally interpret those scriptures (not actually mentioning AD 70) to be referring to this happening in history, based upon what these secular writers have testified to.

BIBLICAL FACT:

John 2:19

• Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Hebrews 9:9-10

• Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
• Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
• But Christ being come as high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Can you tell the difference? One is man's personal belief of an abomination taking place in the particular year of 70AD, and his interpretation of a temple destroyed then. And the other is the Biblical fact of Scripture declaring Christ, the spiritual temple, being destroyed and raised up again in three days. One, God said, and the other man thinks God could have meant when he spoke of the destruction and rebuilding of a Temple:

Hebrews 9:8-9

• "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
• Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;"

Someone understands that the physical Temples in the old testament were "figures" or "types" looking forward to Christ. But evidently, it is not a lot of Christians today, leaning unto the babblings of the non-Christian Josephus as a prophet.

Do you think it is out of line to say the First Temple had to fall in order for the more perfect one (Christ) to be made manifest (revealed)? I hope not, for GOD said it, not I. I merely bear testimony of what God said. ..On the other hand (by STARK contrast), Josephus (man) has people believing that the Temple prophesied in scripture to fall, fell in AD 70. And who is Josephus that he should be prophet and interpreter of God's word? Not even a Christian! Jesus (The Word of God) we know, Paul (the Divinely Inspired writer) we know, but who is this man Josephus?

....He that hath ears to hear, let him Hear!

The way I see it, they are drawing "their" theology from "their" interpretations. On the other hand, I draw my theology from repeating (witnessing/testifying) what God said about the literal Temples or Tabernacles being figures, shadows prefiguring the true. And how, with the coming of the true, the shadow is then fulfilled and the "figure" passed away. That's not interpretation, that's the testimony of Christ. There is a difference.

The real problem I see today when so many people having difficulty understanding what temple Lord Jesus was actually talking about. For example, Jesus did NOT speak about the physical temple then standing. After all, He has just thrown the buyers and sellers out of the Temple, and the Jews were asking how Jesus has the authority to do this. But Jesus wasn't! When He said:

John 2:19

• "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

The context "seemed," to the Jews, as if He must be talking about the Physical Holy Temple He has physically thrown the Buyers and sellers out of. It was a hard saying for them to understand because they were yet carnal or "Spiritually Blind." And in that state they were not inclined towards the Spiritual truths that Christ spoke in metaphors, allegories, and parables. So when Christ speaks in metaphors using trees as figures, they see only physical trees. When Christ speaks of eating His flesh, they see only cannibalism. See? So, when Christ speaks about the Temple being destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days, they see only earthly stones and how long it took for those stones to be built up up into a house. Because they did not have the eyes to see, or the ears to hear. They were Spiritually blind. As indeed all men are before they have their eyes opened to the "spiritual" truths hidden in the physical objects like Temples and Feasts. Spiritual revelation such as Christ illustrated in His healing the eyes of the blind man of Bethsaida.

Mark 8:22-25

• "And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
• And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
• And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
• After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly."

That's how we are before we are "fully" touched of God to see and understand the tree we see in scripture "symbolizes" a man. After we are fully healed, we see that the tree was actually a man. This is "HOW" we can understand trees in the book of Revelation as "men." Likewise, when we see the stones, we will understand as actually members of the Holy Temple! Or we see the wicked as grass. Or we see Bread as the Word. It's all part of growing in the "Spirit" to have wisdom and understanding to comprehend the Revelation of God or what Jesus actually talked about.

Therefore, when Christ said:

Mat 24:15

• When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

What holy place did Christ actually talked about here? My point being, Christ spoke in metaphors, He "spiritualized," he allegoricalized. ...you know, all the ways so many Christians today "hate." And if the people wouldn't receive what He said, it was not Christ's fault. It is because of their own hardness of heart. Christ didn't correct those standing there, nor did He come back and say, "Hey, I was speaking of the Temple of my Body." No, the Holy Spirit spoke to them and that truth was revealed unto the Disciples (and to us, the chosen Elect) after He had risen from the dead. Only then did they understand that He spoke of the Temple of His body.

And the body of the temple is CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL, started with the old testament Jews and then New Testament Gentile church! So when Christ said to the JEWS, HIs people, fulfilling Daniel 9:24, to destroy this temple and in three days, Christ shall rebuilt it. It was not the physical temple Christ talked about but the fall of old testament congregation and the birth of new testament congregation where Christ is now a chief cornerstone.

