A Verdict in search of Evidence: (360 words)

Dave L

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No, that is a farce. I can show you in the NT where as many as 1/4 of all Jews in Jerusalem believed he was messiah. And, heck... Christianity in the first century was a Jewish sect and movement. So to call them blind is to undermine the entire NT. And be careful brother, God entrusted those blind bats with His word, right? (Romans 3:2) I sent you a message, had to break the info into 2 parts due to size. Blessings.
We are not speaking about believers in Christ. We are speaking about those who knew what the OT said better than most but didn't know what it meant.
 
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Ken Rank

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We are not speaking about believers in Christ. We are speaking about those who knew what the OT said better than most but didn't know what it meant.
Which ones? Name names or stop generalizing and repeating Christian anti-Semtitic doctrine! Christianity was a Jewish movement in the first century. Acts 21:20 is clear that many thousands of Jews believed and continued to obey. The word for many thousands is murias, which is the word for 10,000... and it is in plural form making it "at least" 20,000. So that many Jews in Jerusalem believed he was messiah and ALL WITHOUT A NEW TESTAMENT. Paul hadn't written books yet Dave and when he did they were sent OUTSIDE of Judea.

Gotta run... this isn't the topic of your thread and this is going down a bad path. Shalom!
 
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Dave L

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Which ones? Name names or stop generalizing and repeating Christian anti-Semtitic doctrine! Christianity was a Jewish movement in the first century. Acts 21:20 is clear that many thousands of Jews believed and continued to obey. The word for many thousands is murias, which is the word for 10,000... and it is in plural form making it "at least" 20,000. So that many Jews in Jerusalem believed he was messiah and ALL WITHOUT A NEW TESTAMENT. Paul hadn't written books yet Dave and when he did they were sent OUTSIDE of Judea.

Gotta run... this isn't the topic of your thread and this is going down a bad path. Shalom!
Simply put. Jesus Is Israel along with those who believe in him. Today's Jews and Israel are gentiles who practice Jewish customs. Having been removed from Israel because of their unbelief. God will reattach any who accept Christ (Romans 11).
 
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Dale

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Millions are made each year in Dispensational books and movies. This is not true of any other persuasion.



A neighbor, an elderly woman and a Methodist, told me that she had seen one of the Left Behind movies. "It's science fiction," she said.

One of the recurring criticisms of the whole End Times Rapture/Dispensational movement of Tim LaHaye & Left Behind and othe predecessors & competitors is that it is more political than spiritual. I would have to agree that there is much truth to this criticism. I have seen the Antichrist pictured as a silhouette of Lenin. Not Hitler but Lenin. The leftists are the problem.
 
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Ken Rank

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Simply put. Jesus Is Israel along with those who believe in him. Today's Jews and Israel are gentiles who practice Jewish customs. Having been removed from Israel because of their unbelief. God will reattach any who accept Christ (Romans 11).
Romans 9 (in particular verses 20 through 27) has Paul quoting Hosea and Isaiah who are very clearly prophesying about the Northern Kingdom, Israel (as opposed to the Southern Kingdom, Judah... the Jews) and thus that doesn't change when he gets to chapter 11. It's the same letter, he is talking about the same people..... but you won't receive this so I will stop writing and unwatch the thread. Be well.
 
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Dale

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You said "Most of what people believe...."

Do we really think that very many Christians give any thought to all of that very literal end-times imagery and calculating?


Where I live many churches are teaching Rapture. Even in churches where the pastor doesn't teach Rapture, there are individuals who believe in it.

I have written letters to the editor criticizing the notion of Rapture (separate from the Second Coming) and got quite a bit of flak over it. One person told me that I wasn't a Christian, and one of those who argued for a Rapture is a retired missionary. They tell me that you have to separate the Second Coming into two parts, the Rapture and the Second Coming & Millennium or Second Coming & Final Judgment. That's where we disagree, the Second Coming is indivisible.

What most disturbs me about the teaching of Rapture in local churches is that to most of the people who believe in it, it doesn't seem to require evidence. They weren't told that this is some controversial new idea. They were told that Christians believe it. That is exactly what it says in one of the Left Behind movies that I have seen: "All Christians believe in it." No they don't.
 
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Dave L

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Romans 9 (in particular verses 20 through 27) has Paul quoting Hosea and Isaiah who are very clearly prophesying about the Northern Kingdom, Israel (as opposed to the Southern Kingdom, Judah... the Jews) and thus that doesn't change when he gets to chapter 11. It's the same letter, he is talking about the same people..... but you won't receive this so I will stop writing and unwatch the thread. Be well.
If the broken off unbelievers are reattached through faith in Christ, doesn't that make Jesus and believers Israel? (Romans 11)??
 
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ItIsFinished!

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Where I live many churches are teaching Rapture. Even in churches where the pastor doesn't teach Rapture, there are individuals who believe in it.

I have written letters to the editor criticizing the notion of Rapture (separate from the Second Coming) and got quite a bit of flak over it. One person told me that I wasn't a Christian, and one of those who argued for a Rapture is a retired missionary. They tell me that you have to separate the Second Coming into two parts, the Rapture and the Second Coming & Millennium or Second Coming & Final Judgment. That's where we disagree, the Second Coming is indivisible.

What most disturbs me about the teaching of Rapture in local churches is that to most of the people who believe in it, it doesn't seem to require evidence. They weren't told that this is some controversial new idea. They were told that Christians believe it. That is exactly what it says in one of the Left Behind movies that I have seen: "All Christians believe in it." No they don't.
The day of The Lord and the Second Coming are two strikingly different events.
The day of The Lord is the end of the Church Age.
All in Christ that have died since Pentacost will resurrect and meet The Lord in the air as well as all present believers. This will mark the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. Halfway through( 3 and a half years) begins the Great Tribulation where the lawless one (Antichrist) is revealed. During this time the Abomination of Desolation will happened as well as the implementation of "the mark".
None of this has happened yet.
The Second Coming occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation.
 
