A very basic question about the pope

[JonF]

I would like to start this thread by saying I am protestant and in no way is this a loaded question. I just really would like to know.

What role exactly does the pope play? I’ve heard my fellow protestants say Catholics claim everything from he is the mouth piece of God, to what he says is divinely inspired as the bible.

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PLEASE NOTE: This is a thread that was started in GT and moved to OBOB starting on Post #40. Since this thread was started in GT (where debate from non-Catholics is allowed) there will be posts before #40 that involve debate.​

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[Michie]

Just go to the source for these questions.

Here you go-
CHURCH & PAPACY




Tracts:

Apostolic Succession (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 1 (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 2 (Fathers*)
Origins of Peter as Pope (Fathers*)
Papal Infallibility
Peter and the Papacy
Peter the Rock
Peter's Primacy (Fathers*)
Peter's Roman Residency (Fathers*)
Peter's Successors (Fathers*)
Was Peter in Rome?

http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

​

 

[JimfromOhio]

I would like to start this thread by saying I am protestant and in no way is this a loaded question. I just really would like to know.

What role exactly does the pope play? I’ve heard my fellow protestants say Catholics claim everything from he is the mouth piece of God, to what he says is divinely inspired as the bible.

Just watch.... supporters of Pope will have a long list.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. As a bishop, he is a leader of the Church and part of the teaching and guiding authority. He is also the Patriarch of the West, the head of the Roman church. He is also the Supreme Pontiff, the administrative and spiritual head of the entire Church on earth. On a lesser political matter he happens to be the monarch of the Vatican City in more recent times.

The Pope can call an ecumenical council, he chooses cardinals, he is the ultimate earthly authority in the Church. He is the supreme judge of Church laws and can alter canon law as he pleases.

The Pope's words are not by any means all directly from God. We do believe, however, that if a pope speaks officially and publicly on a matter of faith or morals in his role as the successor of Saint Peter and head of the Church, and what he says is to be held by all Catholics, then he cannot err because the Holy Spirit will not allow him to. Since a great deal of what the Pope teaches is either not binding on all Catholics because it is partially an opinion or view, this is rarely believed to have been enacted. Furthermore, everything that most popes say, if not an opinion, is usually already an official teaching of the Church, so Catholics believe it anyway.

We do not place the Pope's declarations, even the infallible ones, on the same level as Scripture. They are indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit, and inerrant, but Scripture is utterly unique in Catholic thought. It is breathed by the Holy Spirit and such that it is true in an incredibly profound way...every word is sacred. No-one would read through a Pope's encyclical in quite the same way as he would the Bible.

He's basically like the King in a monarchy. Much of his authorities are of course deferred to other people, but if he wishes he can have the final say.

Some of the Pope's titles reflect his role and position...he is the Supreme Pontiff, the Successor of Saint Peter and the Vicar (representative) of Christ.

I hope that helps a little and I wasn't just telling you things you already knew.

 

[Michie]

Just watch.... supporters of Pope will have a long list.

A long list from the horse's mouth.

You want to know about something, you go to the source.

He said it was not a loaded question so I provided information. I assume he is not looking for debate but info.

You want to know about genuine dollar bills...you do not go to a counterfeiter.

 

[Tonks]

Actually, BXVI deep-sixed the title "Patriarch of the West" just recently.

 

[JonF]

From what I read in michie articles I have two new questions.

What happens if a new pope and an old pope officially say different things?

What role exactly do bishops play? I know they are different than protestant pastors, but I’m not really clear on how.

but that helps robbie, thanks

 

[JonF]

A long list from the horse's mouth.

You want to know about something, you go to the source.

He said it was not a loaded question so I provided information. I assume he is not looking for debate but info.

You want to know about genuine dollar bills...you do not go to a counterfeiter.

still got 3 or 4 left to read

 

[Michie]

I'll let Robbie take over on this one.

I'm multi-tasking here & trying to do too many things at once.

I'm sure Robbie is more knowledgable anyway.

I have not studied the issue with any real depth yet.

God bless you Jon.
Michie

 

[Michie]

still got 3 or 4 left to read

No problem Jon.

 

[Michie]

Oh good grief. Completely off the mark here. This is about the pope & Church history.

Nothing to do with those extreme examples you mentioned.

I think the OP made it clear he was looking for info. Not debate.

sheesh.

 

[Tonks]

From what I read in michie articles I have two new questions.

What happens if a new pope and an old pope officially say different things?

Depends. Contrary to what some may believe when it comes to dogmatic and / or faith & morals issues the are specifically designed to not be contradictory. If the Pope is merely speaking as a theologian - it is mostly in the guise of pastoral direction. For example, the new Pope's first encyclical (deus caritas est) was a treatise on love (detailing the difference between eros and agape and their relationship with the teachings of Christ). There was nothing particularly dogmatic about it. The Pope is a sinner just like the rest of us - indeed, history is littered with many a pope that was quite a poor shepherd for his flock.

What role exactly do bishops play? I know they are different than protestant pastors, but I’m not really clear on how

They are the pastor of a diocese (or archdiocese if the area is big enough). As we all know, the RCC does have a hierarchy. They manage personnel decisions to some degree within the diocese, have a hand in managing Catholic schools and charities, deal with implementing directives from Rome, and serve in the role of a general parish priest.