So when we read in Matthew 24 where it wrote:

Mat 24:1-2
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

When Christ said, "see ye not all these things," or "Seest thou these great buildings?" (Mark 13:2), all that these people could "see" was a physical temple, a lot of earthly buildings, and the physical stones thereof. It is because their heart tuned in to carnal or things of the flesh, earthly things. But Christ was actually talking about a holy city, Jerusalem, consisting of PEOPLE, not literal stones, which His body represents! The Spiritual is from above, the earthly is this worldly thinking. That is why we need to have wisdom and understanding. If in the earthly kingdom, building, etc., we will seek earthly kingdoms and buildings. But if a heavenly or spiritual kingdom and houses whose maker is God, and that can NEVER be removed, then we will seek spiritually.

Colossians 3:1-2

• "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
• Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."

Completely ignored by most people. When we set our affection and our mind upon worldly things like buildings, Temples, nations, rules and kingdoms, we are not manifesting that we are a new creation risen in Christ. Our thoughts should be occupied by things where Christ now dwells, our thoughts on a spiritual Jerusalem our final home. In other words, since we have risen with Christ, made alive, a new creation, the great object we should look forward to should be the heavenly world, not a plot of earth or physical city of Jersualem in the middle east.

Anyway, the first part of Olivet Discourse about the stones of the temple buildings not standing upon other represents the fall of old testament congregation. But the prophecy about the signs of Christ's return, in the end times, is about the fall of New Testament congregation, the church, which Judaea signifies! When the believers see the abomination of desolation standing in the church, they are told to flee from the midst of Judaea. Try and stay focused and keep things accurate:

1. The Temple of Matthew 24 is a prophecy of the New Testament congregation near the end of the world/age that would have abomination stand it in.

2. The Old Testament Temple (that the literal temple symbolized) was the congregation that fell at the cross. Spiritually! And in three days, it was rebuilt in Christ, with Him being the corner stone of that Temple re-building! That's why the veil of the physical Holy Temple was rent/torn from "Top to bottom" the moment Christ died. It signified the fall of the Old Testament Temple, which would be rebuilt in Christ's resurrection.

There is nothing in Scripture talked about a worldly/carnal construction efforts of the physical temple, but rather a regeneration and recreation in Christ Jesus. Israel is being RESTORED by the spreading of the Gospel reconciliation to the world. This is the church, the new testament body of Christ! After their testimony for the purpose of building the church is FINISHED (Revelation 11:7), when God has finished SEALING all Israel (Revelation 7:1-4), the beast will come out of bottomless pit, which is a BODY OF SATAN that make up of people with spirit of antichrist, the false prophets, and christs, who will receive power from Satan to be able to overcome and silence the truthful testimony of Elects and place Christ with their own false gospel/doctrine. This is the abomination of desolation that Christ warned about in Olivet Discourse! When we "see" the proliferation of false prophets and christs popping up in churches all over the world who are twisting Gospel into love and tolerance of homosexuality, entertainment, prosperity gospel, feel good gospel, free will gospel, etc. We need to depart from Judaea which is a metaphor for the congregation to avoid being judged by God that is taking place right now in His House, the New Testament Congregation of Israel who has BECOME "Babylon the Great!" She is a mystery to those who do not have "wisdom" or "understanding."

Selah!

 

[Truth7t7]

Many Preterists and Historicists like to say the Roman general Titus and his army in 70 A.D. fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" prophecy our Lord Jesus gave us in His Olivet Discourse. To them this event Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel has already been fulfilled. But has it really?

In the Mark 13 and Matthew 24 version about the "abomination of desolation", it is mentioned standing in the holy place, or standing where it ought not, and then those in Judea are told to flee. The Luke 21 version reads a bit differently because it's giving us more info, specifically about the armies of the Gentiles treading Jerusalem and then their destruction with God's days of vengeance.

Luke 21:20-21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
KJV

That "desolation" is about the coming destruction in that area on the day of Jesus' coming per Zechariah 14. The armies of the Gentiles will have surrounded Jerusalem just prior to that.

In the next verses we are told about a time of distress and Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles...

Luke 21:23-24
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled
KJV


That idea of the time of the Gentiles, and their treading Jerusalem (i.e., their armies), is also given as a specific period for the end of this world in our Lord's Revelation:

Rev 11:1-2
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

That "forty and two months" when the Gentiles will tread under foot the holy city (Jerusalem) is what our Lord Jesus was referring to in Luke 21:20-24. That 42 months is equal to the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one of week" (Dan.9:27). The "abomination of desolation" is setup in a new temple in Jerusalem with the armies of the Gentiles having taken the city and surrounding it for 42 months; then our Lord Jesus' second coming will happen.

