A View of Salvation

[Lily of Valleys]

God has chosen those who will in the end enter the Holy City according to His foreknowledge, similar to how he had chosen Jacob and David. Why God chose some people but not the others is based on His sovereignty and what He foreknew about us. God foreknew David would sin and would repent, all out of his free will. In effect, God has predestined our final destination without taking away our free will.

Only God knows who are the one He has chosen, those who have been chosen will be saved in the end, those who will not be saved have never obtained the salvation to start with, so no one will ever lose their salvation.

Does anyone know of any Bible verses that would speak against this view?

 

[AlexDTX]

God has chosen those who will in the end enter the Holy City according to His foreknowledge, similar to how he had chosen Jacob and David. Why God chose some people but not the others is based on His sovereignty and what He foreknew about us. God foreknew David would sin and would repent, all out of his free will. In effect, God has predestined our final destination without taking away our free will.

Only God knows who are the one He has chosen, those who have been chosen will be saved in the end, those who will not be saved have never obtained the salvation to start with, so no one will ever lose their salvation.

Does anyone know of any Bible verses that would speak against this view?

Is the Church the bride of Christ? A man may choose a woman to be his bride, but if the woman rejects the proposal, there is no wedding. Yes, God chooses, but we must accept his choice. Election is a two way street, not a one way street.

 

[Adstar]

God has chosen those who will in the end enter the Holy City according to His foreknowledge, similar to how he had chosen Jacob and David. Why God chose some people but not the others is based on His sovereignty and what He foreknew about us. God foreknew David would sin and would repent, all out of his free will. In effect, God has predestined our final destination without taking away our free will.

Only God knows who are the one He has chosen, those who have been chosen will be saved in the end, those who will not be saved have never obtained the salvation to start with, so no one will ever lose their salvation.

Does anyone know of any Bible verses that would speak against this view?

AMEN I have been saying this for the last 15 years but very few will listen.. The only difference i have with you is that some did obtain salvation but fell away from the truth.. God foreknows who will remain in his will to the end ..

Calvinists will speak against your first statement..

And OSAS believers (which is actually one of the 5 points of calvinism) will be against my belief that people fall away from the truth..

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Is the Church the bride of Christ? A man may choose a woman to be his bride, but if the woman rejects the proposal, there is no wedding. Yes, God chooses, but we must accept his choice. Election is a two way street, not a one way street.

Yes, I believe that everyone God has chosen will eventually accept Jesus Christ out of their free will:

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:11-14)

 

[dannheim]

It is God's desire that all be saved. He says this many times:


Acts 10:43
“whoever believes in him shall receive remission of sins.”

Romans 9:33, 10:11
“whoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.“

I John 5:1
“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.”

John 11:26
“whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.”

John 3:16
“whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 12:46-48
“whoever believes on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and does not believe, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

 

[Lily of Valleys]

AMEN I have been saying this for the last 15 years but very few will listen.. The only difference i have with you is that some did obtain salvation but fell away from the truth.. God foreknows who will remain in his will to the end ..

Calvinists will speak against your first statement..

And OSAS believers (which is actually one of the 5 points of calvinism) will be against my belief that people fall away from the truth..

My belief is that people who are chosen by God will eventually repent and return to God even if they might have fallen away from the truth, like King David. Those who have fallen away from the truth and never repent are not the ones who are chosen by God, and have never obtained salvation to start with, therefore technically speaking, they have never lost their salvation.

 

[PeacefulHope]

My Mother has been a Christian for 40 years. During that time, she has gone through 2 marriages and walked away from Christianity 5 times!! Many a time she walked down paths of Paganism and sin, along with indulging in astrology, drinking, etc etc. I cannot judge her for this as I am in no place to judge, but everytime my Mother walked away, the Lord brought her back again. Every. Single. Time. She'd walk away, and grow far from him, but He'd bring her back and forgive her when she repented. She walked away one last time in 2001, but He brought her back. That time she prayed that she'd never walk away again, and cried and repented and to this day she feels regretful. After she prayed for this, she heard a voice say "You're safe now. You won't walk away again." To this day my Mother is a devoted lover of Christ, with little sign of ever turning away again.

