A Victory For AOC, Losing 25K Jobs By Getting AMAZON to pull out

[Ana the Ist]

The Republican Part had two parts until 2015, the establishment folks and the Tea Party. The tea Party backed folks who now seem moderate, including Rubio, Walker, Scott and Haley.

What were the 3 biggest differences between an "establishment conservative" and a Tea Party conservative?

I understand that the right rebrands every decade or so....but I can slap a new frame on an old painting and call it a new painting....but that would just be an attempt to distract you from the fact it's the exact same painting I've always shown you.

A third section of the Party has been there since the Civil Rights Act. Trump and Bannon brought them together. With the strong help of right wing evangelicals (80%), they took over the party. Congress has supported Trump at almost every turn. With the Senate at risk, McConnell may start to focus more saving the Senate, and less on saving trump.

I'm talking agendas....I'm talking platforms.

Tell me about these sweeping changes in the conservative sphere since the Reagan administration....I can think of a few politicians who have changed on this or that...but the party itself and the right in general has changed almost zilch.

What happens every 5-10 years is some new conservatives brand themselves as the "ones who will get it done" and the old conservatives as the "ones who failed/are weak/corrupt".

Then the new ones get elected and also fail to deliver. Fundamentally, that's all Trump is...and that's why he never really scared me politically. He's the same old conservative....but in a louder, less competent package, that's better at playing to the base.

 

[Belk]

Sounds like the same problem the GOP has only on the Right.

While I dislike Trump it is hard to argue that he has anything but a solid hold on the party voters. I don't see these as being parallel.

 

[Belk]

I honestly don't think Trump's voters are the solid majority of Republicans. But even if they are it is hard to see that Trump's style of governance has a lifespan of more than a couple years. I think that's why so many GOP stalwarts are walking away from their seats (like Paul Ryan). I think they are just going to wait it out to see how things go after Trump is gone and then come back.

I totally agree that this unity will die with Trump, but for now it is an amazing feat. While the republican base has shrunk as those who cannot stomach Trump have left it is by no means shrunk by a large percentage.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Old-line Conservatives (actual fiscal conservatives with a view toward the long-term health of the party) vs Far Right Trumpists.

(Although if you'd asked me a few years back I would have said the Tea Party but they seem to be kind of invisible now...possibly rolled up more into the Trump end of the spectrum: low information, poorly grasped American history etc.

Fiscal conservatives and the Tea Party....ok.

Where were they split on these issues.

Abortion
Gun Control
Religious "freedom"
Defense/national security
Small government vs Big government
American exceptionalism

Because I understand why you think there's a difference....one calls himself a "fiscal conservative" the other says he's for "smaller government"....but they mean the same thing and both raise the debt and increase government size. They both will always fail to deliver on these things....and if you point it out, they'll tout their record on gun control and abortion.

I don't think most Republicans are as fond of Trump's behaviors. I don't think that most are as comfortable with his flirtation with openly racist alt-right folks.

I personally think the mainline GOP power-players (the folks who might have more pull than any given random Republican voter) realize Trump will do more harm than good in the long haul to the GOP brand.

I think the reason you see Paul Ryan running away ISN'T because he's grown tired of legislating...he's going to mark time until Trump is past and he can come back with a more nuanced (but still corrosive) brand of conservatism that can actually do some serious damage to progressive causes.

Trump is a big giant bull charging through the china shop. He's shown no actual game plan and even less understanding of the ins and outs of the system let alone government. That won't suit the GOP in the long term.

I don't think most conservatives understand why a dozen more qualified candidates were soundly rejected and he was endorsed. Facts don't matter like they used to....social media has changed that. Opinions matter now, and opinions only need to be popular...not factually correct.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I totally agree that this unity will die with Trump, but for now it is an amazing feat. While the republican base has shrunk as those who cannot stomach Trump have left it is by no means shrunk by a large percentage.

Because the next candidate for the right will be afraid to take the same approach as Trump? I wish I could be that optimistic.

I think the new crop will do what Trump did, only better. I think it's going to look different, sound smarter, but with the exact same message.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I think you're missing the big picture.

Elected officials are elected to represent you...and your interests. If, instead, they represent the interests of a very wealthy few....then it no longer matters if you elected them. They don't represent you. They are not your elected officials.

It's hard for me to conclude anything other than the government created for us so long ago has completely failed.

File under... W for "What else is new?" as well as "What do we do about it?"

 

[Ana the Ist]

File under... W for "What else is new?" as well as "What do we do about it?"

Well....I see two general possibilities...one unlikely and optimistic and the other pessimistic and likely.

Would you like to hear them both? Or one?

