A serious discussion on...masturbation

[JeTmAn]

Originally posted by Ray K


Sex is natural. Masturbation is natural. I would rather someone give in to his "lust" and touch than to become a sexually dysfunctional person.

I disagree that it is a natural act. I didn't start masturbating until I was 18, because I didn't think it was even possible (in my later teen years, I did learn of the existence of masturbation but never really knew what it was). And while you don't have sex typically until you're an adult, sex is an integral part of the human species, as it is a part of all species; reproduction is a part of every person, self-gratification by way of masturbation is not.

Most men feel guilty when they do it because our society's Puritanical views on sex have ingrained into us that any sexual act except the "missionary" position between a husband and wife is wrong, evil and sinful.

I felt guilty about it because I knew it was WRONG. Trust me, I'm a rather liberal Christian, and even I realize there's no excuse for masturbation. And I do not believe that there are certain sexual practices between a husband and a wife that are wrong. If you're with your wife, God means you to take pleasure from it and you should go with that.

We continually beat ourselves up over this very personal act which harms or affects no one but ourselves. In fact, the only result is that it gives pleasure! How weird is it that we demonize one of the few consequence-free pleasures available to us?

Consequence free? I don't think so. I know it certainly had consequences for me. The more I did it, the deeper into my own lusts I got, the stranger my fantasies got. That kind of mental depravity seriously affects your view of women. Don't think so? Check out all the young men out there who only enjoy watching lesbians.

I got over it a long time ago. For reasons that I will not go into, my sexual drive exceeds that of my spouse. I am sure that she is grateful that I do not try to force myself on her.

If you consider it adulterous, then construct an imaginary person in your mind. Obviously, you cannot commit adultery with an non-existant person.

In my experience, this is impossible. You may succeed for a while, but eventually you will begin to fantasize about real women, whether you know them or not. In any event, suggesting this practice is skirting the issue; wanting sexual relations with a woman who is not your wife, real or not, is wrong.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by JeTmAn


I disagree that it is a natural act. I didn't start masturbating until I was 18, because I didn't think it was even possible (in my later teen years, I did learn of the existence of masturbation but never really knew what it was). And while you don't have sex typically until you're an adult, sex is an integral part of the human species, as it is a part of all species; reproduction is a part of every person, self-gratification by way of masturbation is not.


Chimpanzees touch. Are they committing an unnatural act when they do so? Can any animal commit an unnatural act?


I felt guilty about it because I knew it was WRONG. Trust me, I'm a rather liberal Christian, and even I realize there's no excuse for masturbation. And I do not believe that there are certain sexual practices between a husband and a wife that are wrong. If you're with your wife, God means you to take pleasure from it and you should go with that.

Consequence free? I don't think so. I know it certainly had consequences for me. The more I did it, the deeper into my own lusts I got, the stranger my fantasies got. That kind of mental depravity seriously affects your view of women. Don't think so? Check out all the young men out there who only enjoy watching lesbians.

There is a psychological reason why men enjoy watching lesbians. Just because all men touch does not mean there is a connection between the two.

The things you consider "depraved" are only considered so because of your Puritanical upbringing. "If it feels good, DON'T DO IT!!!!"

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Ray K, I'm sure, regardless of any far out there example you can come up with, you know when its right or wrong. The point of this thread will come to different conclusions since some of you are not held to the conventant with God that we are.

Oh yeah. That was one tremendous guilt that was lifted from my shoulders when I lost my faith. It was certainly an unexpected benefit, but a benefit nonetheless.

And, surprise, surprise... I have not become depraved as a result of my "cancelled" covenant with God. I have been happily married in a monogamous relationship for 13 years.

 

[LouisBooth]

okay, I'm happy for your relationship, but nonetheless, my statement holds true. you knew it was wrong, now I'm guessing you just rationalize it? oh..you're not a christian "anymore" so you don't think its wrong...got ya...again like I said, reaching different conclusions based on the fact we are held to different standards. Yours is by your own creation, mine is the standard made by God.

 

[JeTmAn]

Originally posted by Ray K
Chimpanzees touch. Are they committing an unnatural act when they do so? Can any animal commit an unnatural act?

Animals also eat their own feces. Is that something that's natural for a human? We are civilized, and by far the most intelligent species on the place. Also, I'd be interested to learn the numbers on chimpanzees masturbating. How many do it? Is it a learned behavior or not? Citing one example from the animal kingdom doesn't prove anything.

There is a psychological reason why men enjoy watching lesbians. Just because all men touch does not mean there is a connection between the two.

Let's go further...I've found that those who touch heavily often have abnormal sexual fantasies. Many, many lonely men out there have gotten into fetishism as well as many other lurid sexual practices. I am touched by none of this because I do not touch, but when I did...I felt the pull myself. Not necessarily fetishes, or anything specific like that, but it ate away at my mind.

The things you consider "depraved" are only considered so because of your Puritanical upbringing. "If it feels good, DON'T DO IT!!!!"

I was raised in a Christian family, and I became a Christian at the age of eleven. But I have validated my faith through my own evaluation; I can stand on my own two feet. And I've also found that many of the practices the secular world tries to rationalize by, in part, disparaging Christian condemnation of said practices, are not just sinful, they're unhealthy. The Bible has very solid reasons behind its moral code and commands; poke underneath each commandment and you'll find real life applicability.