That 42 months (or 1260 days) is also the time the "dragon" is given power over the saints for the end:

Rev 13:4-5
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
KJV

Summary:
The times of the Gentiles ends with the desolation of their armies that will have surrounded Jerusalem in the last days for 42 months just prior to Christ's second coming. Thus the "abomination of desolation" event Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel is hard-linked to being setup 42 months prior to the end of this world when Jesus returns. Because of this prophecy connection Jesus gave us in His Revelation, it is impossible for the "abomination of desolation" event to have been fulfilled at any time in the past.

Correct, Revelation 11:2 was not fulfilled in the 1st century as preterist teach.

The book of Revelation was written in 96AD, towards the end of Roman Emperor Domitians reign, as early church father Iranaeus quotes the writing of the Apocalypse.

Domitians Reign 81-96AD

Iranaeus Of Lyon 130-202AD
Against Heresies, Book V, Paragraph XXX

"For That Was Seen No Very Long Time Since, But Amost In Our Day, Towards The End Of Domitians Reign"

As is clearly seen, preterist 70AD fulfillment of Revelation 11:2 is a teaching in error.

 

[jgr]

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...


“Holy place“ in Matthew 24:15 is clarified in Luke 21:20 as referring to Jerusalem, the holy city.

The abomination was the presence in that holy city of the invading pagan Roman armies, who defiled and destroyed it.

The desolation was the result of that destruction.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...


“Holy place“ in Matthew 24:15 is clarified in Luke 21:20 as referring to Jerusalem, the holy city.

The abomination was the presence in that holy city of the invading pagan Roman armies, who defiled and destroyed it.

The desolation was the result of that destruction.

The great tribulation Matthew 24:21 is future, as this time of trouble will be the worst in history "No Nor Ever Shall Be"

World War II dwarfs the preterist claim of the 70 AD Roman Destruction Of Jerusalem.

70 million died in World War II, 6 million being Jews.

 

[jgr]

The great tribulation Matthew 24:21 is future, as this time of trouble will be the worst in history "No Nor Ever Shall Be"

World War II dwarfs the preterist claim of the 70 AD Roman Destruction Of Jerusalem.

70 million died in World War II, 6 million being Jews.

If you read Josephus, you will understand that the suffering experienced by the Jews has never been repeated, "nor ever shall be"; for not only did it bring unprecedented physical suffering, but that suffering was coupled with overwhelming spiritual, mental, and emotional anguish at the emerging realization that there would be no miraculous intervention and deliverance by God of those who still presumed to be His people, but who had rejected Him, and He in turn them.

Also unparalleled was the factional infighting among the Jews themselves, accounting for an unprecedented extent of the ultimate carnage.

Josephus' succinct and sober statement is eminently germane: "I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly; that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world."

"Nor ever shall be."

 

[Truth7t7]

If you read Josephus, you will understand that the suffering experienced by the Jews has never been repeated, "nor ever shall be"; for not only did it bring unprecedented physical suffering, but that suffering was coupled with overwhelming spiritual, mental, and emotional anguish at the emerging realization that there would be no miraculous intervention and deliverance by God of those who still presumed to be His people, but who had rejected Him, and He in turn them.

Also unparalleled was the factional infighting among the Jews themselves, accounting for an unprecedented extent of the ultimate carnage.

Josephus' succinct and sober statement is eminently germane: "I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly; that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world."

"Nor ever shall be."

The Holocaust has nothing comparable in history, none!

Josephus lived to write, as the Roman Scribe.

Just watch the documentaries, I have spoke with first hand jews that survived, nothing comparable.

 

[Douggg]

Matthew's Gospel was directed to more of a Jewish audience who celebrated Hanukkah each year and knew well the events of 167 BC. They knew that Daniel had predicted the abomination of desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes and his attack upon the city and his stopping the sacrifices.

In Daniel 11:31. But not the end times abomination in Daniel 12:11-12. I am not saying that it is not possible that some living at the time of 70ad thought that they were living in the end times, to do what you are doing associating was written down in Luke 21 and Matthew 24 the instructions to flee out of Jerusalem - as to thinking Matthew 24:15 and forward applied in their day.

