a simple question for calvinists

St_Worm2

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Please read Jer 7:31, 19:5, 32:35
Did God foreordain (predestinate) these events?
Please answer yes or no.
Yes.

God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, or He would not be God. However, His "ordination" does not mean that God "causes" anyone to sin, that we are all more than capable of doing w/o any help from Him.

In Christ,
David
 
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PollyJetix

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Yes, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, or He would not be God. However, His "ordination" does not mean that God "causes" anyone to sin, that we are all more than capable of doing w/o any help from Him.

In Christ,
David

I understand that "to ordain" means "to issue an order."

Now, Hitler issued an order for the Jews to be captured and murdered.
Wasn't it mainly Hitler's fault that it happened?

Sure, those under Hitler chose to carry out his orders... and they were punished for their individual choices... However, Hitler bore the main responsibility for the entire debacle. Because HE was the one who issued the order!

If God issues an order beforehand, that some people are supposed to be idol worshipers, and breakers of his commands... then He is responsible for their evil deeds!
 
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paul1149

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How can God, who dwells in unapproachable light, in Whom there is no darkness, Who is perfect goodness and love, do anything that contradicts His own nature?
 
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ClementofA

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Yes, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, or He would not be God. However, His "ordination" does not mean that God "causes" anyone to sin, that we are all more than capable of doing w/o any help from Him.

The reason we are "capable" of sinning is because God made it so that through the "fall" the sin nature enslaving humans in sin would be inherited by billions. Thus God is responsible for all the good and evil that followed in human history. In deterministic Calvinism, at least.

God would also be responsible for all those that burned in hell forever (if such an imaginary thing existed, that is).

As to Adam & Eve's responsibility for their own failures, it was God Who put them in the garden with the tempter & it was God Who made them potentially vulnerable to the devil. God knew in advance what they would do, but orchestrated the scene & allowed it to happen anyway. One has to wonder if it was not His intention all along that they fall into sin & partake of the tree of knowledge of good & evil. How could they ever praise God for all the good that surrounded them if they had no knowledge of evil to contrast it with?
 
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ClementofA

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I understand that "to ordain" means "to issue an order."

Now, Hitler issued an order for the Jews to be captured and murdered.
Wasn't it mainly Hitler's fault that it happened?

Sure, those under Hitler chose to carry out his orders... and they were punished for their individual choices... However, Hitler bore the main responsibility for the entire debacle. Because HE was the one who issued the order!

If God issues an order beforehand, that some people are supposed to be idol worshipers, and breakers of his commands... then He is responsible for their evil deeds!

Exactly. The difference is that Love Omnipotent, unlike Hitler, is capable of working all things together for good, & making it all more than right, in the end, & for eternity.

"for the momentary light matter of our tribulation, more and more exceedingly an age-during weight of glory doth work out for us --" (2 Corinthians 4:17)

"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." (Romans 11:32)
 
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ClementofA

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How can God, who dwells in unapproachable light, in Whom there is no darkness, Who is perfect goodness and love, do anything that contradicts His own nature?

Like burn people in fire forever?

If sin is "missing the mark" & in causing sin & evil, whether directly or indirectly, God does not miss the mark, then He has not sinned.
 
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St_Worm2

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If God issues an order beforehand, that some people are supposed to be idol worshipers, and breakers of his commands... then He is responsible for their evil deeds!

Hi PollyJetix, you are correct, if God issued such commands and "caused" people to sin, then He would be the undoubted Author of sin/moral evil. Thankfully, we know that He would never do such a thing, rather, those who worship idols (and those who sin against Him in every other way) do so because they have been swept away by their own lusts and have chosen to do so.

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - God ordains whatsoever comes to pass both actively (IOW, He causes things to happen*), and passively (IOW, He allows things to happen). In both cases He is absolutely sovereign.

*(Just to be clear, God never "causes" anyone to sin, but He does "allow" us to do so. If He did not, no one would be able to sin, nor would our wills be free!)

1 Corinthians 10
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it.
 
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DeaconDean

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"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken. Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof? Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth? Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth? Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew? Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it? The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen. Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth? Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee? Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are? Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven, When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together? Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions, When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait? Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat." -Job 38:1-41 (KJV)

Who am I to question God?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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St_Worm2

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The reason we are "capable" of sinning is because God made it so that through the "fall" the sin nature enslaving humans in sin would be inherited by billions.

All human beings, be they our first parents who were created by God directly, or the rest of us who were begotten by our parents instead, have always had the ability to sin.

Thus God is responsible for all the good and evil that followed in human history. In deterministic Calvinism, at least.

