MJ Only A theological question

Dave-W

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I am not in the habit of limiting my responders so this is a bit unusual. But I have come across something that i am not quite sure how to respond to.

I am familiar with what replacement theology is and what theological antisemitism is; but is there a name for the theological idea that there is a hard break between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant; with the New being a complete re-boot with no carryover? Does that idea fit into one of the previous two categories, and if so, HOW?
 

AbbaLove

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As you are well aware "theology' is based on one's religious bias. Do you think religious bias is non-existent among MJ Only members? There are 613 MJews, conservative MJews, moderate MJews and possibly even liberal MJews (Messianic Jewish Christians) in the minds of some "613 Messianic Jews". As MJ Only members of this MJ forum we must agree with this forum's SOP ...

  • First and foremost that Yeshua is the promised Messiah to Israel and to the nations.
  • Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.
  • The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.
  • Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept, elucidated, and taught.
  • Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.
  • Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles are equal in Messiah on this forum and are permitted to observe Torah without condemnation.
  • MJs and MGs keep Torah for the love of G-d and to practice sanctified living, not for salvation.
... so then what is the purpose of a divisive thread when the objective of MJs in this CF forum should be reconcilliation between Messianic Judaism and Christendom.

Is it your intent in this MJ Only thread to discuss any theological bias' that exist within Messianic Judaism? Wat does that accomplish? What does Paul say about such bias' that leads to divisive theological debate?

Many of Paul's letters dealt with this divisive problem among Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles that still exists today as evident by your post.
 
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TreWalker

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I am not in the habit of limiting my responders so this is a bit unusual. But I have come across something that i am not quite sure how to respond to.

I am familiar with what replacement theology is and what theological antisemitism is; but is there a name for the theological idea that there is a hard break between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant; with the New being a complete re-boot with no carryover? Does that idea fit into one of the previous two categories, and if so, HOW?
That's replacement theology at its theological core.

Marcion of Senope 85-160 AD. The son of a bishop in Turkey, a theologian who was excommunicated in 140AD claimed the Old covenant scriptures were not inspired. He rejected the Hebrew bible yet he did embrace Paul’s writings as scripture. One of which states: “All scripture is God breathed, and useful for teaching, rebuking, correction and righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16 And since much of the new testament had not yet been written he was referring to the Torah and the prophets. The Hebrew scriptures. Paul used the Hebrew scriptures within his new covenant writings. So it’s amazing to come to such a conclusion.

Just about all the theology we find in the new testament we can find in the old testament. Some of it is clearer than others but the seeds can be found in prophecy and prophetic act.

Marcion was labeled a heretic for rejecting the old covenant, and rightly so. But others who are championed today came up with theologies that have equally sidelined the nation of Israel. Seeds of Marcion made there way into the theology of many of the church fathers. Justin Martyr for one and the epistle of barnabas also.

But it appears the brainchild of replacement theology was Marcion. Notice that he came to these conclusions right after the barkochba revolt was defeated by Rome. And as the rabbis were reforming and Yavneh. The emerging Roman church was in hot competition with the existing Jewish synagogues. And doctrines were formed by both sides that excluded each other. With Jews it was the manim and the added 19th benediction, with Christians it was Marcion.
 
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Lulav

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but is there a name for the theological idea that there is a hard break between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant; with the New being a complete re-boot with no carryover?

Christianity?
 
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Dave-W

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That is part of the "Two House" teachings.
Eh - not really. I have went a few rounds with the Wootans (including on forums) and am familiar with their teaching. They insist on full Torah observance for everyone since EVERYONE who is a New Covenant believer is a physical dependent of Abraham.
 
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.Mikha'el.

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Christianity?

I don't think so. It seems most Christians, however strongly they believe that the commands of the Torah have "passed away" are more than happy to cite passages from there, particularly the "Ten Commandments" to support their theological and moral outlooks.
 
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Lulav

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I don't think so. It seems most Christians, however strongly they believe that the commands of the Torah have "passed away" are more than happy to cite passages from there, particularly the "Ten Commandments" to support their theological and moral outlooks.

reminds me of Matthew 23

2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3 So practice and observe everything they tell you.
But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
 
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Laureate

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I am not in the habit of limiting my responders so this is a bit unusual. But I have come across something that i am not quite sure how to respond to.

I am familiar with what replacement theology is and what theological antisemitism is; but is there a name for the theological idea that there is a hard break between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant; with the New being a complete re-boot with no carryover? Does that idea fit into one of the previous two categories, and if so, HOW?
I am really not fond of the Theological labeling, though many good things come out of the debates, I've seen one too many babies get thrown out with the bath water, a result of seeking to defend one's take, and stand, instead of seeking to defend the Truth.

Nevertheless, (as was pointed out) the doing away with the Old, and bringing in a new replacement would fall under Replacement.

There are various forms of Replacing, such as replacing faulty notions with more sound notions in our individual growth, replacing ineffective priesthoods with more effective priesthoods, etc., these type of replacements play a major role in the growth and development of one's faith, yet are endangered by the loose labeling of Replacement Theology.

Did or did not Apʰrîyém and Manasseh replace Reuben and Simeon as first and second born?

Though the overall Plan, Promises, and Prophecies do not change qualification (or the lack thereof) can easily result in a promotion (or demotion), case and point, if the bride does not stand up and reveal to the King her true nativity, Alôhâyîm is subject to raise up Salvation through another who will.

Standing in the Stead of another person is a type of replacement that does not change a prophecy, the over all plan, or any of the promises therein, though the who, when, where, how, and why may be affected by the contingencies of qualification, i.e., in an acceptable time.
 
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AbbaLove

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I am familiar with what replacement theology is and what theological antisemitism is; but is there a name for the theological idea that there is a hard break between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant; with the New being a complete re-boot with no carryover?
Impossible to ever be a hard break. More like a merciful reconciliation by an Everloving Father.
Exodus 12:22, Ezekiel 36:25, Isaiah 1:16, Leviticus 17:11, Psalm 51:10, Zechariah 13:1

1 Corinthians 2:1-10
Proclaiming Christ Crucified
1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of Power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the Power of God.
Wisdom from the Spirit
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden Wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. 9 But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love Him”—
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
 
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GedaliahMaegil

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... but is there a name for the theological idea that there is a hard break between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant; with the New being a complete re-boot with no carryover? Does that idea fit into one of the previous two categories, and if so, HOW?

That is odd. The Scriptures say that Torah is an integral part of the B'rit Chadashah (cf. Yirm`yahu 31-37 et al.). Regardless of what category an opposing dogma has, there is no such "hard break", just as there is no page in the Scriptures that simply has "The New Testament" separating Tanakh from the B'rit Chadashah Scriptures.
 
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Am not aware of "naming" the differences & am unsure if the "two-house" reference, which is common among'st the Hebrew Rooters applies in this case.

The Brit made in JER-31 for the coming Mashiach applies to Baeit Yisrael & Beit Yahudah

The Hebrew Rooters I have heard of that state their is a Jewish way & a Gentile way to Mashiach have never coined a phrase. If I was to name what yoru asking about I would give it the name "christianity"................
 
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pinacled

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Am not aware of "naming" the differences & am unsure if the "two-house" reference, which is common among'st the Hebrew Rooters applies in this case.

The Brit made in JER-31 for the coming Mashiach applies to Baeit Yisrael & Beit Yahudah

The Hebrew Rooters I have heard of that state their is a Jewish way & a Gentile way to Mashiach have never coined a phrase. If I was to name what yoru asking about I would give it the name "christianity"................
Are seeking the least?
 
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