But with 20/20 hindsight we know for certain that was a misinterpretation - and that the end times are when knowledge and travel greatly increased - are indicative of our times. And we have collaborating information in Ezekiel 38 of the Jews coming out of the nations that the prophecy of the invasion to Israel can now be fulfilled in this generation.

 

[Douggg]

And the body of the temple is CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL, started with the old testament Jews and then New Testament Gentile church! So when Christ said to the JEWS, HIs people, fulfilling Daniel 9:24, to destroy this temple and in three days, Christ shall rebuilt it. It was not the physical temple Christ talked about but the fall of old testament congregation and the birth of new testament congregation where Christ is now a chief cornerstone.

Jesus referenced Daniel regarding the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place. Daniel 12:11-12 is a literal; something setup to be worshiped. And a specific number of days given regarding the abomination of desolation of 1290 days and 1335 days.

 

[BABerean2]

but who is this man Josephus?

Good question.

Josephus was a leader of the Jewish army that fought in the war against the Romans during the time frame of 66-70 AD. He was captured by the Romans and later carried off back to Rome where he wrote one of the most complete histories of the Jewish people, outside of the Bible.

You are correct in saying that his writings are not inspired scripture.
They are a historical record confirmed by many other sources, such as those from Rome.


Is it a historical fact that the Jewish temple destroyed in 70 AD, as described by Josephus?

Did Jesus say the physical Jewish temple would be destroyed in Matthew 23:38, and Matthew 24:1-2, and Luke 19:41-44?

There are many of us here who agree with you 100% that Christ and those who belong to Him are now the New Covenant temple.
This is also described in 1 Peter 2:4-10. We are living stones in this temple where Christ is the "chief cornerstone". It is just as real as any temple ever made of stones.
He has built us a new house out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails at Calvary.

Paul describes two different Jerusalems in Galatians 4:24-26.
Our destination is New Jerusalem also described in Hebrews 11:15-16, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and the Book of Revelation.

.

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...


“Holy place“ in Matthew 24:15 is clarified in Luke 21:20 as referring to Jerusalem, the holy city.

The abomination was the presence in that holy city of the invading pagan Roman armies, who defiled and destroyed it.

The desolation was the result of that destruction.

Per the OT an abomination is especially about an idol:

Ezek 8:3
3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
KJV

The holy place Jesus was pointing to was the temple.

Acts 21:28
28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
KJV

Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
KJV

Heb 9:25
25 Nor yet that he should offer Himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
KJV

Thus the "abomination of desolation" is definitely not... about the idea of literal destruction, but spiritual desolation of the temple in Jerusalem. And that is exactly what Antiochus did with the setting up of an idol on an altar inside the 2nd temple to Zeus worship.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Jesus referenced Daniel regarding the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place. Daniel 12:11-12 is a literal; something setup to be worshiped. And a specific number of days given regarding the abomination of desolation of 1290 days and 1335 days.

No, not if you got Holy Place, SPOKE OF DANIEL THE PROPHET, right. It requires understanding, wisdom to know what Christ talked about SPIRITUALLY. It is not something you can pick up a history book and claim that the holy was was a physical Jewish temple. Daniel wrote about it in chapter 9 - the 70th week.

Daniel prophesied that, the Covenant week is confirmed, strengthened, started by Christ's death alone (verse 27). So the final week started at the cross and it is about New Testament or New Covenant congregation. It is only by His death that the last week (of the 70) is instituted or given foundation.

Hebrews 9:16-17

• "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
• For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

Thus there was no New Covenant/Testament week while Christ was alive, as it only came into effect AFTER Christ died. Remember, Christ prophesied to the Jews that they would come against him and destroy him which marked the fall of the OLD Testament Congregation as the kingdom representative was taken from them and gave to the New Testament congregation which Christ rebuilt in three days. See?

Daniel 9:26 was about the fall of old testament congregation when Messiah the Prince was cut off. Daniel 9:27 is about the confirmation of a new covenant with New Testament congregation so the abomination of desolation in said verse has to do with New Testament congregation, not litral physical Jewish temple at all! Therefore Christ's death and resurrection brought forth this New Covenant/Testament week era, which continues until the consummation!

Daniel 9:27

• "And he shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The consummation did not end in 70AD so the Jewish temple, which was actually NOT Holy at that time, was not the abomination of Desolation that Christ talked about! Christ confirmed the Covenant by His death. And that word that is translated confirmed in Daniel is actually "strengthened." Exactly as Hebrews 9 told us that the New Covenant was not made strong until after the death of the Covenantor first! That is when the Covenant week was put into effect.

