A sitting member of congress calls for open defiance of the Supreme Court

Maria Billingsley

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So he said that it was a precedent, was reaffirmed, and that it is "worthy as treatment of precedent like any other." But precedents have been overturned. So it isn't a statement not to overturn it.

All of this is just stating historical fact with no statement not to overturn. No lies here. Also, Alito was confirmed 15 years ago. Even if he did say he thought Roe v. Wade was right or shouldn't be overturned (neither of which he said), is that not more than enough time to change one's position naturally?


Again, a simple statement of fact that it's precedent and entitled to respect under stare decisis. But precedents can be overturned, and stare decisis is not a statement that precedent cannot be overturned.

So there are no lies in these statements.
Being disingenuous is lying and decietful. It would have been honorable to flat out say exactly what their position is, pro-life. There is no shame in being pro-life! The three desseting votes did not lie they made it clear they were pro- choice. Why is ambiguity ok for the conservatives? I just dont get it.
Thanks for engaging.
 
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NotreDame

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Statments:
"I would tell you that Roe v. Wade, decided in 1973, is a precedent of the United States Supreme Court. It has been reaffirmed," he said. "A good judge will consider it as precedent of the U.S. Supreme Court worthy as treatment of precedent like any other." Neil Gorsech

Roe v. Wade is an important precedent of the Supreme Court. It was decided in 1973, so it has been on the books for a long time," he said. "It is a precedent that has now been on the books for several decades. It has been challenged. It has been reaffirmed. .Alito
"
It is settled as a precedent of the Supreme Court, entitled the respect under principles of stare decisis," he said. "The Supreme Court has recognized the right to abortion since the 1973 Roe v. Wade case. It has reaffirmed it many times." Kavenaugh

And the lie is where exactly?

You are remiss to have not given proper attention to, “A good judge will consider it as precedent of the U.S. Supreme Court worthy as treatment of precedent like any other."

And this treatment has never been precedent cannot be reversed.

“It is settled as a precedent of the Supreme Court, entitled the respect under principles of stare decisis," ah but the “principles of state decisis” has never meant the precedent cannot be overturned.

Roe v. Wade is an important precedent of the Supreme Court. It was decided in 1973, so it has been on the books for a long time," he said. "It is a precedent that has now been on the books for several decades. It has been challenged. It has been reaffirmed.”

Ah, Alito merely stating facts about the history of Roe. He does nothing more and nothing less than state to the factual history.

So, where’s the lie?
 
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JSRG

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Being disingenuous is lying and decietful.
What was disingenuous? They said it was precedent and entitled to stare decisis, and that's all. That's exactly what the opinion did, it analyzed it based on stare decisis, concluded stare decisis wasn't enough to prevent it from being overturned, and then overturned it. No lies or deceits there.

In fact, the quotes you offered from them are rather similar to a statement Sotomayor (regarded as a liberal justice, and one of the dissenters in Dobbs) made in her confirmation hearing:

"All precedents of the Supreme Court I consider settled law, subject to the deference to doctrine of stare decisis would counsel."
(available at https://epic.org/wp-content/uploads/privacy/sotomayor/sotomoyor_transcript.pdf)

Also please note the following:

Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor said Thursday that she would follow a historic ruling affirming Americans' right to own guns for self-defense, but pro-gun activists said they still believe she'd work to limit gun rights if confirmed for the high court.

Democratic Sen. Mark Udall of Colorado said Sotomayor told him during a private meeting that she considers the 2008 ruling that struck down a Washington, D.C., handgun ban as settled law that would guide her decisions in future cases. In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court held that individuals have a constitutional right to guns.

Source: Sotomayor's views on guns prompt questions

Less than a year after she was on the court, in McDonald v. City of Chicago, she joined Breyer's opinion which advocated an overturn of Heller. Granted, the attempt to overturn it didn't succeed--this was a dissent--but the attempt was there despite saying "all precedents" are "settled law" and even referring specifically to Heller to Mark Udall. In regards to successful overturning she participated in, there was Alleyne v. United States overturning Harris v. United States and Herrera v. Wyoming overturning Ward v. Race Horse. Her above statement regarding precedents and stare decisis ultimately went no farther than any of the quotes you offered--and yet, there we have it, multiple attempts to overturn past decisions.