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Dale

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The day of The Lord and the Second Coming are two strikingly different events.
The day of The Lord is the end of the Church Age.
All in Christ that have died since Pentacost will resurrect and meet The Lord in the air as well as all present believers. This will mark the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. Halfway through( 3 and a half years) begins the Great Tribulation where the lawless one (Antichrist) is revealed. During this time the Abomination of Desolation will happened as well as the implementation of "the mark".
None of this has happened yet.
The Second Coming occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation.


Why would I believe that the "Church Age" is something that will come to an end? Why would God end it? Jesus said, wherever two or more are gathered in my name there am I among them. That is a church, that's God's promise and it doesn't have an expiration date.

There is nothing in the Bible about God removing Christians from a world where political events are still taking place.
 
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Why would I believe that the "Church Age" is something that will come to an end? Why would God end it? Jesus said, wherever two or more are gathered in my name there am I among them. That is a church, that's God's promise and it doesn't have an expiration date.

There is nothing in the Bible about God removing Christians from a world where political events are still taking place.
Never said the Church had an expiration date.
I said at The Day of The Lord the Church will be removed.
And it will.
 
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Ken Rank

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If the broken off unbelievers are reattached through faith in Christ, doesn't that make Jesus and believers Israel? (Romans 11)??
No, Paul was specifically quoting the words of prophets were specifically speaking about the Northern Kingdom in exile. By the way, they became known as the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Adds some context to messiah saying, "I have not been sent BUT to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
 
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Dave L

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No, Paul was specifically quoting the words of prophets were specifically speaking about the Northern Kingdom in exile. By the way, they became known as the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Adds some context to messiah saying, "I have not been sent BUT to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
There remained no physical Judah or Israel after Christ abolished circumcision on the cross. Any unbelievers died off within that generation leaving only spiritual Israel in Christ intact.
 
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Ken Rank

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There remained no physical Judah or Israel after Christ abolished circumcision on the cross. Any unbelievers died off within that generation leaving only spiritual Israel in Christ intact.
Oh, so Jesus isn't coming back as the Lion of the Tribe of Jewdah. Somebody better tell him! :)
 
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Dave L

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Oh, so Jesus isn't coming back as the Lion of the Tribe of Jewdah. Somebody better tell him! :)
Only spiritual Israel/Judah, united in Christ who was both, remained after Christ abolished circumcision on the cross.
 
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Ken Rank

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Only spiritual Israel/Judah, united in Christ who was both, remained after Christ abolished circumcision on the cross.
Dave, with all due respect. This is what is wrong with the church. When we come across something we don't have an answer for, we spiritualize it. I don't want to talk to you about this anymore, but I am going to leave you with this thought....

Yeshua walked with his disciples all day and night for at least 3 years. They knew him, they modeled him, they were approved by him... and yet they still didn't understand him, at least, some things. After he resurrected and just before he ascended, they asked him:

Acts 1:6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

Yeshua didn't reply with an answer like you just gave, he replied by reminding them it isn't up to them to know the times and seasons. You cry out for an all spiritual affair... he was speaking of a literal kingdom where he would reign as king.

I don't care if you accept that or not... but that's how I read it. Don't feel the need to correct me, Dave... this has gone on long enough today. :)

You should really read the article on the feasts I sent you... you will see him in ways you haven't before, that I can promise you.

Blessings.
Ken
 
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Ken Rank

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The Church does not replace Israel.
No, it doesn't... but it is a part of Israel. Otherwise... we're in trouble. Seriously... there is no covenant made with gentiles... Jer. 31 and Heb 8 is very clear that the new covenant is made with Judah and Israel. And when the New Jerusalem comes down... there is no gate for gentiles... just a gate for each of the 12 tribes. So either we are part... just like the foreigners who came out of Egypt with Israel became part... or we're out of luck...errr.... out of covenant.
 
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Dave L

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Dave, with all due respect. This is what is wrong with the church. When we come across something we don't have an answer for, we spiritualize it. I don't want to talk to you about this anymore, but I am going to leave you with this thought....

Yeshua walked with his disciples all day and night for at least 3 years. They knew him, they modeled him, they were approved by him... and yet they still didn't understand him, at least, some things. After he resurrected and just before he ascended, they asked him:

Acts 1:6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

Yeshua didn't reply with an answer like you just gave, he replied by reminding them it isn't up to them to know the times and seasons. You cry out for an all spiritual affair... he was speaking of a literal kingdom where he would reign as king.

I don't care if you accept that or not... but that's how I read it. Don't feel the need to correct me, Dave... this has gone on long enough today. :)

You should really read the article on the feasts I sent you... you will see him in ways you haven't before, that I can promise you.

Blessings.
Ken
This is why we need to question all we've been indoctrinated with. It took years to undo the damage in some cases. And I'm not interested in going back to have another listen.
 
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Ken Rank

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This is why we need to question all we've been indoctrinated with. It took years to undo the damage in some cases. And I'm not interested in going back to have another listen.
You're affirming what I said brother. You believe what you believe and are not open to correction or further learning. That's fine...but it leaves one issue that you can't reconcile in your current state. Some things have been sealed, they require revelation... and if when they are revealed, they stand outside of what you now accept as "truth," then you will not be open to hearing them even if the source they come from is God.
 
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