 

[Adstar]

My belief is that people who are chosen by God will eventually repent and return to God even if they might have fallen away from the truth, like King David. Those who have fallen away from the truth and never repent are not the ones who are chosen by God, and have never obtained salvation to start with, therefore technically speaking, they have never lost their salvation.

I don't think King david fell from the truth... He was just a sinner who had a weakness for beautiful woman.. He seems to always have faith in God.. Salvation is for me about maintaning belief nad trust in Jesus ,, not about keeping up to the standards of Jesus.. We can try our best in that area but in the end we shall always fail in that regard..

As for scripture that i will use to support my view i will quote

2 Peter 2: KJV
14 "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: {15} Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; {16} But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. {17} These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. {18} For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. {19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. {20} For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. {22} But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

And i will also mention the parable of the sower of the seed.. it also details people who accepted the truth with joy but later abandoned it and fell away fro the truth...

Of course God foreknows those who by their free will shall endure till the end in Belief and Faith and He knows thats who will abandon their own salvation.

Mark 13 KJV
13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

 

[Lily of Valleys]

It is God's desire that all be saved. He says this many times:

Acts 10:43
“whoever believes in him shall receive remission of sins.”

Romans 9:33, 10:11
“whoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.“

I John 5:1
“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.”

John 11:26
“whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.”

John 3:16
“whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 12:46-48
“whoever believes on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and does not believe, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

I agree that it is God's desire that all be saved. I don't think God would want to use a flood to wipe from the face of the earth the human race He had created if not because of how great the wickedness of the human race were, but God did choose to save Noah and his family while killing the rest.

Yes, to believe is a criteria to be saved, since no one will be justified without through the redemption of Jesus Christ. All the elect that have been chosen by God would believe in Jesus Christ out of their free will and maintain their faith in the end, and God foreknew that even before the creation of the world.

 

[dannheim]

I agree that it is God's desire that all be saved. I don't think God would want to use a flood to wipe from the face of the earth the human race He had created if not because of how great the wickedness of the human race were, but God did choose to save Noah and his family while killing the rest.

Yes, to believe is a criteria to be saved, since no one will be justified without through the redemption of Jesus Christ. All the elect that have been chosen by God would believe in Jesus Christ out of their free will and maintain their faith in the end, and God foreknew that even before the creation of the world.

You mention to believe is one of the criteria I would like to know what you think the other criteria are.

 

[Acts2:38]

God has chosen those who will in the end enter the Holy City according to His foreknowledge, similar to how he had chosen Jacob and David. Why God chose some people but not the others is based on His sovereignty and what He foreknew about us. God foreknew David would sin and would repent, all out of his free will. In effect, God has predestined our final destination without taking away our free will.

Only God knows who are the one He has chosen, those who have been chosen will be saved in the end, those who will not be saved have never obtained the salvation to start with, so no one will ever lose their salvation.

Does anyone know of any Bible verses that would speak against this view?

My belief is that people who are chosen by God will eventually repent and return to God even if they might have fallen away from the truth, like King David. Those who have fallen away from the truth and never repent are not the ones who are chosen by God, and have never obtained salvation to start with, therefore technically speaking, they have never lost their salvation.

Hello and good day,

With all due respect and love, you sound confused bordering between predestination or free will. From these two postings, you contradict yourself and flip flop, maybe without even knowing it. Although, I would say you lean more to predestination, especially with this second post I put above.

Christians can lose salvation verses:
#1 Hebrews 6:4-6 "for those once enlightened" this states they were in Christ but you find out they lost it.

#2 Mark 3:14-19 "twelve ordained"- includes Judas and Acts 1:25 "by transgression fell" tells you Judas was in good standing until he sinned. Judas could have had "Godly sorrow" and repented, but we all know that didn't happen.

