A Torah Observant Perspective on Paul on the Law

klutedavid

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Either the are correct and incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and Paul was only speaking against the incorrect reasons, or according to Galatians 5:2, Christ is no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US and Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised (Acts 16:3).
If Paul prohibited circumcision of the Gentiles then Paul is certainly not obedient to the Torah.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while circumcised?
He is not to be circumcised.

There is no question at all that Paul was not Torah obedient.

Peter also ignored the priesthood derived from Aaron contradicting the Torah.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession...
 
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klutedavid

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Whenever someone was crucified, the people would write out a sign that listed the charges that were against them and nail it to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed (Matthew 27:37). This served as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of God's law being nailed to the cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of God's laws, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160).
The law concerning circumcision was annulled.
 
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Soyeong

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Colossians 2:14
And what violation exactly was nailed to the cross?

Crosses were never uses for the purpose of disposing outdated laws such that they needed to legislate new ones to replace the old ones every time someone was crucified, so it is not speaking about the laws themselves being nailed to the cross, but the list of our violations of them.
 
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klutedavid

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Your interpretation is erroneous as the text specifically cites the decrees, as being nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:14
Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The law has always been hostile to us, the law condemned everyone.
 
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Soyeong

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Your interpretation is erroneous as the text specifically cites the decrees, as being nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:14
Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The law has always been hostile to us, the law condemned everyone.

Not even earthly fathers give instructions to their children for the primary purpose of condemning them for not following those instructions, but rather they give instructions to their children for their own good in order to bless them and teach them how to rightly live, and this is that much more true of our Heavenly Father (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). God is for us, not against us, so the same is true of His law, but rather it is only our violations of God's law that are the decrees that are against us. It describes it is as as a certificate of debt, so God's law itself is not a certificate of debt, but rather it is the wages of sin that incurs debt, and again sin is our violations of God's law.

The law concerning circumcision was annulled.

In Romans 3:1-2, Paul said that circumcision had much value in every way. All of God's righteous laws are eternal and will never be annulled (Psalms 119:160).

If Paul prohibited circumcision of the Gentiles then Paul is certainly not obedient to the Torah.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while circumcised?
He is not to be circumcised.

There is no question at all that Paul was not Torah obedient.

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the problem was that circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose for which God commanded it. So the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against that requirement and a ruling against requiring something that God never commanded should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded.

The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God or to tell anyone not to obey any of His commands, so that is not what they were doing, nor should we follow them instead of God even if that is what they were doing. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so if you think that Paul spoke against circumcision, then you should be quicker to think that he sinned and needed to repent than to follow what he said. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying His law, so God simply did not give His people any room to follow someone who taught against circumcision. However, again that was not what they were doing. In Acts 21:20-24, Paul took steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our upholds it.

Peter also ignored the priesthood derived from Aaron contradicting the Torah.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession...

Exodus 19:5-6 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”
 
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pinacled

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Your interpretation is erroneous as the text specifically cites the decrees, as being nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:14
Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The law has always been hostile to us, the law condemned everyone.
Wrong,
There is a Torah portion known as a blessing and inheritance.

What is removed indicates a lack discipline.
 
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pinacled

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Not even earthly fathers give instructions to their children for the primary purpose of condemning them for not following those instructions, but rather they give instructions to their children for their own good in order to bless them and teach them how to rightly live, and this is that much more true of our Heavenly Father (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). God is for us, not against us, so the same is true of His law, but rather it is only our violations of God's law that are the decrees that are against us. It describes it is as as a certificate of debt, so God's law itself is not a certificate of debt, but rather it is the wages of sin that incurs debt, and again sin is our violations of God's law.



In Romans 3:1-2, Paul said that circumcision had much value in every way. All of God's righteous laws are eternal and will never be annulled (Psalms 119:160).



In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the problem was that circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose for which God commanded it. So the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against that requirement and a ruling against requiring something that God never commanded should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded.

