A vote for Sanders is a vote for Sanity

[Caretaker]

Full article: https://consortiumnews.com/2016/03/24/should-progressives-back-sanders/

Excerpt:

Sanders is not just a “lesser evil.” His proposals and policies are good on some key issues such as economic inequality, health-care, education, and the judicial/criminal system. His ideas on foreign policy suggest a substantial shift away from interventionism and militarism.

In addition, Sanders seeks to change the current electoral process based on money coming from corporations, political action committees and wealthy individuals. Changing this system is the first step toward breaking the strangle-hold of the military-industrial complex, Wall Street and reactionary lobbies such as AIPAC and the NRA.

About the author:
Rick Sterling has been an organizer and activist for about 45 years. He currently works with Task Force on the Americas, Mt Diablo Peace & Justice Center and Syria Solidarity Movement.

 

[Thunder Peel]

A vote for Sanders is a vote for your neighbor's paycheck. There's nothing sane about it---only selfishness.

 

[Caretaker]

A vote for Sanders is a vote for your neighbor's paycheck. There's nothing sane about it---only selfishness.

The type of opposition I see to Sanders among some seems to me to be based in what you claim motivates Bernie's supporters: selfishness.

In the Bible God tells us very plainly to help those in need. The early church shared all things among themselves viewing all possessions as everyone's - God-given and available for helping whoever needed help.

And neither is this fanned fear of socialism rational. If elected Bernie would be the President - not congress. The president does not formulate legislation nor vote on and pass it. Bernie could no more move the country toward socialism than Ron Paul (who I voted for last time) could have moved the country toward libertarianism.

But the president does have the opportunity to reign in our misguided interventionist, imperialistic, and militaristic foreign policy.

In my view, resistance to both men is rooted in the faction of the populace that imagines the US as the ruler of the world, and backs the "do it to them before they do it to us" mentality in foreign affairs.

Problem is, we have been doing it to them for hundreds of years and we're now getting some blowback from that.

But bullies are slow learners, and have great difficulty yielding to the way of Jesus: loving and doing good to one's enemies, and getting rid of them not by slaughtering them but instead by making them our friends.

 

[ambc]

Full article: Should Progressives Back Sanders?

Excerpt:

Sanders is not just a “lesser evil.” His proposals and policies are good on some key issues such as economic inequality, health-care, education, and the judicial/criminal system. His ideas on foreign policy suggest a substantial shift away from interventionism and militarism.

In addition, Sanders seeks to change the current electoral process based on money coming from corporations, political action committees and wealthy individuals. Changing this system is the first step toward breaking the strangle-hold of the military-industrial complex, Wall Street and reactionary lobbies such as AIPAC and the NRA.

About the author:
Rick Sterling has been an organizer and activist for about 45 years. He currently works with Task Force on the Americas, Mt Diablo Peace & Justice Center and Syria Solidarity Movement.

A vote for Bernie Sanders is a vote for abortion, sky high taxes, and marsupial government programs which serve no purpose but to create unnecessary burdens on responsible people. Ultimately, Sanders is a socialist—indeed, he admitted so himself—and he is no better than his predecessors like Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot, all of whom are unrepentant mass killers. Strange that Bernie would want to associate himself with such vile people.

 

[Audacious]

A vote for Bernie Sanders is a vote for abortion, sky high taxes, and marsupial government programs which serve no purpose but to create unnecessary burdens on responsible people. Ultimately, Sanders is a socialist—indeed, he admitted so himself—and he is no better than his predecessors like Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot, all of whom are unrepentant mass killers. Strange that Bernie would want to associate himself with such vile people.

You do realize that people in Finland, Denmark, Norway, et cetera, are actually doing much better than those in the US in literally every measurable area, right?

Sanders wants us to be more like those countries. Not more like the USSR.

Edit: Also, Christian socialism is a thing. I'm a Christian socialist, and I don't agree with Sanders on everything. (Granted, he's a bit too conservative for my taste.)

 

[ambc]

You do realize that people in Finland, Denmark, Norway, et cetera, are actually doing much better than those in the US in literally every measurable area, right?