 

[Belk]

Because the next candidate for the right will be afraid to take the same approach as Trump? I wish I could be that optimistic.

I think the new crop will do what Trump did, only better. I think it's going to look different, sound smarter, but with the exact same message.

I disagree. I think the coalition that Trump managed to cobble together was a one time thing and it was all he could do to squeak through a win. This looks to me more like following a demagogue then a stable political platform.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I disagree. I think the coalition that Trump managed to cobble together was a one time thing and it was all he could do to squeak through a win. This looks to me more like following a demagogue then a stable political platform.

I don't think you're seeing the big picture...all these rallies and "allyship" have somewhat masked just how bad things are on the left.

Think about it this way....

Let's say I'm White Male Conservative...my opponent is Democratic female of any persuasion, racial identity, centrist or far left. We have a debate. I say....

"My opponent is a radical Marxist who wants massive racial injustice on an economic scale! She wants to take money from hardworking people and give it to others based on the color of their skin! She calls it reparations...I call it racist!"

Does it matter if she ever said that? No....of course not...definitely not to my side. The left has been saying such things loudly enough that my side will buy it no matter what.

What's worse though, is I've forced the issue for her...she might be able to duck it once or twice, but not the whole campaign. She'll have to say where she stands.

As it is....this is an internally dividing issue for Democrats. Last I checked, something like 50% of liberals supported it, maybe 35% of registered Democrats and if I were to make a guess....maybe 10-15% of the entire left spectrum is going to be lost to her no matter how she answers. It's probably a big enough deal for another 10-15% to at least reconsider their support for her.

The left simply doesn't agree as much as their most vocal section believes it does. I don't really even need a platform....I just keep forcing her to state her position on these internally divisive issues and make vague promises to my base.

I don't think the left has quite grasped the problems they have. I don't think they realize how far apart they are....and all the shaming each other in the world won't change that. You may hear almost no voices on the left actively saying they absolutely will not vote for a pro-reparations candidate...and why would they? Their liberal friends will shame them for it. That won't matter though a bit once it's time to vote.

 

[Belk]

I don't think you're seeing the big picture...all these rallies and "allyship" have somewhat masked just how bad things are on the left.

Think about it this way....

Let's say I'm White Male Conservative...my opponent is Democratic female of any persuasion, racial identity, centrist or far left. We have a debate. I say....

"My opponent is a radical Marxist who wants massive racial injustice on an economic scale! She wants to take money from hardworking people and give it to others based on the color of their skin! She calls it reparations...I call it racist!"

Does it matter if she ever said that? No....of course not...definitely not to my side. The left has been saying such things loudly enough that my side will buy it no matter what.

What's worse though, is I've forced the issue for her...she might be able to duck it once or twice, but not the whole campaign. She'll have to say where she stands.

As it is....this is an internally dividing issue for Democrats. Last I checked, something like 50% of liberals supported it, maybe 35% of registered Democrats and if I were to make a guess....maybe 10-15% of the entire left spectrum is going to be lost to her no matter how she answers. It's probably a big enough deal for another 10-15% to at least reconsider their support for her.

The left simply doesn't agree as much as their most vocal section believes it does. I don't really even need a platform....I just keep forcing her to state her position on these internally divisive issues and make vague promises to my base.

I don't think the left has quite grasped the problems they have. I don't think they realize how far apart they are....and all the shaming each other in the world won't change that. You may hear almost no voices on the left actively saying they absolutely will not vote for a pro-reparations candidate...and why would they? Their liberal friends will shame them for it. That won't matter though a bit once it's time to vote.

Ah, I see what you are saying. You are not talking about whom Trump was targeting but the manner in which he attacked his opponents. It is an interesting take, to be sure. I don't know how effective it will be. It seems some politicians tried the same sort of thing in the midterm to little effect but that does not mean others might not use the technique with the same panache that Trump has.

I do admit democrats have their usual issue of being divided and fractious with one another. The Dem field is already overloaded and I worry it will hurt them with so much in fighting. No group has managed to pull defeat from the jaws of victory quite so many times. It will certainly be interesting to watch. Especially as we continue to ignore or paper over the real issues we face as a nation.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ah, I see what you are saying. You are not talking about whom Trump was targeting but the manner in which he attacked his opponents. It is an interesting take, to be sure. I don't know how effective it will be. It seems some politicians tried the same sort of thing in the midterm to little effect but that does not mean others might not use the technique with the same panache that Trump has.

I do admit democrats have their usual issue of being divided and fractious with one another. The Dem field is already overloaded and I worry it will hurt them with so much in fighting. No group has managed to pull defeat from the jaws of victory quite so many times. It will certainly be interesting to watch. Especially as we continue to ignore or paper over the real issues we face as a nation.