 

[JonF]

If I wanted to go and learn about the devil, or Marxism one of the things I would do is go to a primary source that honestly address what they believe if possible.

For the devil I would what the bible has to say.
For Marxism I would read what was written by Marx.
If I wanted to learn about Nazism I would need to see what the nazis claim. I don’t know if I would go as far as to read Mein Kampf, but I probably would read a synopsis of it.

Seeings how Catholics aren't devils, commies, or nazis i think it's perfectly acceptable just to consult them

It’s one thing to hear what people who disagree with a belief system have to say about it, but it’s another to listen to what they say they believe.

 

[Michie]

Actually, my questions are about the logic you used as a preface for your statements.

Actually, I don't like your instant combative attitude in this thread in light of the OP.

I'm not biting.

I don't have a dog in your fights.

Don't like my logic?

*shrug*

No skin off my back.

You want to learn about anything as far as Church teachings...you go to the source.

Wanna learn medicine?

Go to medical school.

Simple.

Way it works whether you like the logic or not.

 

[Michie]

If I wanted to go and learn about the devil, or Marxism one of the things I would do is go to a primary source that honestly address what they believe if possible.

For the devil I would what the bible has to say.
For Marxism I would read what was written by Marx.
If I wanted to learn about Nazism I would need to see what the nazis claim. I don’t know if I would go as far as to read Mein Kampf, but I probably would read a synopsis of it.

Seeings how Catholics aren't devils, commies, or nazis i think it's perfectly acceptable just to consult them

It’s one thing to hear what people who disagree with a belief system have to say about it, but it’s another to listen to what they say they believe.

Thank you Jon.

God bless you,
Michie

 

[JonF]

Depends. Contrary to what some may believe when it comes to dogmatic and / or faith & morals issues the are specifically designed to not be contradictory. If the Pope is merely speaking as a theologian - it is mostly in the guise of pastoral direction. For example, the new Pope's first encyclical (deus caritas est) was a treatise on love (detailing the difference between eros and agape and their relationship with the teachings of Christ). There was nothing particularly dogmatic about it. The Pope is a sinner just like the rest of us - indeed, history is littered with many a pope that was quite a poor shepherd for his flock.



They are the pastor of a diocese (or archdiocese if the area is big enough). As we all know, the RCC does have a hierarchy. They manage personnel decisions to some degree within the diocese, have a hand in managing Catholic schools and charities, deal with implementing directives from Rome, and serve in the role of a general parish priest.

Ok, let me check and make sure I’m right in what I got so far. The pope is a sinner like the rest of humanity. He gets divine inspiration, but not everything he says is infallible, just when he is acting on behalf of God?

Bishops are like pastors+. Since the Catholic church is more organized than protestant ones, the bishops act in pastoral and administrative roles.

 

[Michie]

Ok, let me check and make sure I’m right in what I got so far. The pope is a sinner like the rest of humanity. He gets divine inspiration, but not everything he says is infallible, just when he is acting on behalf of God?

Bishops are like pastors+. Since the Catholic church is more organized than protestant ones, the bishops act in pastoral and administrative roles.

Correct.

I'm off to do other things..

I'll be back later.

Nice *meeting* you Jon.

 

[JonF]

nice meeting you too, and thanks

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

If I wanted to go and learn about the devil, or Marxism one of the things I would do is go to a primary source that honestly address what they believe if possible.

I agree, which is where the primary sources of Roman Catholic dogmatic teaching is important, and can be time consuming.

An individual Roman Catholic, or even groups of Roman Catholics can tell you what they believe personally, but as is often the case, that can be in contradiction to the dogmatic teachings of the Roman Catholic Magesterium, which is considered to be infallible, through the centuries.

 

[JonF]

I agree, which is where the primary sources of Roman Catholic dogmatic teaching is important, and can be time consuming.

An individual Roman Catholic, or even groups of Roman Catholics can tell you what they believe personally, but as is often the case, that can be in contradiction to the dogmatic teachings of the Roman Catholic Magesterium, which is considered to be infallible, through the centuries.

And not Lenin, or Trotsky, or Stalin, or Mao?

Mein Kampf would give you a lot of insight into the twisted mind of ol' Adolf, and give a historical context for what transpired after.

There is no insinuation that RCs are any of that. Those examples are hyperbolic in testing the logic presented earlier.

I agree, but I would advise that you also consult and study the dogmatic teachings of the Magesterium since it is infallible according to RC dogma.

Primary sources is exactly what I got in the first response post. Then I got an explanation. This is exactly what I was looking for. I planed on seeing what several catholics to get a general feel for their beliefs before I researched their formal theology. Michie saved me the trouble and just gave me links to it.

Also I think it was a bit rude the way you made your point in light of the aim of this discussion. Your objection wasn’t even valid. She wasn’t giving a deductive argument, she was arguing via analogy.

It’s not like I’m about to convert to Catholicism or anything, and I don’t think any of the Catholics in this thread aim is to convert me.

P.S. this whole thread started because several people whom I know fairly well in my church feel that Catholics aren’t Christians (please don’t turn this thread into a discussion about this), to which I disagreed. There are a couple other things I would like to ask but they aren’t relevant to the pope, would you prefer that I start a new thread, or can I just ask them here?