Sanders wants us to be more like those countries. Not more like the USSR.

Edit: Also, Christian socialism is a thing. I'm a Christian socialist, and I don't agree with Sanders on everything. (Granted, he's a bit too conservative for my taste.)

The US is not an ethnically homogeneous nation. Therefore socialism can't work here. The sort of socialism that you're talking about works in nations like Denmark because they don't have much, if any, multiculturalism. People are more likely to want to share wealth with others who are like themselves.

Explain how Bernie Sanders has conservative leanings, because I certainly don't see any.

 

[Audacious]

The US is not an ethnically homogeneous nation. Therefore socialism can't work here. The sort of socialism that you're talking about works in nations like Denmark because they don't have much, if any, multiculturalism. People are more likely to want to share wealth with others who are like themselves.

So in other words: socialism won't work in America because we're racist?

Explain how Bernie Sanders has conservative leanings, because I certainly don't see any.

Bernie Sanders doesn't want to nationalize the health care industry; among many other things.

I don't even believe in privately owned grocery stores. Or private law firms. And I want a cap on all income above $150,000 a year. Bernie Sanders is much more conservative than I am.

 

[ambc]

So in other words: socialism won't work in America because we're racist?

Socialism won't work because it will be white and Asian people basically subsidizing low-income Mexicans and black people. It will never work.

Bernie Sanders doesn't want to nationalize the health care industry; among many other things.

I don't even believe in privately owned grocery stores. Or private law firms. And I want a cap on all income above $150,000 a year. Bernie Sanders is much more conservative than I am.

Wow, now that isn't liberal or even socialist. It sounds like Marxism to me. How did that system work out in the USSR? Prior to its collapse, the average monthly income was about $80. Wages have risen by ten times that amount in Russia now that capitalism has been implemented, and Moscow has the most billionaires of any city.

 

[Audacious]

Socialism won't work because it will be white and Asian people basically subsidizing low-income Mexicans and black people. It will never work.

So... it won't work because you don't want the black and Hispanic individuals to be helped with your money?

I believe that is the definition of racism.

Wow, now that isn't liberal or even socialist.

Actually, it is socialism. Practically the definition of it.

I wouldn't necessarily want to do it to everything, though. Just absolutely necessary stuff, like attorneys, medicine, food, and those sorts of things.

It sounds like Marxism to me.

My brother is a hardcore Trotskyist. Trust me: I'm familiar with Marxism. Also, IIRC socialism is a form of Marxism.

How did that system work out in the USSR? Prior to its collapse, the average monthly income was about $80. Wages have risen by ten times that amount in Russia now that capitalism has been implemented, and Moscow has the most billionaires of any city.

You do realize that I'm talking about socialism within an actual, free democracy, right? It's a bit different from the USSR.

Shockingly, things work much better when you avoid terrible dictatorships.[/QUOTE]

 

[TheNorwegian]

The US is not an ethnically homogeneous nation. Therefore socialism can't work here. The sort of socialism that you're talking about works in nations like Denmark because they don't have much, if any, multiculturalism. People are more likely to want to share wealth with others who are like themselves.

Fun fact: Norway has a higher percentage of the population born outside of the country than the US has

 

[miamited]

Hi all,

Ambc wrote:

Ultimately, Sanders is a socialist

I don't hold that socialism, to some degree, is an evil ideology. Yes, carried out to the form that some communist countries do, where what and how much can be produced must be approved by the government doesn't seem to work very well. But, the idea that we should all care about and help one another in times of need is, as caretaker pointed out in his post #3, a godly act. As I read some of these posts against socialism, I can't help but see this niggling idea that their positions are largely supported by their greed. Why should I have to give some of mine to help others? While such an understanding seems to fit fine with the ideology of men, I don't think it's in keeping with the commands of God.