#3 Philemon 1:24 and Colossians 4:14 Shows Demas in good standing as a Christian and shows a positive outlook. However you see here in 2 Timothy 4:10, Demas fell, turning back to the world.

#4 Galatians 5 This book is speaking to Christians and speaks of falling from grace in chapter 5. Therefore you must be left with the conclusion that even if you were saved before, you must remain faithful (Revelation 2:10 "faithful unto death").

#5 The seven churches in Revelation. In a vision to John, he is told to tell people in these local churches, what they are doing right and wrong, and to correct their error OR ELSE. Considering for example, Ephesus is no longer around today, they must have faced the consequences in not returning to "their first love". Christians can fall from grace if they do not remain faithful.

#6 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 is a scary concept that if one doesn't know the gospel OR obey it, they are doomed. However, I am focusing on the obeying part (Matthew 7:21-23), if Christians are not following the gospel commands will, according to this scripture, suffer the consequences, therefore they are fallen from grace.

Predestination holds no weight to the scope of these verses:
#1 John 3:15-17 implies that ANYONE can have this opportunity to come to Christ, but they have to choose to do so. Free will. Yes God knows the outcome in advance, but leaves it to us to choose anyhow.

#2 The false doctrine of predestination has long argued that God has an established, set blue-print for people. Their destiny is merely to follow the script that God has written for their lives. Men and women have no choice but to follow this God written road map. And, they argue, that road map may be filled with many pitfalls. This doctrine makes God guilty of everything that happens in this earth – including all of the evil. There were even some Jewish Rabbis that argued for what they called the "Yetzer Hara" – "the evil inclination." This belief was that God designed us to have an inclination toward evil, therefore it is His plan that we do evil. Or at least He must accept it when we commit evil because of this evil inclination that He placed within us. James 1:12-16 refutes such ideas.

#3 You mentioned Jacob for example, being "chosen" however, you forgot to notice Enoch. Enoch please God through his choices in life (obedience to Gods will by a persons free choice) obviously enough that God took him one day and Enoch did not know death (Hebrews 11:5; Genesis 5:22-24). Clearly Enoch was not shown to be hand picked as predestination supposes. He "walked with God" by his choice of free will and it please God.

When it pertains to salvation of people, it is the persons choice to follow God or not, even though God knows the outcome before hand (2 Peter 3:9).

#4 Speaking of 2 Peter 3:9, it implies directly that God waits as long as he can for a person to come to Him. God doesn't wish for ANYONE to perish and wait for people to come to their senses and obey. This verse too, shows free will.

#5 Hebrews 11:6 implies anyone that wishes to come to salvation. "He that cometh" is not hand picked people before time began. It states that anyone who chooses to believe in Jesus, as Lord and Savior, and obey His gospel will be saved. The only "hand picking" here is that IF you are a Christian, obeying Gods will, you are saved. IF not, you are not saved.

#6 Mark 16:15-16 not only states to preach to everyone, but also tells you that "he", meaning anyone, that believes and is baptized will be saved. Use me for example: If I chose to believe in Christ Jesus and get baptized, then by my free will that God allows us to have, I chose to do so and be saved. The very meaning of the words in context here shows free will, "He that believeth".

There are just so many examples that I could be here all day and then some.

In response to one of your statements though, a Christian that has fallen from grace CAN, if they so CHOSE, return to grace through confession/repentance toward God. If they CHOSE not to repent, then they are still fallen from grace and in a doomed state (1 John 1:6-10).

The point is, we have free will that God allowed for us to have, even if He knows the end result. People who believe in predestination take power away from God. God is the 3 Omni's as I like to put it, even with free will that He gave us, He can still know the outcome of our choices. Predestination takes that power away from God.

Secondly, predestination is a hopeless doctrine. It doesn't allow hope for the world (John 3:16) and strips that promise away for those who are not chosen.

