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Featured A warning about False Teaching in the churches!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    You are correct! As D Martyn Lloyd Jones said: "There is no such person as a good Christian. We are all vile people who have been saved by grace."

    Charles Spurgeon quoted" "I'm just a poor sinner, and nothing at all; but Jesus Christ is my all in all".
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
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  2. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He is among the most sane and sound Pentecostals I’ve ever come across, and THAT'S A GOOD THING!
     
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  3. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There you go again not recognizing Paul and John and Peter are talking about the here and now, and not the sweet by and by.

    Here again you are talking about the law of sin and death which you believe you are still under. You either are or your not born again spiritually.

    There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    Oscarr, our body has nothing to do with our nature. Our body can be a super model and healthy, yet our nature could be psychopathic. Or we could be riddled with cancer, but yet have the nature of an angel. Why is this so hard for you to see the difference. BTW, again Romans 7 is about the Old Covenant laws having to be kept with a carnal nature, not the nature of a true Christian who has been born again of the Spirit and has the righteous requirements of the laws of God written on our hearts. The seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9.

    Wow, Oscarr, we are DEAD TO SIN. That is in our NATURE, not our bodies that wear out and grow old. Peter talks about our divine NATURE, not our divine body. Romans 8:9-10 is Paul not wanting you to be confused in verse 10 as to which flesh is in the Spirit of verse 9. He is not talking about the same flesh in both 9 and 10.

    Those desires and urges are from God, and are only perverted by a carnal nature. But those who have been born again with the divine nature have self-control and holiness, keeping yourself only to your spouse. If not, we either still have the carnal nature, or the Holy Spirit has been quenched and you lose your inheritance, for no adulterer will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Here are some quotes from another poster who sounds like you.

    "Our transgressions are forgiven and our sins are covered. God does not input sin. However much sin abounds in us, Grace does much more abound."

    "When Jesus died, I was baptized into his death. Thus, being a dead man, I don't sin. My flesh does, but I don't."
     
  4. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    That's strange. I thought I was as mad as the rest of them! :)
     
  5. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    You are quite correct in what you say. When I say that we have a new heart and spirit, that is the same as saying we have a new nature. That is the outcome of the complete transformation that comes through being born again of the Spirit of God. I have absolutely now argument about that!

    Also, you need to quote the rest of the reference, "Where sin does abound, grace does much more abound. Therefore, do we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How can we continue in sin when we are dead to it?"

    My point all along is that a genuinely converted, born again, Spirit filled believer will not willingly continue in sin, and will have the attitude: "By the grace of God I will not yield to the works of the flesh".

    We must not underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit to keep us on the path to holiness. This is more than just jerking, falling down, shaking, speaking in tongues in church services, etc. The real power of the Holy Spirit is in the gospel of Christ bringing sinners to repentance, and also keeping a believer on the right path to holiness. All the rest is just froth and bubble and steam going out through the whistle instead of into the driving wheels.

    We cannot keep ourselves from the works of the flesh. If it were possible in ourselves, Jesus would not have needed to come and die for us on the cross. Trying to resolve to keep from the works of the flesh and to be holy in our own strength and will is actually denying the work of Christ and treading His cross underfoot

    That's why I disagree with the OP, because he is implying that we have to keep the commands of God through our own strength and will, instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to do the work in us.
     
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Then Kefa said, “Why has the Adversary so filled your heart that you lie to the Ruach HaKodesh and keep back some of the money you received for the land?
     
  7. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Tell that to the knucklehead I quoted!

    First off, I may have written a book on tongues, but where have I ever said that the gifts of the Spirit have anything to do with manifesting righteousness? As I said in my book, the EVIDENCE of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not tongues, but supernatural power over sin. At that point we are sanctified. And the rest of our Christian walk does not have to do with overcoming sin, as is taught in Reformation churches, saying we will always sin. No, we have been given the divine nature and the perfecting of that nature is glorification. Holiness is part of that process.

    2 Peter 1:
    giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

    Those that have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit are the ones that would have to use their own willpower as they would have no power from on high. Their "righteousness" would be no better than filthy rags. You know I am only talking about the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit that takes us out of the flesh that sins, and into the Spirit that doesn't. But you don't believe that. You still believe we will always be in the flesh until our body dies. That is NOT what Paul is saying at all. We are either saved and walk in the Spirit, or slaves to sin and the lusts of the flesh and will not inherit the Kingdom of God. We are not both.
     
  8. theoneandonlypencil

    theoneandonlypencil Curb your enlightenment :^)

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    I was going to leave this thread alone, but I've got to correct you.

    In Revelation 22:19, 'book' is actually a mistranslation. It is not supposed to read 'book of life', but instead(following the original greek)'tree of life'. The NIV version(among others)translates it as follows;

    "19. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll." - Revelation 22:19 (NIV)

    So no, your name can't be written out of 'the book of life'. God is saying that whoever takes away from His word is also taking away from their share of the tree of life in the Holy City. Just like those who do not wish to obey God, do not receive his gifts. Much like the 'Christians' described in the bible who are all for show and no true love for God. Again; they were never saved. It was only for show.