The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God or to tell anyone not to obey any of His commands, so that is not what they were doing, nor should we follow them instead of God even if that is what they were doing. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so if you think that Paul spoke against circumcision, then you should be quicker to think that he sinned and needed to repent than to follow what he said. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying His law, so God simply did not give His people any room to follow someone who taught against circumcision. However, again that was not what they were doing. In Acts 21:20-24, Paul took steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our upholds it.



Exodus 19:5-6 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”
The they'd ole sh'aul is refferencing should of known better than to inspect beyond certain boundaries of discretion...

When countered ole sh'aul responded with tempered iron.

The chumash is about more than ones wielding strength.
There are times when The Sword of Truth rings in the hand of its companion.

Blessings Always
 
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TreWalker

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You stated that Paul was Torah observant.

Here is what the Torah commands regarding circumcision.

Genesis 17:13
A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Paul taught that Gentiles shall not be circumcised in direct contradiction of the Torah.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

Paul was not Torah observant in regards to circumcision.

I reject your claim that Paul was Torah observant.
In the first place the Torah does not teach that Gentiles are to be circumcised. Gerim are not Goyim.

Secondly, to further that fact, after Avraham crossed over to Cannan he was no longer a gentile but a Hebrew. AFTER Avram the goy crossed over the spiritual void between the goyim and HaShem, a work of love and faith, he became Avraham. Only then was he given circumcision as a sign of the eternal covenant made between HaShem and Avraham, the Ivri, not the Goy. So when it says 'in your house' it means the House of Israel, not the Gentile church.

Nowhere in Torah or the prophets does HaShem teach or command to apply the law to the Gentiles/Goyim, only the gerim. There is a huge difference, and when the Jewish understanding (pardes) is thrown out it leave only a pattern of the full image given. Or worse an echo of a message that is distorted and blurred.

Avraham is not a Gentile in Gen 17:13, it refers to the entire House of Israel, in the flesh of the physical seeds. So when Paul teaches that physical circumcision is not for the gentiles coming to faith but to be circumcised within as our father Avraham was, he is not teaching against the Torah in anyway.

Paul is always observant to the Torah of HaShem. A Jew guards the Torah or they are not Jewish. All the disciples and followers in the gospels are Jewish.
 
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TreWalker

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Peter also ignored the priesthood derived from Aaron contradicting the Torah.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession...
Exodus 19:5-6 Tree of Life Version (TLV)
5 Now then, if you listen closely to My voice, and keep My covenant, then you will be My own treasure from among all people, for all the earth is Mine. 6 So as for you, you will be to Me a kingdom of kohanim and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you are to speak to Bnei-Yisrael.”

Isaiah 42:6 Tree of Life Version (TLV)
6 “I, Adonai, called You in righteousness,
I will take hold of Your hand,
I will keep You and give You
as a covenant to the people,
as a light to the nations,

Hebrews 9:15 Tree of Life Version (TLV)
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that those called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—since a death has taken place that redeems them from violations under the first covenant.

Who is being spoken to/about here? Who are the kingdom of priests? According to Ex. 19:6 it is the Sons of Israel. Israel is promised to be a holy nation of priests to HaShem. Not merely spiritual either, but the actual sons (bnei) of Israel. Physical seeds.

Isaiah writes that HaShem gives Yeshua the Messiah as a covenant to the people (sons of Israel). Hebrews, who you probably believe is written by Paul, writes that the reason the Messiah mediates a new covenant is so that those called (the sons of Israel) may receive the promised eternal inheritance, and redeems the sons of Israel from ALL the violations made under the first covenant.

A message of grace love and mercy, upon the entire house of Israel. Made, given, and offered to the sons of Israel. And all who sojourn with them. You can't take the message of blessing and love away from the physical seeds of Avraham, without placing yourself under all the curses written against them.
 
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Hebrews 10.9-10 also:

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

I've seen scripture which states that Abba would make a new covenant; but no scripture that said that he would make a new Torah. Can you show me that verse?
 