Thirdly, it calls God a liar, making His promises He gave to the world false.

And, although I could make a long list here, lastly, on top of making God a liar, it would state that He is the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) deceiving everyone with tricky words, giving false hope to the world.

Have a very wonderful weekend.

 

[frienden thalord]

God predestined that we would be saved through faith in Christ .
HE predestined that JESUS is the Savoir .
let that sink in a bit. It was predetermined by GOD that Christ would be the savoir
of all who believe. LET this sink in .

 

[Butch5]

God has chosen those who will in the end enter the Holy City according to His foreknowledge, similar to how he had chosen Jacob and David. Why God chose some people but not the others is based on His sovereignty and what He foreknew about us. God foreknew David would sin and would repent, all out of his free will. In effect, God has predestined our final destination without taking away our free will.

Only God knows who are the one He has chosen, those who have been chosen will be saved in the end, those who will not be saved have never obtained the salvation to start with, so no one will ever lose their salvation.

Does anyone know of any Bible verses that would speak against this view?

Just about everyone that deals with the subject

 

[Acts2:38]

God predestined that we would be saved through faith in Christ .
HE predestined that JESUS is the Savoir .
let that sink in a bit. It was predetermined by GOD that Christ would be the savoir
of all who believe. LET this sink in .

Was this in reply to what I said?

If so, I don't argue prophecy God put forth. I argue against the theory that God chooses people to be saved and not saved, certain numbers of individuals, which is what the predestination (5 Point Calvinist teaching) implies. That is what I argue as not in scripture.

You are confusing the two.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

My Mother has been a Christian for 40 years. During that time, she has gone through 2 marriages and walked away from Christianity 5 times!! Many a time she walked down paths of Paganism and sin, along with indulging in astrology, drinking, etc etc. I cannot judge her for this as I am in no place to judge, but everytime my Mother walked away, the Lord brought her back again. Every. Single. Time. She'd walk away, and grow far from him, but He'd bring her back and forgive her when she repented. She walked away one last time in 2001, but He brought her back. That time she prayed that she'd never walk away again, and cried and repented and to this day she feels regretful. After she prayed for this, she heard a voice say "You're safe now. You won't walk away again." To this day my Mother is a devoted lover of Christ, with little sign of ever turning away again.

Thanks for sharing. People who truly belong to God cannot lose salvation like what Jesus said:

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:39-40)

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)

 

[Lily of Valleys]

I don't think King david fell from the truth... He was just a sinner who had a weakness for beautiful woman.. He seems to always have faith in God.. Salvation is for me about maintaning belief nad trust in Jesus ,, not about keeping up to the standards of Jesus.. We can try our best in that area but in the end we shall always fail in that regard..

I guess we just have different views of what it means by falling from the truth. I think King David had not abandoned his faith but had fallen from the truth:

"God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth." (1 John 1:5-6)

As for scripture that i will use to support my view i will quote

2 Peter 2: KJV
14 "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: {15} Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; {16} But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. {17} These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. {18} For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. {19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. {20} For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. {22} But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

And i will also mention the parable of the sower of the seed.. it also details people who accepted the truth with joy but later abandoned it and fell away fro the truth...

Of course God foreknows those who by their free will shall endure till the end in Belief and Faith and He knows thats who will abandon their own salvation.

Mark 13 KJV
13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

I think those God has chosen will endure to the end, while those people who abandon their faith are those who have never been chosen to start with.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy (Jude 1:24)

From human's perspective, it seems like those who have abandoned their faith have once obtained the salvation but lost it because they don't endure to the end. But from God's perspective, these people's names have never been written in the Book of Life to start with, hence they have never obtained the salvation therefore cannot lose it.

Please refer to John 6:39-40 and John 10:27-28 I quoted in my post above.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

You mention to believe is one of the criteria I would like to know what you think the other criteria are.

