a third of the angels fell?

[GuardianShua]

Genesis 1:14
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Genesis 37:9
Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

Curious: Rev 1:12. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

"A woman clothed with the sun,..." symbolizes the Catholic Church. But a woman with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head symbolizes Israel.

Why are those who keep the commandments addressed separately from that woman?

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commandments and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Revelation 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.



Woman of Revelation: BibleGateway.com - Keyword[bless and do not curse]Search: woman

 

[Lulav]

Michael, the RCC is not in the night sky.

 

[GuardianShua]

Michael, the RCC is not in the night sky.

Who do you think the Sun and Moon symbolize? And do you have any proof?

 

[Lulav]

Simple.

The sun and the moon.

 

[Lulav]

Proof, that's where the woman and the dragon and the sun and the moon are, in the sky, there's your 'proof'.

 

[GuardianShua]

Proof, that's where the woman and the dragon and the sun and the moon are, in the sky, there's your 'proof'.

 

[GuardianShua]

Proof, that's where the woman and the dragon and the sun and the moon are, in the sky, there's your 'proof'.

The word "sky" can also be translated as "heaven." The Earth is also called Heaven. "Cast down to the Earth" can also be translated as "cast down to the ground."

 

[Shimshon]

This Antiochus?

Antiochus IV Epiphanes ruled the Seleucid Empire from 175 BC until his death in 163 BC

Yes, that Antiochus. Nice catch though.

What I should have said was Yeshua was using the prophecy as it related to the antichrist. Daniel's vision encapsulated both antiochus and the antichrist. Yeshua, having been 'after' antiochus (thank you) was refering to the future part of the vision.

So yes, that antiochus is the forerunner of the antichrist according to the visions, both refered to by Daniel. Antiochus more in 8, and the antichrist more in 9. I can understand that line of thinking. But no, antiochus did not come after Yeshua's life.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

It happens in heaven and a shadow of it appears here on earth. We are forever, linked.

Exactly! Kabbalah is a great source for the intimate connection between heaven, and earth. I believe much of Revelation is Hebraic esoteric language [ie- the sod level of interpretation]. And must be understood within that context.

Good to see you again, Shimshon!




Shalom

 

[Lulav]

Michael you can believe whatever you want.

In the sky there is a constellation that takes up a third of the sky. It is called Hydra. There is another and it is called the Dragon constellation or 'Draco'.

In the sky (in the stars) there is constellation that is a woman. (Virgo)

In the sky are the sun and moon which move around in their own orbits that transverse the night sky.

The verse said 'appeared', which means an astronomical event in the sky.

Don't look for symbolism where there is none.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Michael, the RCC is not in the night sky.

Take it from me, Lulav, you should just give up on this one. I've been through it with him over & over. He thinks the "evil RCC" and the Vatican are a thread that runs through the entire book of Revelation. He won't budge on it, because he will have to throw much study out the window. Trust me, it's a lost cause.

Over symbolizing the book of Revelation is a common error. We see it all the time.



Shalom

 

[GuardianShua]

Michael you can believe whatever you want.

In the sky there is a constellation that takes up a third of the sky. It is called Hydra. There is another and it is called the Dragon constellation or 'Draco'.

In the sky (in the stars) there is constellation that is a woman. (Virgo)

In the sky are the sun and moon which move around in their own orbits that transverse the night sky.

The verse said 'appeared', which means an astronomical event in the sky.

Don't look for symbolism where there is none.

I also study biblical astronomy. Not astrology. Mary clothed in the sun: http://candleandgifts.com/prod_images/candleandgifts-store_1928_62476379.jpg

 

[Lulav]

Yes, I know Michael well, for almost 10 years now, don't mind discussing with him though.

Ever hear of the movie, Somethings got to give

 

[GuardianShua]

Take it from me, Lulav, you should just give up on this one. I've been through it with him over & over. He thinks the "evil RCC" and the Vatican are a thread that runs through the entire book of Revelation. He won't budge on it, because he will have to throw much study out the window. Trust me, it's a lost cause.

Over symbolizing the book of Revelation is a common error. We see it all the time.
Shalom

You need to find something to do besides attacking my character.

 

[GuardianShua]

Michael you can believe whatever you want.

In the sky there is a constellation that takes up a third of the sky. It is called Hydra. There is another and it is called the Dragon constellation or 'Draco'.

In the sky (in the stars) there is constellation that is a woman. (Virgo)

In the sky are the sun and moon which move around in their own orbits that transverse the night sky.

The verse said 'appeared', which means an astronomical event in the sky.

Don't look for symbolism where there is none.

Abraham used astronomy to tell a story of future events on earth.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

You need to find something to do besides attacking my character.

Right back atchya' Mike.

 

[chunkofcoal]

Yes, that Antiochus. Nice catch though.

What I should have said was Yeshua was using the prophecy as it related to the antichrist. Daniel's vision encapsulated both antiochus and the antichrist. Yeshua, having been 'after' antiochus (thank you) was refering to the future part of the vision.

So yes, that antiochus is the forerunner of the antichrist according to the visions, both refered to by Daniel. Antiochus more in 8, and the antichrist more in 9. I can understand that line of thinking. But no, antiochus did not come after Yeshua's life.

So then it was Antiochus who cast down some of the host and stars to the ground and stamped on them - like it says in Daniel 8?
If you believe that, then am I so far off on thinking in Rev. 12:4 the stars that were cast to the ground by the dragon's tail might not be the dragon's angels that were cast out with him?

Or is my reasoning wrong?

 

[chunkofcoal]

Genesis 1:14
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Genesis 37:9
Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

Curious: Rev 1:12. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

"A woman clothed with the sun,..." symbolizes the Catholic Church. But a woman with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head symbolizes Israel.

Why are those who keep the commandments addressed separately from that woman?

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commandments and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Revelation 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.



Woman of Revelation: BibleGateway.com - Keyword[bless and do not curse]Search: woman

Michael, are you basically saying that the sun, moon and stars are symbolic of people? I'm trying to understand what you're getting at.

I think this is an interesting verse to ponder because when you read it closely, the Star walks, but the sceptre rises-

Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

But that's a whole 'nother thread.

 

[ContraMundum]

The Heavenly bodies mentioned in Revelation being understood as teachers etc is not uncommon amongst some of the early Reformers, FWIW.

 

[GuardianShua]

Michael, are you basically saying that the sun, moon and stars are symbolic of people? I'm trying to understand what you're getting at.

I think this is an interesting verse to ponder because when you read it closely, the Star walks, but the sceptre rises-

Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

But that's a whole 'nother thread.

Correct, the stars are symbolic of people and events. That is, when it is not literal.
In Ancient Egyptian mythology Sheth was an ancient god of the Egyptian people.
The star out of Jacob is Yahshua, who becomes a ruling authority of Israel.