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You stated that Paul was Torah observant.

He was.

Here is what the Torah commands regarding circumcision.

Genesis 17:13
A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

This verse concerns slaves. Did Paul have any slaves that I'm not aware of?
If not, that law didn't apply to him.

Paul taught that Gentiles shall not be circumcised in direct contradiction of the Torah.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? No. The called are circumcised of heart. Physical circumcision is an outward expression of what has already taken place within. You would no sooner be circumcised, without in inward change; than you would be Baptized without the inward change. Until you are called of the Ruach Ha'Kodesh to show the outward sign, it is in vain.

(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

Faith preceded circumcision with Abraham

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.


Paul was not Torah observant in regards to circumcision.

Paul circumcised Timothy himself; once Timothy had matured in his faith.

(CLV) Ac 16:3
This one Paul wants to come out with him, and, taking him, circumcised him because of the Jews who are in those places, for they all were aware that his father belonged to the Greeks.


Paul was Torah observant.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

(CLV) Ro 7:22
For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

(CLV) 1Co 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the precepts of God.

(CLV) Ac 21:24
Taking these along, be purified together with them, and bear their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."
 
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Peter also ignored the priesthood derived from Aaron contradicting the Torah.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession...

How so?
 
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HARK!

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The law concerning circumcision was annulled.

(CLV) Gn 17:14
As for the uncircumcised male who is not |circumcised »in the flesh of his foreskin, this soul will be cut off from his people; he has annulled My covenant.

You're saying that the covenant of Abraham has been annulled?

(CLV) Gn 17:13
He shall be circumcised, yea circumcised-, the manservant born in your household or acquired with your money. Thus will My covenant be marked in your flesh as an eonian covenant.

No. It's forever. Not one jot nor tittle will pass from the Torah....
 
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Colossians 2:14
Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The law has always been hostile to us

The certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, the judgements which follow transgression of the law, are very hostile. It's the death penalty.

the law condemned everyone

The law doesn't condemn you. It's the judgements that condemn you; when you continue to obstinately transgress the law.

Those transgressions are pardoned with grace, for those who come to faith.

If we truly believe what Messiah told us; we will follow him in his example.
 
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klutedavid

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The certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, the judgements which follow transgression of the law, are very hostile. It's the death penalty.



The law doesn't condemn you. It's the judgements that condemn you; when you continue to obstinately transgress the law.

Those transgressions are pardoned with grace, for those who come to faith.

If we truly believe what Messiah told us; we will follow him in his example.
The law always condemns everyone. Don't tell me that you can sit there and read the law and not feel condemned.

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Let go of the law and hold onto to Jesus.
 
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klutedavid

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The certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, the judgements which follow transgression of the law, are very hostile. It's the death penalty.



The law doesn't condemn you. It's the judgements that condemn you; when you continue to obstinately transgress the law.

Those transgressions are pardoned with grace, for those who come to faith.

If we truly believe what Messiah told us; we will follow him in his example.
The law notifies you of your transgressions and at times with the death penalty. Even a lustful thought or some hatred of another, is the death penalty. No one is perfect and all sin continuously; anyone who claims they don't sin is a liar.

Reading the law is pure torture.
 
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klutedavid

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(CLV) Gn 17:14
As for the uncircumcised male who is not |circumcised »in the flesh of his foreskin, this soul will be cut off from his people; he has annulled My covenant.

You're saying that the covenant of Abraham has been annulled?

(CLV) Gn 17:13
He shall be circumcised, yea circumcised-, the manservant born in your household or acquired with your money. Thus will My covenant be marked in your flesh as an eonian covenant.

No. It's forever. Not one jot nor tittle will pass from the Torah....
The physical circumcision of the law was superseded by the spiritual circumcision of the heart. The Torah was fulfilled in the law of Christ.

The physical temple was redundant in Christ and obviously the law has been fulfilled.
 
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