It should have been 'the' criteria, not 'a' criteria. Sorry that was posted too quickly last night before I fell off to sleep.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Hello and good day,

With all due respect and love, you sound confused bordering between predestination or free will. From these two postings, you contradict yourself and flip flop, maybe without even knowing it. Although, I would say you lean more to predestination, especially with this second post I put above.

I am trying to see if I can fine-tune a view that can reconcile all the seemingly contradictory Bible passages about salvation. I am not particularly interested in whatever-nism or any man-made doctrines, I am only interested in what the Bible says. So my view is not set in stone.

Christians can lose salvation verses:
#1 Hebrews 6:4-6 "for those once enlightened" this states they were in Christ but you find out they lost it.

Jesus said His sheep listen to His voice and follow Him and no one will snatch them out of His hand. If these people do not follow Jesus, it just means that they are not His sheep, and are not the ones who will have eternal life.

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)

#2 Mark 3:14-19 "twelve ordained"- includes Judas and Acts 1:25 "by transgression fell" tells you Judas was in good standing until he sinned. Judas could have had "Godly sorrow" and repented, but we all know that didn't happen.

Jesus had known from the beginning Judas did not believe and would betray Him, yet He still chose him as one of His 12 disciples to fulfill His plan, so Judas had never been saved:

Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” (John 6:64-65)

Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (John 6:70)

#3 Philemon 1:24 and Colossians 4:14 Shows Demas in good standing as a Christian and shows a positive outlook. However you see here in 2 Timothy 4:10, Demas fell, turning back to the world.

Those people who abandon their faith and leave shows that they have never really belonged to God, which means they have never been saved:

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

#4 Galatians 5 This book is speaking to Christians and speaks of falling from grace in chapter 5. Therefore you must be left with the conclusion that even if you were saved before, you must remain faithful (Revelation 2:10 "faithful unto death").

#5 The seven churches in Revelation. In a vision to John, he is told to tell people in these local churches, what they are doing right and wrong, and to correct their error OR ELSE. Considering for example, Ephesus is no longer around today, they must have faced the consequences in not returning to "their first love". Christians can fall from grace if they do not remain faithful.

Those people whose names that are written in the Book of Life are those that will eventually be saved, but we don't know who are God's elect. The only thing we know is as long as we maintain our faith till the end, we will be saved, which means we must have been chosen by God if we believe and maintain our faith till the end.

#6 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 is a scary concept that if one doesn't know the gospel OR obey it, they are doomed. However, I am focusing on the obeying part (Matthew 7:21-23), if Christians are not following the gospel commands will, according to this scripture, suffer the consequences, therefore they are fallen from grace.

Jesus knows His sheep and His sheep listen to Him and follow Him. Those people Jesus said never knew them are not His sheep, and have never been saved.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:26-28)

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Predestination holds no weight to the scope of these verses:

If you are arguing against "Predestination" in the context of Calvinism, it is not the purpose of this thread. As I said I am not interested in man-made doctrines, I am only interested in a view that would reconcile all the seemingly contradictory passages within the Bible, not trying to maintain a position by ignoring all Bible verses that speak against that particular position.

When I use the word "predestined", I am referring to the word in the context of the Bible, not in the context of Calvinism:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:4-14)

#1 John 3:15-17 implies that ANYONE can have this opportunity to come to Christ, but they have to choose to do so. Free will. Yes God knows the outcome in advance, but leaves it to us to choose anyhow.

I do not deny free will or salvation available to all, but how does this passage imply anyone can have opportunity to come to Christ?

"Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?"

#2 The false doctrine of predestination has long argued that God has an established, set blue-print for people. Their destiny is merely to follow the script that God has written for their lives. Men and women have no choice but to follow this God written road map. And, they argue, that road map may be filled with many pitfalls. This doctrine makes God guilty of everything that happens in this earth – including all of the evil. There were even some Jewish Rabbis that argued for what they called the "Yetzer Hara" – "the evil inclination." This belief was that God designed us to have an inclination toward evil, therefore it is His plan that we do evil. Or at least He must accept it when we commit evil because of this evil inclination that He placed within us. James 1:12-16 refutes such ideas.