    I'm not going to bother responding to anything else you said, primarily because it reeks of self-righteous pride and an astonishing lack of self-awareness. Before you go trying to speak down to people about their 'intelligence levels in understanding simple ideas', you should at least be able to recognize translation errors and be able to provide multiple verses to back your statements.

    I don't give a rat's patootie about human theological drivel.
     
  9. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    That was by direct revelation to the Apostle Peter. It wasn't a personal judgment in the same manner as our present religious hypocrites judge ordinary people.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Think instead , not about the so-called or real present religious hypocrites ,

    but think instead about and on those who like the messengers in Scripture called and chosen by Yahuweh for Himself,
    are messengers called and chosen by Yahuweh for Himself....

    i.e. AS DIRECTED IN SCRIPTURE< SEEK out those who ARE FAITHFUL AND TRUE, not hypocrites.
     
  11. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Is it a sin to have fun and enjoyment pressing your buttons? :)

    I have discovered through a close reading of New Testament Scripture that being baptised with the Spirit and being born again are one and the same. There is more support in Scripture for it than the old Holiness doctrine of the baptism with the Spirit being subsequent experience involving entire sanctification by faith.

    This means that if a person does not have the Holy Spirit he is not saved. If he or she does have the Holy Spirit it means that the person is saved, although they may not manifest any of the gifts as yet. Therefore I depart from the AOG doctrine that the primary evidence of the baptism with the Spirit is speaking in tongues.

    (By the way, don't for a minute think that I don't value tongues. I have had a lot of blessing and pleasure in it for the last 50 years!)

    But what I see in the New Testament is that the primary evidence of the baptism with the Spirit is the person is born again and converted to Christ. Paul backs that up by saying, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ because it is power of God unto salvation to every one who believes". The power of God is actually the power of the Holy Spirit, so therefore, it is the power of the baptism with the Holy Spirit that converts a person to Christ.

    Now, having got that out of the way, the sin issue is totally resolved when a person is converted to Christ. In this, I totally agree with you. Also, for a converted believer, there is no falling away, because the indwelling Holy Spirit will not allow it. You should know that. Don't you sense a total opposition within you against the very thought of denying Christ in any way? I do. It is the evidence of a true conversion to Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    But we live in an imperfect body that has the sentence of death on it. It is like the Ancient Mariner's albatross around his neck. That is the reality of our present life. This is why we will never have total satisfaction until we are resurrected into glory.

    But as you will agree, we are running a race, and we have to keep running to get past the finish line in one piece.

    This is why I disagree with the OP. If I had his attitude I would be saying that everyone is false except you and me, and I am not sure about you! :)
     
  12. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Actually I wouldn't know the difference, because in outward appearances they would appear to be exactly the same to me. Therefore I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, treat them as genuine believers, and leave the judgment to God when he separates the sheep from the goats at the Judgment.

    Paul says that he does not allow anyone to judge him about the way he expresses his faith or lives his life. He doesn't even judge himself in those things. He leaves the judgment to his Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. In this light, I can't really say that I am a true believer or a hypocrite because I don't have the ability to judge.

    But if anyone accuses me of anything, I will agree with them. Whatever anyone says about me, true or false, I will agree with them, because that is what I am, just a poor sinner and nothing at all, and not afraid in the least to acknowledge it
     
  13. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And the thing is, you never get that attitude from PAUL (who actually has authority).
     
  14. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Scripture says that we must all examine ourselves to ensure that we are in the faith. It doesn't say that we have to examine everyone else to ensure they are in the faith!

    If I really did believe what the OP is saying - that those who fall short of obeying the commands of Christ, and have struggles with the flesh, ie: watch too many Spaghetti Westerns, then I would be the first to call myself false! I would rather judge myself in that manner (as the Scripture says that if I judge myself I will not be judged), and say, "Lord, forgive me, a sinner" and put my whole dependence on the grace of God, which is entirely sufficient for me in whatever state of holiness I find myself in. Jesus has to forgive me seventy times seven a day sometimes for my failures and shortcomings, so I am in absolutely no position to judge others or quote endless Scriptures to prove that most of the church and pastors around me are false. All Jesus has to do is to put His little finger on just one of my faults, and that would silence me for ever!
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    It is perhaps then very important to learn from Yahuweh and His Word the difference, lest someone shares in sins that lead to death and thus shares the guilt and the punishment too.
     
  16. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I agree. There is definitely a place for correcting a brother or sister when we see them straying from the path and in danger of harming themselves spiritually. We do it in humility and in the fear of God knowing that by the grace of God we are who we are, and that there is the potential that we could stumble and fall and need brother correction ourselves.