God allows us to sin, but He does not cause us to sin. That's what Calvinism teaches. There is the separate belief of a few that is referred to as "Hyper-Calvinism", but it is neither Calvinism (nor did it spring out of Calvinism), nor is it Biblical or Christian.

God would also be responsible for all those that burned in hell forever (if such an imaginary thing existed, that is).

God will judge those who die without Christ, and He will condemn and punish them as well if they are found to be transgressors of the Law (be that the Law of Moses, or simply the Law that is written in each man's heart .. if they possess no other law than that one .. Romans 2:12-16).

As to Adam & Eve's responsibility for their own failures, it was God Who put them in the garden with the tempter & it was God Who made them potentially vulnerable to the devil. God knew in advance what they would do, but orchestrated the scene & allowed it to happen anyway. One has to wonder if it was not His intention all along that they fall into sin & partake of the tree of knowledge of good & evil. How could they ever praise God for all the good that surrounded them if they had no knowledge of evil to contrast it with?

Are you a Mormon?

Did God know what our progenitors were going to do in the Garden? Of course.

If He stopped them from disobeying Him, and if He continued to do so throughout their lives, what would that mean concerning their free will?

Yours and His,
David
 
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ClementofA

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Hi PollyJetix, you are correct, if God issued such commands and "caused" people to sin, then He would be the undoubted Author of sin/moral evil. Thankfully, we know that He would never do such a thing, rather, those who worship idols (and those who sin against Him in every other way) do so because they have been swept away by their own lusts and have chosen to do so.

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

In the garden of Eden it was not God Who tempted Eve, but Satan. God was the one who allowed Satan to be there together with Eve. And it was God who allowed Satan to tempt Eve. So obviously God bears responsibility.

Whether or not God ordered Satan to tempt Eve is not stated.

God, in the book of Job, tells Satan what he can & cannot do to Job:

"10"Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11"But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face." 12Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.…(Job 1:10-12)

16While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 17While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 18While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 19And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

20Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

22In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. (Job 1:16-22)

"Pity me, pity me, O you my friends, For the hand of God has struck me." (Job 19:21)

3Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

6The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

7So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. 8Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

9His wife said to him, “Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!”

10He replied, “You are talking like a foolishb woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?” In all this, Job did not sin in what he said. (Job 2:3-10)

21"Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' 22"The LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.' 23"Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."… (1 Kings 22:21-23)
 
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PollyJetix

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There is so much in the Bible that flies in the face of Calvinism.
Too many verses like this:

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

...and this...
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
(confidence = faith. This verse tells us that we must hold the beginning of our confidence in Christ, stedfast to the end... otherwise, we will not be made partakers of Christ.)

One more?
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(This speaks of one who is already grafted in, not one who may potentially be grafted in!)
 
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St_Worm2

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In the garden of Eden it was not God Who tempted Eve, but Satan. God was the one who allowed Satan to be there together with Eve. And it was God who allowed Satan to tempt Eve. So obviously God bears responsibility.

That is neither obvious nor true, Clement. It is, at best, nonsensical.

Did God know what our progenitors were going to do in the Garden? Of course.

If He stopped them from disobeying Him, and if He continued to do so throughout their lives, what would that mean concerning their free will?
 
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ClementofA

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God will judge those who die without Christ, and He will condemn and punish them as well if they are found to be transgressors of the Law (be that the Law of Moses, or simply the Law that is written in each man's heart .. if they possess no other law than that one .. Romans 2:12-16).

In Calvinism Christ did not die for many people, so what chance do they have of being saved & avoiding "hell"? Absolutely none. How can God possibly love them? Many Calvinists believe they'll be tormented forever. That would be without ever having a single real chance to be saved, let alone a million opportunities or as many as it takes. Such a God is neither loving, merciful or righteous.

Calvinism teaches:

"Total Depravity: Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin. The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man's heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:14-20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man's true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine." Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature, we are born again not by our own will but God's will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God ordains people to eternal life (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; Rom. 9:9-23)."

"Unconditional Election: God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:9-11) without any consideration of merit or quality within the individual...Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15,21)."

"Limited Atonement: Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect."

"...Irresistible Grace: When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call, and it cannot be resisted.

"...Perseverance of the Saints: You cannot lose your salvation."

What is Calvinism? | carm

Are you a Mormon?

No, as all my posts say, i'm non denom. That means non denominational. I'm Christian. "Born Again". Catholic with a small c, as per:

" The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine."

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DeaconDean

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In the garden of Eden it was not God Who tempted Eve, but Satan. God was the one who allowed Satan to be there together with Eve. And it was God who allowed Satan to tempt Eve. So obviously God bears responsibility.