It's not the same issue at a local level. A Democrat in California isn't the same as a Democrat in Ohio. Those candidates generally have some unity in their base.

If the reparations issue isn't one you consider divisive....how big do you think the split is on being "Pro-israeli" vs "Pro-palestinian"? Maybe I won't use the term "open borders"....but if I describe allowing illegals to stay vs deportation....the left is split down the middle. Trans Women are "Women"....you think the left is totally sold on that? How about Free speech vs Outlawing hate speech....

This is a problem inherent in identity politics. You can support each other on a march or rally all day long....but you can't both vote your own interests. The hard left is dug in deep on a lot of this stuff....where they proudly refuse to even discuss these issues.
The weird thing is that they did it to themselves...it required no sabotage from outside.

 

[USincognito]

While that's true to some degree about the Seattle housing, people who owned their homes when Amazon was relatively small around here certainly have benefited from the skyrocketing housing prices when they go to sell. So, the current NYC homeowners would not received that benefit of increased demand/values for their houses.

Assuming they can continue to pay the property tax before that time comes.

 

[mark46]

I apologize. I'm just not up to explaining the difference between Reagan conservatives and the party of trump.

What were the 3 biggest differences between an "establishment conservative" and a Tea Party conservative?

I understand that the right rebrands every decade or so....but I can slap a new frame on an old painting and call it a new painting....but that would just be an attempt to distract you from the fact it's the exact same painting I've always shown you.



I'm talking agendas....I'm talking platforms.

Tell me about these sweeping changes in the conservative sphere since the Reagan administration....I can think of a few politicians who have changed on this or that...but the party itself and the right in general has changed almost zilch.

What happens every 5-10 years is some new conservatives brand themselves as the "ones who will get it done" and the old conservatives as the "ones who failed/are weak/corrupt".

Then the new ones get elected and also fail to deliver. Fundamentally, that's all Trump is...and that's why he never really scared me politically. He's the same old conservative....but in a louder, less competent package, that's better at playing to the base.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

And here's another article which has something to say. I won't link to it, because it's from the comedy website Cracked.com, but it makes some good points:

(NOTE: Mere hours before this article was set to publish, Amazon cancelled their plans for Queens. They fear Cracked's invective and wrath, which is not unlike that of the Old Testament God. Here are the details of their machinations regardless.)

You may remember the real-life dystopian reality show that was Amazon making various cities beg for the presence of their new corporate headquarters, and the Queens neighborhood of Long Island City was one of two lucky winners. In exchange for enough tax breaks to fund most island nations, Amazon will bless the locality with 25,000 much-revered "jobs."

That's a good way to inject a bunch of people who will spend money and pretend to care about the Mets into New York City. But New York City, as dozens of sitcoms have told you, is an expensive place to live. Long Island City in particular is seeing a massive increase in both housing developments (people are pouring into the area faster than any other community in NYC) and income disparity. One apartment within five blocks of the new HQ has a median household income of $15,000. Go five blocks in a different direction and it's $133,000.

HQ2 is already wiping out earlier plans to build 1,500 units of affordable housing, and a sudden spike in local salaries could be devastating to lower- and middle-class families. What happens when rent inflates and grocery stores realize that they can quadruple the price of bread by telling tech bros it contains the "ancient grains" that fueled the programmers of old? There's a serious concern that the immigrants and people of color who made Queens hip will now be priced out of their own neighborhood.


There are also questions about schooling and transportation. Queens' high schools are at 117 percent capacity, and Long Island City's only elementary school is at 135 percent, but Amazon workers will have to cram their kids in somewhere. More schools are coming, but it's unclear whether they will provide anywhere close to enough seats. 25,000 new workers would also strain NYC's already oft-delayed and overcrowded subway system, and while we're sure that will inspire a new wave of hilarious open mic night observations, it will also keep people from getting where they need to be.

So in sum, a lot of people are going to show up and be given tons of money to make things more inconvenient. Amazon has talked about a vague commitment to sustainable development, job training programs, transit reform, and other long-term growth plans, and if those all work out, it could legitimately be great for Queens. But it's sort of like letting a dozen people come live with you rent-free because they've promised to help renovate your house one day. Maybe they eventually will, and that would be awesome, but will you even still be able to afford to live there when the time comes?

 

[straykat]

Because the next candidate for the right will be afraid to take the same approach as Trump? I wish I could be that optimistic.

I think the new crop will do what Trump did, only better. I think it's going to look different, sound smarter, but with the exact same message.