    I was very thankful as a leader and preacher in my church to be surrounded by a good, solid, and mature team of men who sorted me out when I needed it.
     
  17. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree. This difference is why the OP has me on ignore! He has quite the temper. LOL

    What do you think of this. Even now after writing my book, I have changed one view (well a couple LOL). The initial baptism with the Holy Spirit is being born again of the Spirit, which gives us the power over sins. But it also gives us as part of the armor of God the abilities of Mark16:17-18 for us individually. It would be up to us whether or not we believe in them or not; but the gifts of God are irrevocable. BTW, the part of serpents and poison is merely a Hebrew idiom representing protection.

    But there are other fillings than the original baptism, but they are for ministry. Those are the ones in 1 Corinthians 12, and is why not everyone has these gifts in the Church. I would call these fillings, anointings.

    What do you think?

    We are on the same page here. I just glimpsed a little of the rest of your post, so let's see what more you have to say about sin. LOL

    So far, so good! I agree. But you know as well as I do that many pseudo Christians believe in OSAS and live carnally. That is why I believe that doctrine can be very dangerous if not taught actually doing what Christ taught. I actually go by the assurance of 1 John 3:18-24 (minus 20 - the contrast):

    18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him....

    21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

    24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

    Nope! Hine! Nada! Zilch! Nix! Nee! Het! Non! Nei!
     
  18. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I was waiting for that last sentence! :)
    I just knew that reading through the positive bits that there was going to be a sting in the tail! LOL!

    That's what happens when you say things that are just too true for an unteachable person to accept. They put you on ignore.

    I don't do that sort of thing. I was brought up with a father and a brother who were great debaters. My father was the cunning one. He would press our buttons until we started shouting at him and then he would say, "You lost the argument. You raised your voices!" That is why I come across opinionated and don't concede without a good fight (non violent of course!).

    I heard something insightful about the filling of the Spirit. It is more than just a feeling of being anointed or whatever. It is being controlled and led by the Spirit, where our will is surrendered to Him. Of course, we are not, as the Scripture says, to be led like a horse or a mule with a bit and bridle. But we willingly follow the prompting of the Spirit as He points us in the direction He wants us to go.

    The anointing of the Spirit is not a feeling either. We can be powerfully anointed and not feel a thing. Anointing is the commissioning to do a specific work that the Holy Spirit wants us to do and He gives us the authority to get it done, even if it involves miracles. Therefore, if a person is anointed with the gift of healing for a particular situation, the person will be healed. Or if a preacher has the anointing of the Spirit, then his words will have the Spirit's authority to achieve what the Spirit wants to do through them.

    I fully agree that there are those who say that they subscribe to OSAS and yet live in the works of the flesh. My view is that they have religion and the profession of Christianity, but are not genuinely converted to Christ. But they are so close to the genuine that we cannot tell them apart without the gift of discernment of spirits. Peter manifested that gift when he "outed" Ananias and Sapphira.

    The OP is confused about what the commandments of Christ actually are for us. The main commandment of God is that we believe and have total faith in Christ alone. The main commandment of Christ is that we love God with all our hearts and love one another as we love ourselves. Paul sums this up through the list of the fruit of the Spirit. When a believer is living according to the fruit of the Spirit, he is fulfilling all the commands of Christ. Jesus said, "By this they shall know that you are truly My disciples, that you love one another".

    Therefore we can to some degree distinguish between a true believer and a hypocrite. The hypocrite can be perfectly religious in all his ways, but a true believer radiates a quality of love that a hypocrite could never do.
     
  19. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When we are cleansed of all sin, we are sanctified to do good works. Sin has already been dealt with. The rest of our lives is perfecting the divine nature, and that process is called Glorification. We are no longer sinners, we are "children of God." We develop the mind of Christ, and we add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

    This is not something I've ever heard taught in a Church. Most pastors, even Spurgeon, call us still sinners. But that is an insult to the power of Christ.

    1 John 3:
    Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

    John 8:34-36
    34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

    Free from what? SIN!
     
  20. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, I agree. But the conversion and baptism of the Holy Spirit is quite the experience!!!!!!!!! And the change in me that came from the new birth was amazing. Power over sin that I never experienced, and immediately!

    I agree with what you are saying. But why should that guy who is living in the flesh with his false assurance believe anything different? That is why it is so dangerous. I've even seen Calvinists say that those who commit the sins of the flesh of Galatians 5:19-21 will only lose rewards, not salvation and heaven. That is why I would rather have proof that God is pleased with us, such as in 1 John 3:21-24. Answered prayer. You'll never guess who agrees with me. John MacArthur!!! But that was after 3 years; he first thought that we can pray to God, but He only answers us through His Word, not individually. See Oscarr, even old dogs can learn new tricks!

    What did the OP say were the commandments of Christ for us? I must have missed it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
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