Now you may be wondered, if Christ did confirm a covenant, then how did He caused the sacrifice and obligation to cease? That is a good questions. Sadly, many people go and fro building a doctrines where they view the sacrifice and offering to do something with a physical Jewish temple, but that is not true. It did not end at the Cross. On the contrary, that is where it had its Genesis.

Ephesians 5:2

• "And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour."

The true offering and sacrifice is not Israel's shedding of animal blood, it is the efficacy of Christ. When Christ gave up Himself, that is where sacrifice and offering were MADE ALIVE, not when it ceased. This is where the shadows (old testament ceremonial sacrifices & offerings) that were looking forward to this true sacrifice and offering, became the reality! Far from ceasing, God's word says we (The New Covenant Church) are the Priests offering up spiritual sacrifices. We are living stones built up in a spiritual temple. We are the Israel of God for whom the deliverer came. Like Israel, you are waiting (in vain) for the literal fulfillment of all these things. But scripture interprets scripture, not theologians. The only time sacrifice and offering ceases is when all Israel has already been sealed and there is no more chance for salvation. That is when sacrifice ceases. In scripture, the end of sacrifice and offering means the end of salvation. Selah! As illustrated in verses such as:

Hebrews 10:26

• "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

Meaning, the sacrifice had clearly (in God's definition) not ceased at the cross. There remains no more chance of salvation means sacrifice and offering have ceased. That is to say, in God's definition of sacrifice and offering. So it didn't cease at the cross, else God would not still be talking about priests and sacrifice, since He is not the author of confusion. Indeed, we, the Church, continued to offer up sacrifices, but as God, not Israel, defined them.

1st Peter 2:4-5

• "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
• Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

See? So according to God, the Priests of Israel have not ceased to offer up a sacrifice. Not the shadows or tokens as Israel did, but the kind that is acceptable to God. Even as interpretations belong to God, so definitions of sacrifice and offerings belong to God. Not Jospehus or Jack Van Impe!

The entire final week, the New Covenant period is a symbolic length of time! The time that the New Testament congregation went forth to the world, bringing Gospel, lasted 1,260 symbolic days which signifies the whole New Testament Period AS LONG AS sacrifices continued.... until all Elect has been sealed! This is what the period of Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 is all about. The Two Witnesses represents God's Elect, having received power by the Holy Spirit, to bring Gospel to the world for 1,260 symbolic days. This also applies to a woman of Revelation 12 where you will read that she has fled to the wilderness (signifies world) prepared by God where she will fed with Gospel for the SAME 1,260 days!

The 1,260 days signifies the whole church from Pentecost (when Two Witnesses received power with their testimony to the time they are killed by the beast. See? As long as Two Witnesses testifies, the sacrifice and obligation needed for salvation continued...until they are finished and the beast coming out to kill them. Their 1,260 symbolic days of testimony is finished IN GOD's EYES, is because all Israel has been sealed. Sorry, you have to study hard and have all the parts together, and they fit perfectly, you will know you have the truth. Like a giant picture puzzle with 10,000 pieces. when they all fit perfectly, ONLY THEN do you know you have the correct picture, which is the one the author painted.

Then you have 30 days between 1,260th day and 1,290th day. This is same picture of Two Witnesses lying died for 3-1/2 days which means the truthful testimony has been silenced and the enemies rejoiced over them, exchanging false doctrines and gospels as they pleased because of the torments (by preaching the Truth) by Two Witnesses. This is a period of apostasy and abominations taking place in the New Testament to the point of desolation which takes place on 1,290th day. This is the abomination of desolation that Christ warned us that when we "SEE" abomination of desolation, spoke of Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (church), those with the UNDERSTANDING, will know that they need to flee from the church that is under the judgment of God.

The 1335 day is the consummation when Christ returns... after the church age (1260), and after the desolation (1290). Symbolic of the literal time only known by God. We do not know exactly when these times took place, but He will allow us to know by seeing the SIGNS and only then we will know we are very close to Christ's return. And the signs in the sun, moon, and stars have everything to do with deceptions and desolations taking place in the church all over the world. Haven't you noticed or are you too busy looking for Jewish Temple 70AD or Third Temple, someone as the antichrist, the war with Israel in the Middle East, or looking for physical mark to be inserted under your skin? Well, talking about deception in the church! Many Many Christians will not REALIZE that they are being judged by God for their unfaithfulness in the church running by false prophets and Christs as Christ warned! This is abomiantion of desolation within the NEW Testament congregation, the holy place on this side of the Cross, the home of Two Witnesses! Read the context and receive the understanding from the Holy Spirit, not the book of Josephus or Hal Lindsey!