It would have been honorable to flat out say exactly what their position is, pro-life. There is no shame in being pro-life!
Their position in this opinion, which they may or may not have held at the time of their confirmation hearings, was that Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided. Holding that position does not necessarily mean someone is "pro-life". It means they think that it was a bad interpretation of the Due Process Clause. As I've noted before (perhaps too many times, but it's such a good point I can't help but bring it up), one of the most famous critiques of Roe v. Wade was an article by John Hart Ely, a famous constitutional scholar who, in the very article asserts "Were I a legislator I would vote for a statute very much like the one the Court ends up drafting." He agreed with Roe as policy. He nevertheless concluded that Roe "is bad because it is bad constitutional law, or rather because it is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be."

The three desseting votes did not lie they made it clear they were pro- choice.
I can't really respond to this because it's rather vague. didn't look too far into Breyer and Kagan but I'm sure I could easily find them make statements about the importance of precedent and stare decisis and then they happily tried to overturn past decisions as well, much like how I discussed Sotomayor above.

Why is ambiguity ok for the conservatives? I just dont get it.
Thanks for engaging.
Everyone for the last few decades, liberal or conservative, is ambiguous in their hearings when it comes to their future rulings. I recall that was the case with the recent hearings for Ketanji Brown Jackson. There are two reasons for this:
1) Judges should be going into cases with an open mind. So in something like a confirmation hearing, they actually shouldn't have definite answers for how they'd rule in cases.
2) More pragmatically, after Robert Bork got "borked" by the Democrats, people realized that the smartest thing to do is to keep their mouth shut on anything controversial during the hearings.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Sure. But that makes the duty a bit more distributed. I would say it is also the duty of police not to arrest, and that an unconstitutional law is not morally binding.

How do we know that t plans against abortion are unconstitutional? Because the Supreme Court told us. Sure a later court disagrees, but
  • They were put in place by a president and congress elected by minorities.
  • The ruling blatantly violates the intent of the bill of rights. It was never intended to be a list of all rights. Governments in the US are limited. They are not given the power to make things illegal that involve just our private lives because they offend a vocal minority.
  • At least some of the justices lied about their position in this issue to get on the Court.
None of this this affects what is legally enforceable, but it certainly affects the moral status of laws against abortion. They violate the basic principle of the US, and no one should feel obligated to obey them, except on practical grounds having to do with the ability of states to prosecute or persecute (given the novel enforcement in some states) them.

That's asking a bit much of police....don't you think?

They already have to be perfect under gunfire....and now you want them interpreting constitutional law?
 
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loveofourlord

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The Supreme Court cannot ban abortion. They do not have the legislative power to do so. They simply admitted the prior Court did not have the power to make abortion a right. Which means that abortion will be legal in any state that wishes it to be legal, restricted in any state that wishes to restrict it and banned in any state that wishes to ban it. Each of those states has democratically elected representatives of the people so if a majority of the people in those states are determined to have legal abortion, they will have it.

Were not stupid, even the justices themselves have stated that they entirely did it to remove abortion, so stop pretending it's not their intention.
 
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hislegacy

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Were not stupid, even the justices themselves have stated that they entirely did it to remove abortion, so stop pretending it's not their intention.


Link showing that please
 
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civilwarbuff

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Statments:
"I would tell you that Roe v. Wade, decided in 1973, is a precedent of the United States Supreme Court. It has been reaffirmed," he said. "A good judge will consider it as precedent of the U.S. Supreme Court worthy as treatment of precedent like any other." Neil Gorsech

Roe v. Wade is an important precedent of the Supreme Court. It was decided in 1973, so it has been on the books for a long time," he said. "It is a precedent that has now been on the books for several decades. It has been challenged. It has been reaffirmed. .Alito
"
It is settled as a precedent of the Supreme Court, entitled the respect under principles of stare decisis," he said. "The Supreme Court has recognized the right to abortion since the 1973 Roe v. Wade case. It has reaffirmed it many times." Kavenaugh
See #89, a list of rulings overturned by scotus directly or thru later opinions. It happens.......
 
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durangodawood

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The Supreme Court cannot ban abortion. They do not have the legislative power to do so.....
Why is defining whats a "person" necessarily a legislative and not constitutional question?
 
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KCfromNC

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Statments:
"I would tell you that Roe v. Wade, decided in 1973, is a precedent of the United States Supreme Court. It has been reaffirmed," he said. "A good judge will consider it as precedent of the U.S. Supreme Court worthy as treatment of precedent like any other." Neil Gorsech
Seems like Neil is saying he isn't very good at his job - more reason that reasonable people might conclude the court, if not illegitimate, certainly isn't sending their best, to borrow a phrase.
 