Sadly, I expect on a 'christian only' thread that the positions espoused would be in keeping with godly values, of which greed is not one of them. Sure, I'm not at all surprised that out there in the world we don't find all kinds of mantras that we shouldn't be forced to help one another. But on a christian site? God asks us to. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. Similarly, if one has two dollars, as a christian, he should be willing and able and quite satisfied to give one to his brother who has none. But we're not even talking here about robbing the rich to supply for the poor. No one is asking those who have to give up everything that they have to supply the poor. It is only asked that they give up a rather small portion of what they have to help the poor.

When I see such things as have been posted here on this 'christians only' board, I have to ask myself, is this what's pleasing to God? Do christians honestly believe that paying some small pittance of a tax to help those in need, goes against God's teaching for them? We seem to have little problem giving massive mountains of money to build up the strongest military in the world, but helping others? Nah!!! Is that really the value system that God espouses?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Actually, it is socialism. Practically the definition of it.

Socialist programs have already been implemented in the United States.

5 Ways America is Already Socialist

75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America

10 Socialist Policies Implemented In The United States

Everyday Socialism, American-Style, Is Happening Now

Bernie Sanders Is Right: The US Is Already a Socialist Country

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Full article: Should Progressives Back Sanders?

Excerpt:

Sanders is not just a “lesser evil.” His proposals and policies are good on some key issues such as economic inequality, health-care, education, and the judicial/criminal system. His ideas on foreign policy suggest a substantial shift away from interventionism and militarism.

In addition, Sanders seeks to change the current electoral process based on money coming from corporations, political action committees and wealthy individuals. Changing this system is the first step toward breaking the strangle-hold of the military-industrial complex, Wall Street and reactionary lobbies such as AIPAC and the NRA.

About the author:
Rick Sterling has been an organizer and activist for about 45 years. He currently works with Task Force on the Americas, Mt Diablo Peace & Justice Center and Syria Solidarity Movement.

He's really the only truly sane and reasonable candidate out there.

 

[pat34lee]

He's really the only truly sane and reasonable candidate out there.

Only the dread 'Report' prevents a good reply here.

 

[Sketcher]

Sanders was actually the greater of two evils in the Democratic primary.

 

[ambc]

Fun fact: Norway has a higher percentage of the population born outside of the country than the US has

Fun fact: Norway, as well as Sweden, has among the highest rape rates in the West due to mass Muslims immigration.

That fact didn't register with you, did it?

 

[Audacious]

Fun fact: Norway, as well as Sweden, has among the highest rape rates in the West due to mass Muslims immigration.

That fact didn't register with you, did it?

All countries compared for Crime > Violent crime > Rapes per million people

Norway: 191.85 (per million people)
United States: 274.04 (per million people)
Sweden: 635.52 (per million people)

You're right about Sweden, but not necessarily about the cause. You're totally wrong when it comes to Norway, though, as they have much fewer rapes than we do.

We (the US) have got more rapes than most of the first world, but Sweden and Australia (289.05) were the only advanced countries worse than us. So the US isn't exactly doing great either.

Side note: Muslims are not all a bunch of evil rapists. Rojava, which is almost entirely Muslim, has a very low rate of rape and many other crimes. I suspect their feminist policies probably help to deter the problem a bit, too.

 

[TheNorwegian]

Fun fact: Norway, as well as Sweden, has among the highest rape rates in the West due to mass Muslims immigration.

That fact didn't register with you, did it?

Another fun fact: Rape is far more common per capita in the US compared to Norway
Countries Compared by Crime > Rape rate. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

 

[Yekcidmij]

In the Bible God tells us very plainly to help those in need.

Through force? Does God forcibly take stuff from one person and give it to another though a system of taxation? Sure, the bible teaches charity, but it teaches against theft.

The early church shared all things among themselves viewing all possessions as everyone's - God-given and available for helping whoever needed help.

Is America the early Church? Did the early Church force the entire society to relinquish their possessions?

And neither is this fanned fear of socialism rational.

Sure it is - people want to take stuff they don't own.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Edit: Also, Christian socialism is a thing.

Inconsistency is a thing too. I don't know the why one should be for forcibly taking people's stuff on one hand and for charity on the other.