Mat 24:15-26
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Do you really understand what Christ talked about here? Based on the posts I saw here, doubtfully!

 

[jgr]

The Holocaust has nothing comparable in history, none!

Josephus lived to write, as the Roman Scribe.

Just watch the documentaries, I have spoke with first hand jews that survived, nothing comparable.

Since no one has experienced both, comparison is impossible. But the suffering and anguish which were unique to AD 70 have never been surpassed.

Was anyone cannibalizing their children during the Holocaust?

 

[Douggg]

No, not if you got Holy Place, SPOKE OF DANIEL THE PROPHET, right. It requires understanding, wisdom to know what Christ talked about SPIRITUALLY. It is not something you can pick up a history book and claim that the holy was was a physical Jewish temple. Daniel wrote about it in chapter 9 - the 70th week.

Everyone here can say it takes wisdom to correctly understand the Bible.

Daniel 9:26 was about the fall of old testament congregation when Messiah the Prince was cut off. Daniel 9:27 is about the confirmation of a new covenant with New Testament congregation so the abomination of desolation in said verse has to do with New Testament congregation, not litral physical Jewish temple at all! Therefore Christ's death and resurrection brought forth this New Covenant/Testament week era, which continues until the consummation!

There is the desolation of the temple in Daniel 8:13 which that vision is stated in the text to be end times. By the little horn person. Who is not Jesus.

None of the Apostles referenced Daniel 9:26 the confirming of the covenant to be a reference to the "new" covenant in Christ. Which for your view to be right, given the magnitude of Daniel 9:26b-27 they would have surely made a point of it. But they did not.

In fact, there is no apostle anywhere in the New Testament giving a start to finish explanation to the end times, because it was sealed from understanding in their day - until the end times, which we are only beginning to understand all the passages.

Symbolic of the literal time only known by God.

No, they are literal days. And can be fitted into the 7 years timeline.

In Revelation 11:2, it is 42 months. In Revelation 11:3, it is 1260 days. If those two are equivalents - then why in one verse 42 months and the very next verse 1260 days? The reason is they are not exact equivalents.

All of the timeframes expressed are literal - none are symbolic.

In the first half of the 7 years
the 1260 days, Revelation 11:3, 12:6

In the second half of the 7 years
the 3 1/2 days, Revelation 11
the 42 months, Revelation 11:2, 13:5
the time, times, half times, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14

1260 days is the testimony time of the two witnesses, on day 1260 they are killed, on day 1263.5 they ascend to heaven, leaving 1256.5 days in the seven years.

The bible calls the 1256.5 days as 42 months in Revelation 13:5. The beast rules unimpeded by the two witnesses during that time - because they are gone from the earth.

Once the two witness ascend and the seventh trumpet sounds, then there is the war in heaven (some unspecified amount of earth time passes) Satan cast down, leaving the time, times, half times left in the 7 years - a little less than the 42 months (the 42 months itself being 1256.5 days)
_________________________________________________________________________________

2300 days before Jesus returns - the temple sacrifices will begin again. On day 220 into the 7 years.

Near the middle of the 7 years, the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation, 2thessalonians2:4, Daniel 8:13, the act. Shortly followed by...

Near the middle of the 7 years, the abomination of desolation the image will be setup on day 1185 (1335 days before Jesus returns), and the Jews will start fleeing to the mountains, as the two witnesses battle with the beast.

Counting forward from day 1185, the 1290 days, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, in Revelation 6 sixth seal, Matthew 24:30, on day 2475 of the seven years.

During the following 45 days from day 2475, the kings of the earth assemble their armies and march down to Jerusalem and take the Jews there as hostages (captivity) Zechariah 14.

Jesus returns on day 2520, rescues the Jews in Jerusalem, and destroys the armies.
_________________________________________________________________________________

The number one mistake people make in understanding the end times time frames - is that they think the 1260 days, the 42 months, the time, times, half times are all exact equivalents of each other.

The 42 months expression takes into account the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses's bodies lay dead in Jerusalem.

The time, times, and half times takes into account the amount of earth time that passes while the war in heaven takes place.

The abomination of desolation is setup in the midst (middle part) of the seven years, not the exact midpoint. On day 1185, not day 1260.