I believe God has given people free will to make their own choice; otherwise Adam and Eve would not have had the choice to disobey God and ate the forbidden fruit.

#3 You mentioned Jacob for example, being "chosen" however, you forgot to notice Enoch. Enoch please God through his choices in life (obedience to Gods will by a persons free choice) obviously enough that God took him one day and Enoch did not know death (Hebrews 11:5; Genesis 5:22-24). Clearly Enoch was not shown to be hand picked as predestination supposes. He "walked with God" by his choice of free will and it please God.

When it pertains to salvation of people, it is the persons choice to follow God or not, even though God knows the outcome before hand (2 Peter 3:9).

God did choose people, but He didn't choose people randomly or out of a vacuum. He chose people according to His foreknowledge of the person, such as their nature, their heart, their character, etc:

But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” (1 Samuel 16:7)

I don't think there is any conflict between people making the choice to follow God and God choosing the people who would make the choice to follow Him according to his sovereignty.

#4 Speaking of 2 Peter 3:9, it implies directly that God waits as long as he can for a person to come to Him. God doesn't wish for ANYONE to perish and wait for people to come to their senses and obey. This verse too, shows free will.

I have never denied free will, but God does know who else have not yet come to repentance but will eventually repent.

#5 Hebrews 11:6 implies anyone that wishes to come to salvation. "He that cometh" is not hand picked people before time began. It states that anyone who chooses to believe in Jesus, as Lord and Savior, and obey His gospel will be saved. The only "hand picking" here is that IF you are a Christian, obeying Gods will, you are saved. IF not, you are not saved.

#6 Mark 16:15-16 not only states to preach to everyone, but also tells you that "he", meaning anyone, that believes and is baptized will be saved. Use me for example: If I chose to believe in Christ Jesus and get baptized, then by my free will that God allows us to have, I chose to do so and be saved. The very meaning of the words in context here shows free will, "He that believeth".

I believe that salvation is available to all, but not everyone would accept that gift and maintain their faith. Those do are the ones who will eventually be saved, and are the ones God has chosen to enter His kingdom.

In response to one of your statements though, a Christian that has fallen from grace CAN, if they so CHOSE, return to grace through confession/repentance toward God. If they CHOSE not to repent, then they are still fallen from grace and in a doomed state (1 John 1:6-10).

I would still quote what apostle John said:

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (1 John 2:19)

The point is, we have free will that God allowed for us to have, even if He knows the end result. People who believe in predestination take power away from God. God is the 3 Omni's as I like to put it, even with free will that He gave us, He can still know the outcome of our choices. Predestination takes that power away from God.

I don't see how predestination can take power away from God. God has the absolute sovereignty to choose to predestine or not predestine, to give us free will or not give us free will.

Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Romans 9:14-16)

Secondly, predestination is a hopeless doctrine. It doesn't allow hope for the world (John 3:16) and strips that promise away for those who are not chosen.

Thirdly, it calls God a liar, making His promises He gave to the world false.

And, although I could make a long list here, lastly, on top of making God a liar, it would state that He is the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) deceiving everyone with tricky words, giving false hope to the world.

It depends on what you mean by "predestination". I think everyone who believe and maintain their faith till the end will be saved, and are the ones who are chosen by God. How is that not allowing hope and make God a liar in that sense?

 

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From human's perspective, it seems like those who have abandoned their faith have once obtained the salvation but lost it because they don't endure to the end. But from God's perspective, these people's names have never been written in the Book of Life to start with, hence they have never obtained the salvation therefore cannot lose it.

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Well Jesus said in the following verse::

Revelation 3: KJV
{5} He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

If Jesus says He will not blot their names out of the book of life then that is also saing that Jesus can blot peoples names out of the Book of Life:::

Revelation 22: KJV
19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."