In the first place, everybody assumes that was Satan/Lucifer in the Garden.

Nowhere is that stated in the text. It simply says "the serpent".

Secondly, everybody says it was Adam who sinned. And they are right. However, looking at scripture, we see:

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." -Gen. 2:16-17 (KJV)

But when tempted by the serpent, what was Eve's response?

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." -Gen. 3:2-3 (KJV)

Whether or not God ordered Satan to tempt Eve is not stated.

Somebody needs to do some studying on the "Gap Theory" before making statements like that.

God, in the book of Job, tells Satan what he can & cannot do to Job:

"10"Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11"But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face." 12Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.…(Job 1:10-12)

16While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 17While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 18While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 19And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

20Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

22In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. (Job 1:16-22)

"Pity me, pity me, O you my friends, For the hand of God has struck me." (Job 19:21)

3Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

6The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

7So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. 8Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

9His wife said to him, “Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!”

10He replied, “You are talking like a foolishb woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?” In all this, Job did not sin in what he said. (Job 2:3-10)

21"Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' 22"The LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.' 23"Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."… (1 Kings 22:21-23)

And that is relevant how?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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There is so much in the Bible that flies in the face of Calvinism.
Too many verses like this:

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

John Gill comments:

"Colossians 1:23

If ye continue in the faith
In the doctrine of faith which they had received and embraced; and in the grace of faith, and the exercise of it which was implanted in them; and in the profession of faith which they had made: not that the virtue and efficacy of Christ's blood, sufferings, and death, and reconciliation of their persons to God thereby, depended upon their faith, and abiding in it; but that faith and continuance in it were necessary means of their presentation in unblemished holiness and righteousness; for if they had not faith, or did not abide in it or if the good work of grace was not wrought upon their souls, and that performed until the day of Christ, they could not be presented holy and blameless: this shows the necessity of the saints' final perseverance in faith and holiness, and is mentioned with this view, to put them upon a concern about it, and to make use of all means, under divine grace, to enjoy it; and nothing could more strongly incline and move unto it, than the blessed effect of Christ's death, reconciliation and the end of it, to present the reconciled ones blameless; in order to which it is necessary they should hold on and out to the end: hence the Ethiopic version reads the words, not as a condition, but as an exhortation enforced by what goes before; "therefore be ye established in the faith": it follows,"

Source

I see nothing here that goes against Calvinism.

...and this...
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
(confidence = faith. This verse tells us that we must hold the beginning of our confidence in Christ, stedfast to the end... otherwise, we will not be made partakers of Christ.)

I love it when people use Hebrews.

Arthur W. Pink comments:

"For the right understanding of this verse it is of first importance that we should note


carefully the tense of the verb in the first clause: it is not "we shall be made partakers of Christ

if"—that would completely overthrow the gospel of God’s grace, deny the efficacy of the

finished Work of Christ, and make assurance of our acceptance before God impossible before

death. No, what the Spirit here says is, "We are made partakers of Christ," and in the Greek it is

expressed even more decisively: "For partakers we have become of the Christ." The word

"partakers" here is the same as in Hebrews 3:1, "partakers of the heavenly calling," and at the

end of Hebrews 1:9 is rendered, "fellows." Perhaps, "companions" would be a better rendering.

It means that we are so "joined unto the Lord," as to be "one spirit" with Him (1 Cor. 6:17). It is

to be so united to Christ that we are "members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones"

(Ephesians 5:30). It is to be made by grace, "joint-heirs" with Him (Rom. 8:17). The word "made

partakers of Christ" shows there was a time when Christians were not so. They were not so

born naturally; it was a privilege conferred upon them when they "received" Him as their Savior

(John 1:12).

"If we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end." This does not

express a condition of our remaining partakers of Christ in the sense of its being a contingency.

"What is the one thing which the Christian desires? What is the one great thing which he does?

What is the one great secret which he is always endeavoring to find out with greater clearness

and grasp with firmer intensity? Is it not this: ‘my Beloved is mine, and I am His’? The inmost

desire of our heart and the exhortation of the Word coincide. To the end we must persevere;

and it is therefore with great joy and alacrity that we receive the solemn exhortations: ‘He that

endureth unto the end shall be saved’; ‘No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking

back, is fit for the kingdom of God.’ We desire to hear constantly the voice which saith from His

Heavenly throne, ‘To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My kingdom, even as I

also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne’" (Saphir).

To hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end is to furnish evidence of

the genuineness of our profession, it is to make it manifest both to ourselves and others that

we have been made "partakers of Christ." Difficulties in the path are presupposed, severe trials

are to be expected: how else could faith show itself? Buffetings and testings do but provide

occasions for the manifestation of faith, they are also the means of its exercise and growth. The

Greek word for "confidence" here is not the same as in verse 6: there the "confidence" spoken

of is to make a bold and free confession of our faith; here, it is a deep and settled assurance of

Christ’s excellency and sufficiency, which supports our hearts. The one is external, the other is

internal. To "hold fast the beginning of our confidence" signifies to "continue in the faith,

grounded and settled" (Col. 1:23). It is to say with Job, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in

Him." (Job 13:15).

"Firm unto the end." This is the test. At the beginning of our Christian course, our

confidence in Christ was full and firm. We knew that He was a mighty Savior, and we were fully

persuaded that He was able to keep that which we have committed unto Him against that day.

But the roughness of the way, the darkness of the night, the fierceness of the storm into which,

sooner or later, we are plunged, tends to shake our confidence, and perhaps (much to our

sorrow now) we cried, "Lord, carest Thou not"? Yet, if we were really "partakers of Christ"

though we fell, yet were we not utterly cast down. We turned to the Word, and there we found

help, light, comfort. In it we discovered that the very afflictions we have experienced were

what God had told us would be our portion for "we are appointed thereunto" (1 Thess. 3:3). In

it we learned that God’s chastenings of us proceeded from His love (Heb. 12). And now, though

we have proved by painful experience to have less and less confidence in ourselves, in our

friends, and even in our brethren, yet, by grace, our confidence in the Lord has grown and

become more intelligent. Thus do we obtain experimental verification of that word, "Better is

the end of a thing than the beginning thereof" (Ecclesiastes 7:8).

Source

One more?
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(This speaks of one who is already grafted in, not one who may potentially be grafted in!)

Again, John Gill comments:

"if thou continue in his goodness;
meaning not the love, grace, and free favour of God, or the grace of the Spirit, a continuance in which no "if" is to be put upon; for such who are interested in the love of God always continue in it, and nothing can separate them from it; and such as have the graces of the Spirit implanted in them, as faith, hope, and love, can never lose them; these always remain in them, and they in the possession of them, though not always in the exercise of them; but the goodness of God in a church state is here meant, as the means of grace and comfort, the ministration of the word and ordinances; and the sense is, if thou dost not despise the riches of divine goodness in a church relation, if thou dost not abuse it, or walk unworthy of it, if thou abidest by it, and retainest a value for it, thou wilt still share the advantages of it:"

Source

I see nothing that goes against Calvinism.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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There is so much in the Bible that flies in the face of Calvinism.
Too many verses like this:

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

...and this...
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
(confidence = faith. This verse tells us that we must hold the beginning of our confidence in Christ, stedfast to the end... otherwise, we will not be made partakers of Christ.)

One more?
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(This speaks of one who is already grafted in, not one who may potentially be grafted in!)

Just one more thought here.

You do realize that you are using "conditional clauses" in your conclusions?

If a plane don't run out of gas, it should reach it's destination.

After 713 times hitting a homerun, if Hank Aaron hits another he would break a record.

In the end times, if it were possible to deceive the very elect.

Are we not told also in scripture that:

If we walk away, will the Good Shepherd not come and seek us out?

If we walk away, will we not be chastised by God until we return?

If we walk away, If we continue not in steadfastness, then scripture lies because we are told:

"he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" -Phil. 1:6 (KJV)

If we walk away, then it also makes this piece of scripture meaningless:


"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;" -Heb. 12:2 (KJV)

John Gill comments:

"he is a suitable, complete, and only Saviour; and whoever look to him by faith shall be saved; and he is to be considered, and looked unto, as "the author and finisher of faith": he is the author or efficient cause of it; all men are by nature without it; it is not in the power of man to believe of himself; it is a work of omnipotence; it is an instance of the exceeding greatness of the power of God; and it is the operation of Christ, by his Spirit; and the increase of it is from him, ( Luke 17:5 ) and he is the finisher of it; he gives himself, and the blessings of his grace, to his people, to maintain and strengthen it; he prays for it, that it fail not; he carries on the work of faith, and will perform it with power; and brings to, and gives that which is the end of it, eternal life, or the salvation of the soul."

Source

If a frog had wings...


God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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ClementofA

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God allows us to sin, but He does not cause us to sin.

Men are slaves of sin. This isn't their fault. They inherited it from Adam. Is it, then, Adam's fault, that the human race are slaves of sin? No, Adam did not create himself in such a way that sin would be passed on. God did that. So God bears at least a very large degree of responsibility for the sin that was inherited & the human history of sins & evil acts. That's not to say that God is at fault for doing so, since that would imply that He sinned, which He never does. God intends to use this for good.
 
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