Those people would more than likely resemble Democrats of the old days. Blue Dog types maybe? Off the top of my head Trump wants to reimplement Glass-Steagall (funnily), is generally anti-war/interventionist despite being bellicose and theatric, rebuild infrastructure, offer cheaper prescription meds/medical care access for all (he just wants to fix Obamacare apparently.. not destroy the end goal), but the main polarizing thing that separates him from any current Democrat now is a hard push on social values to the right (especially pertaining to LGBT acceptance in all avenues of society and stricter views or even elimination of abortion). The latter alone is enough to keep many conservatives on his side as well, when they were traditionally followers of warmongering Neocons (or the Cold War rhetoric before) in the past.

edit: On the original topic, I'm not a fan of Amazon actually, and hate the bleak/less diverse picture of commerce that has come from feeding this giant. So I'm curious on how this will work out.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Those people would more than likely resemble Democrats of the old days. Blue Dog types maybe? Off the top of my head Trump wants to reimplement Glass-Steagall (funnily), is generally anti-war/interventionist despite being bellicose and theatric, rebuild infrastructure, offer cheaper prescription meds/medical care access for all (he just wants to fix Obamacare apparently.. not destroy the end goal), but the main polarizing thing that separates him from any current Democrat now is a hard push on social values to the right (especially pertaining to LGBT acceptance in all avenues of society and stricter views or even elimination of abortion). The latter alone is enough to keep many conservatives on his side as well, when they were traditionally followers of warmongering Neocons (or the Cold War rhetoric before) in the past.

I think you're mischaracterising Trump. It's a mistake to believe that what he says he wants is what he actually wants. His views over the years have shifted drastically, so what we need to do is look at what he really wants, underneath the surface.
What Trump really wants, I believe, is to take revenge on those who humiliated him, win any fights he gets in to, protect himself from danger (impeachment and possibly jail, at the moment) and make money. He wants to be successful, and he wants to be liked.

 

[straykat]

I think you're mischaracterising Trump. It's a mistake to believe that what he says he wants is what he actually wants. His views over the years have shifted drastically, so what we need to do is look at what he really wants, underneath the surface.
What Trump really wants, I believe, is to take revenge on those who humiliated him, win any fights he gets in to, protect himself from danger (impeachment and possibly jail, at the moment) and make money. He wants to be successful, and he wants to be liked.

I doubt he's going to get impeached or is even afraid of it. Russia-Collusion is a silly meme. But I have to hand it to Clinton/Podesta for throwing it out there. They don't get enough credit for their memes. They were also the original ones responsible (which is now blamed on Trump) for the meme that Obama wasn't born in the US. This was from Clinton's camp during the 2008 primaries. And it's still alive and kicking.

 

[Nithavela]

I always found the bidding war for amazon jobs ridiculous. They'd just threaten to move away once the tax incentives run out.

 

[Nithavela]

So spend the $3B on the poor. Opps! There is no $3B. The $3B is from lowering taxes own Amazon's sales that won't happen.z

Really? Amazon is going out of buisness?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Those people would more than likely resemble Democrats of the old days. Blue Dog types maybe?

You think?

Off the top of my head Trump wants to reimplement Glass-Steagall (funnily), is generally anti-war/interventionist despite being bellicose and theatric, rebuild infrastructure, offer cheaper prescription meds/medical care access for all (he just wants to fix Obamacare apparently.. not destroy the end goal),

Let's pretend that's true...not maybe, but that it is true...

How would you know? Because he told you so? It's not as if holds to his words much...I remember chants of "lock her up" and talk about "the best and brightest".

So if we can't trust his word on these things...how do we know they're true? His actions?

but the main polarizing thing that separates him from any current Democrat now is a hard push on social values to the right (especially pertaining to LGBT acceptance in all avenues of society and stricter views or even elimination of abortion).

I don't know if that's the main thing that separates him from Democrats.

The latter alone is enough to keep many conservatives on his side as well, when they were traditionally followers of warmongering Neocons (or the Cold War rhetoric before) in the past.

Yeah and that's the big problem with a lot of conservatives. There are politicians who have pushed against abortion....pretty hard. I don't think enough really care as much as they claim. That or they've seen how it works out.

They won't say that though....because people won't change their minds just because someone tells them the truth. They'll just vote for someone who tells them what they want to hear....and it happens to the left too.

In that way, it's not all the politician's fault for lying.

edit: On the original topic, I'm not a fan of Amazon actually, and hate the bleak/less diverse picture of commerce that has come from feeding this giant. So I'm curious on how this will work out.

Yeah, I think they stink for reasons not really mentioned in the article.