Vance said:
But Mark, this is from your very definition!
"Note that methodological naturalism does not hold that such entities or forces do not exist, but merely that one cannot use them within a scientific explanation"
That is the naturalistic assumption I have been talking about. Now, if God does indeed act in time and space then there will be evidence, will there not? Since science focuses on the evidence then we should not be prejudiced against the explanation being God's special creation particularly when we have exausted every other explanation.
Thus, it is not ANTI-theistic in the least. Where this definition gets it wrong, though, is when it calls it a "philosophical" tenet. It is just a particular choice of methodology based solely on the idea that the supernatural can not be tested, or at least not in the way that the natural can.
You mean it cannot be accepted no matter what the evidence, or didn't you just dismiss all theistic explanations as unscientific.
Again (for the n'th time) naturalistic methodology is not a belief that says God could not have done it. It is not even a belief that there must be a naturalistic cause. It is not a belief system at all. It is just a method developed to determine what the natural cause would be if there is one. That is all. Period. It is the only way to study the natural world that actually works.
And again naturalistic methodlogy is not religiously neutral. The modern evolutionary mindset is expressed explicitly and being deadset against special creation and often calls God incompetant, deceptive and worse.
Now, true, very many of those who use this method also have a belief that there must be a naturalistic cause (philosophical naturalism). But the fact that Christian scientists actually follow the naturalistic methodology proves that it is just a method, a process for the discovery of the natural world, not any statement at all about whether that is all there is.
NM and philosophical naturalism are identical at the heart of the emphasis, both are overtly hostile to anything theistic, especially the Bible.
Think of all the areas of science outside of origin issues for a moment, which is 99.9% of science. Why is it not a problem at all for them to use, as they do, a naturalistic methodology to study the natural world, but it is all the sudden wrong to do it with the age of the earth.
Newsflash, there is no such thing as absolute dating. They just look at a rate of decay and guess at how long ago the geologic clock was set back to zero. I don't know where you get 99.9%, science is at best 20\20 hindsight looking back over past mistakes.
As for your statements about TE, they are just patently false and insulting to those of us who are deeply committed to the Christian cause as you are and are not in the least by humanistic, but happen to believe that God created through evolution. To say we are no different than atheists is something very serious.
With regards to evolution I see none and know of no departure from the naturalistic assumptions of the atheist or the agnostic. No need to feel insulted, this has been the case in human nature from the begining.
By nature God is not in all our thoughts: we leave him to manage his own affairs, to sit quietly, as we imagine, in heaven, and leave us on earth to manage ours; so that we have no more of the fear of God before our eyes, than of the love of God in our hearts.
Thus are all men atheists in the world. But atheism itself does not screen us from idolatry.
(THE SERMONS OF JOHN WESLEY, taken from: Heritage of great evangelical teaching)
Please note that modern geocentrists would label you just as "humanistic" for your obvious willingness to allow the discoveries of secular, even atheistic, science to override the literal reading of God's Word.
Who are these modern geocentrists? I know of many Calvinitsts and none support a geocentric earth. Now when Descartes came up with his Ego sum, ego existo (I think therefore I am) Newton rejected it for being too atheistic. The reason was that one of the things he rejected was the ability to know that God in fact existed. We have very few geocentrists left, if any, there are a lot of egocentrists though.
I know John Calvin would think so.
You are thinking of Martin Luther I think, he called Copernicus a fool for suggesting the heliocentric concept because it contradicted Joshua where the earth is said to have stood still in the sky. There is a reason why this may have just been prolonged light but living in that day and age I might have just shrugged and said, dunno Martain...
...I just dunno.
Here is a question for you. Given what Calvin said about heliocentrism when he was alive (basically everything you are now saying about evolution), what would he believe on that issue now? Would he still be an ardent Geocentrist, believing (as he did then) that geocentrism was plain and literal reading of Scripture? Or would he recognize the error in his interpretation and accept the conclusions of modern science?
I would have to see the quote but chances are I don't think there would be a conflict for me. Geocentrist thinking would not have given me much reason to worry. Now if we are talking about the original creation, this is inextricably linked to the Gospel at its foundation.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
(Hebrew 11:1,2; The King James Version, 1769)
A thought for you, Galileo would seem to have been vindicated for his statement before the Inquisition, "The Bible tells us how to get to heaven, not how the heavens work". Was he on trial for contradicting the Bible, or Aristotle? Keep in mind, scientific thought in that day was derived from Aristotle, not the Bible. Aristotle's work represented the naturalistic assumptions of his day.
Grace and peace,
Mark