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KCfromNC

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What was disingenuous? They said it was precedent and entitled to stare decisis, and that's all. That's exactly what the opinion did, it analyzed it based on stare decisis, concluded stare decisis wasn't enough to prevent it from being overturned, and then overturned it. No lies or deceits there.

In fact, the quotes you offered from them are rather similar to a statement Sotomayor (regarded as a liberal justice, and one of the dissenters in Dobbs) made in her confirmation hearing:

"All precedents of the Supreme Court I consider settled law, subject to the deference to doctrine of stare decisis would counsel."
(available at https://epic.org/wp-content/uploads/privacy/sotomayor/sotomoyor_transcript.pdf)

Also please note the following:

Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor said Thursday that she would follow a historic ruling affirming Americans' right to own guns for self-defense, but pro-gun activists said they still believe she'd work to limit gun rights if confirmed for the high court.

Democratic Sen. Mark Udall of Colorado said Sotomayor told him during a private meeting that she considers the 2008 ruling that struck down a Washington, D.C., handgun ban as settled law that would guide her decisions in future cases. In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court held that individuals have a constitutional right to guns.

Source: Sotomayor's views on guns prompt questions

Less than a year after she was on the court, in McDonald v. City of Chicago, she joined Breyer's opinion which advocated an overturn of Heller. Granted, the attempt to overturn it didn't succeed--this was a dissent--but the attempt was there despite saying "all precedents" are "settled law" and even referring specifically to Heller to Mark Udall. In regards to successful overturning she participated in, there was Alleyne v. United States overturning Harris v. United States and Herrera v. Wyoming overturning Ward v. Race Horse. Her above statement regarding precedents and stare decisis ultimately went no farther than any of the quotes you offered--and yet, there we have it, multiple attempts to overturn past decisions.

Their position in this opinion, which they may or may not have held at the time of their confirmation hearings, was that Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided. Holding that position does not necessarily mean someone is "pro-life". It means they think that it was a bad interpretation of the Due Process Clause. As I've noted before (perhaps too many times, but it's such a good point I can't help but bring it up), one of the most famous critiques of Roe v. Wade was an article by John Hart Ely, a famous constitutional scholar who, in the very article asserts "Were I a legislator I would vote for a statute very much like the one the Court ends up drafting." He agreed with Roe as policy. He nevertheless concluded that Roe "is bad because it is bad constitutional law, or rather because it is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be."

I can't really respond to this because it's rather vague. didn't look too far into Breyer and Kagan but I'm sure I could easily find them make statements about the importance of precedent and stare decisis and then they happily tried to overturn past decisions as well, much like how I discussed Sotomayor above.


Everyone for the last few decades, liberal or conservative, is ambiguous in their hearings when it comes to their future rulings. I recall that was the case with the recent hearings for Ketanji Brown Jackson. There are two reasons for this:
1) Judges should be going into cases with an open mind. So in something like a confirmation hearing, they actually shouldn't have definite answers for how they'd rule in cases.
2) More pragmatically, after Robert Bork got "borked" by the Democrats, people realized that the smartest thing to do is to keep their mouth shut on anything controversial during the hearings.
This sort of attempt to weasel out of the obvious is just going to make people look at these justices as deceitful and deceptive. While maybe technically not lies, it isn't going to help public perception of the court being packed with right wing activist justices who will do whatever they can get away with to further their agenda.
 
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hedrick

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The Supreme Court cannot ban abortion. They do not have the legislative power to do so. They simply admitted the prior Court did not have the power to make abortion a right. Which means that abortion will be legal in any state that wishes it to be legal, restricted in any state that wishes to restrict it and banned in any state that wishes to ban it. Each of those states has democratically elected representatives of the people so if a majority of the people in those states are determined to have legal abortion, they will have it.
Given that the current Supreme Court doesn't see a constitutional right to abortion, there's nothing to keep congress from prohibiting it. Maybe the Supreme Court would say that they have no right to dictate on this issue, but I doubt it. Too many members of the court have strong ideological commitments on this issue.
 
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hedrick

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A Democratic leader calls for the public to disregard one of the three branches of government is a form of treason, is it not?
When Congress passed the fugitive slave act, do you think creating the underground railroad to help them escape was morally justified? Civil disobedience has a long history in the US.
 
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civilwarbuff

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When Congress passed the fugitive slave act, do you think creating the underground railroad to help them escape was morally justified?
Except for helping an escaped slave could result in prison and very large fines. What happens to Waters for encouraging sedition (Which is what she is doing)?
sedition
noun
se·di·tion | \ si-ˈdi-shən
\
Definition of sedition
: incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority
 
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