Today at 03:09 PM Gisbertus Voetius said this in Post #85
"Can you provide any data on how Paul thought?"
My Response: No one can know exactly how or what Paul was thinking. You and I can only go by what we read in scripture and the words used in scripture. My thoughts on Paul and what he likely or proabably thought are based on his words in Romans one and are my opinion, just as everyone else has their opinion. Paul's use of the words 'nature' and 'natural use' are examples of this. These words refer to that which is naturally instinctive for someone. It seems that Paul viewed all males as being naturally instinctive towards females (verse 27). This, as we know in our day and time, is not true. What is naturally instinctive for one person may not be naturally instinctive for another. This is one aspect that makes us all unique. You like apples, I don't! Should I because you do? We all have tongues with taste buds, but we don't like the same things. I'm naturally patient, others may not be! And so on...! Define Paul's words, in the greek, not in english, and you may see what Paul's intent was. Too often, bible readers define the english words they see in the bible with english dictionaries, but the bible was originally written in other languages. A hebrew/greek concordance exists to assist us in understanding words as people like Paul did. Even then though, it's sometimes not clear. That is why the Holy Spirit's guidance is needed. After all, against nature, is that necessarily a sin to Paul? He has God acting contrary to nature in Romans 11:21-24. Did God act in a sinful manner. See http://truluck.com/html/six_bible_passages.html#Romans1:26-27 for further explanation.
"What data do you have that all homosexual activity was a sign of idol worship?"
My Response: The only evidence I have is my faith in what I have learned. It is the same evidence that you and others may have that seemingly has you covinced that same sex loving, committed relationships are in opposition to God's will when the bible does not even speak on that specific issue. It's not found in Genesis 19, yet there are those who use Genesis 19 to oppose same sex loving relationships. Leviticus does not break down the specified same sex acts it is referring to unless one grasps a hold of the context and definitions as defined by the biblical authors not defined by Websters or todays modern english dictionaries. ICjorinthians 6:9 is not referring to committed relationships. This verse is widely unclear on the two words that are commonly used to refer to homosexuality. If you looked this verse up in atleast five or more different bible translations, some would point to homosexuals, others would be vague as to who it is speaking of, while others would be inclusive of heterosexual as well. If all bible translations cannot agree in this verse, there is something to be said about human bible translators. They are not exempt from error, are they. They are human like the rest of us!
"It's obvious to me that your preconceptions on the normality of "committed homosexual partners" has affected your hermeneutic."
My Response: I could imply the same to you
"Also, I am curious as to your understanding of the nature of scripture. Do you think scripture is inerrant and infalliable as defined by the Chicago Statement?"
My Response: I am unclear on the 'Chicago Statement'! :o I was raised to believe that the bible is without errors. In its original form when first given to each and every biblical author, I would say its intent was infallible. I, personally, do not worship the bible. I worship God the Creator. One can be so focused on what the bible says and does not say that the whole point that God wants us to see can be missed (John 5:38-40). 1Thessalonians tells us to test everything and keep what is good and discard what is not good. This is my approach to the bible and others. I take a lot of things into account when studying/reading the bible like culture, society, history, etc. For example, when Paul says 'does not nature teach you that it is a shame for a man to have long hair', there has to be something more there than our modern day understanding of the term 'nature', don't you think? Nature would render a man's hair to be long, for it grows long by nature! Paul means something more. Something else. In short, God makes no mistakes, humans do and that includes bible translators. For many, the bible comforts when the Holy Spirit was sent to be our Comforter. I asked my mother once that if she foud in the bible that women were to be silent in the church and not ask questions until they are at home, would she? She sadly said, "Well, if it says so...!" The bible does say this, but it was due to the cultural attitudes towards women. There are a lot of things the bible says due to culture that we either teach or discard. We have to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. I believe that the biblical authors are human like you and me. I believe that their humanity was a part of their experience with God just as ours is. If they were not, women would have to be silent in church to this day, slaves would be slaves, and who knows what else. The bible is a record of lives before us and their relationship with God, others, and self. We can learn from it, but it is not to be worshipped, kept separate from other books on the shelf, and focused on more so than a personal relationship with God. The word of God is not the words on the pages of the bible. The word of God is Christ Himself, in the flesh. And let it be known that Christ Himself opposed some of what those words on the pages represented. All things that are characteristic of Jesus' character is what we should be looking at and following. Jesus' life and what he did with it. How he loved his neighbor as himself and loved his father, God. The word of God is Jesus and the overall intent of the bible: That all may be saved who believe. Romans chapter one speaks of those who refuse to believe. Make no mistake. Just as being circumcised made no difference in God's acceptance of a person, nor does heterosexuality profit anyone nothing. It is not one step closer to heaven. It is not an additional requirement to being accepted. It is the heart that God looks at and one's sexuality has nothing to do with that except in how one conducts it.
Always in love,
leecappella