The Bible's message is anything BUT "if it feels good, don't do it". The Bible tells us to enjoy life and embrace it while we have it. But a prudent man, Christian or not, will realize there are some things he should not take part in. Drugs, for instance, especially hard drugs. Short-term pleasure will earn you long-term problems, even with a soft drug like marijuana. For my mental health, I realize that masturbation is not something I should practice. For my spiritual health, there are other reasons but the same conclusion.

Anyways, it's clear to me that you're not a Christian, and as this thread was for Christian viewpoints, let's just end our line of discussion here. There isn't much ground to be gained.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
okay, I'm happy for your relationship, but nonetheless, my statement holds true. you knew it was wrong, now I'm guessing you just rationalize it? oh..you're not a christian "anymore" so you don't think its wrong...got ya...again like I said, reaching different conclusions based on the fact we are held to different standards. Yours is by your own creation, mine is the standard made by God.

No, I didn't "know" it was wrong; I "believed" in God and "believed" that it was wrong. I now realize that those beliefs were in error.

Your mistake is in confusing belief with knowledge.

My previously Puritanical hangups about sex had ZERO to do with my loss of faith.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by JeTmAn


Animals also eat their own feces. Is that something that's natural for a human? We are civilized, and by far the most intelligent species on the place. Also, I'd be interested to learn the numbers on chimpanzees masturbating. How many do it? Is it a learned behavior or not? Citing one example from the animal kingdom doesn't prove anything.

Deny, deny, deny.

You said it wasn't natural and I cited a specific, well-known example of this occurance in the animal kingdom.

[Removed by the Administration]

Let's go further...I've found that those who touch heavily often have abnormal sexual fantasies. Many, many lonely men out there have gotten into fetishism as well as many other lurid sexual practices. I am touched by none of this because I do not touch, but when I did...I felt the pull myself. Not necessarily fetishes, or anything specific like that, but it ate away at my mind.

Please do not project your sexual compulsions on the general population. My "sexual fantasies" now are little different than from when I was 15.

You say that masturbating made you think dirty, naughty things - so you stopped. Good for you. Maybe the problem was not the masturbating, but rather your personal sexual hangups. Are you honestly going to tell me that you don't have "sexual fantasies" now that you've stopped masturbating? LOL.

I was raised in a Christian family, and I became a Christian at the age of eleven. But I have validated my faith through my own evaluation; I can stand on my own two feet. And I've also found that many of the practices the secular world tries to rationalize by, in part, disparaging Christian condemnation of said practices, are not just sinful, they're unhealthy. The Bible has very solid reasons behind its moral code and commands; poke underneath each commandment and you'll find real life applicability.

[Removed by Administration]

The Bible's message is anything BUT "if it feels good, don't do it". The Bible tells us to enjoy life and embrace it while we have it. But a prudent man, Christian or not, will realize there are some things he should not take part in. Drugs, for instance, especially hard drugs. Short-term pleasure will earn you long-term problems, even with a soft drug like marijuana. For my mental health, I realize that masturbation is not something I should practice. For my spiritual health, there are other reasons but the same conclusion.

Well, I sure hope that you don't drink alcoholic beverages.

Anyways, it's clear to me that you're not a Christian, and as this thread was for Christian viewpoints, let's just end our line of discussion here. There isn't much ground to be gained.

This is "Open Discussion and Debate".

If you have hangups about sex, maybe you should go see a professional counselor.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Hank

You obviously didn't like my responses, well, counter my arguments via your Bible, do not derail the topic to convert me into Christianity. It wont happen. Been there/done that.

Hank, time to get off your high horse. Nothing in my responce required biblical proof. Consider for a moment that not everyone is against you.

And don't accuse me of trying to convert you, I didn't know that you were not a christian, excuse my assumption.
It seems that for reasons unknown, you hold bitterness towards the faith. Maybe I am wrong, but thats the way it looks. I hope I don't get associated with the type of people you have encountered in the past.

If you are offended by a christian telling you the truth, then maybe you should consider posting on a forum of a weak faith group, or of no faith at all. You know the message that christians have, so don't be suprized when you hear it. Yeah, maybe you have been there and done that, but I doubt you ever came to true faith. Maybe thats why you are here. Maybe you are not here just to give your view on masturbation. Maybe it bothers you that you are denying Jesus Christ. I didn't think that it bothered me, but I was lying to myself.

BTW, I still think any christian who masturbates and has no moral lapse in conscience is not only in sin, but is also satan's monkey boy.

 

[TheBear]

Originally posted by psycmajor
Wastes sperm?? HA HA HA HA. They also teach that you shouldn't use contraception, which would mean more Catholics. Of course, the rhythm method is a (very risky) form of contraception. How is the church going to enforce that?

This attack on the Catholic church was inappropriate and uncalled for. Please refrain from Catholic bashing, and stay on topic.


John

 

[Hank]

DaveKervin01 - If you don't think this is a biblical issue, then what is!!?? Perhaps Jesus is not a biblical issue, would you agree? cough..sarcasm..cough.

No holy spirit huh, man you are missing out. Read the scriptures Hank, you will see the truth. - DaveKervin01End

Hank01 - You obviously didn't like my responses, well, counter my arguments via your Bible, do not derail the topic to convert me into Christianity. It wont happen. Been there/done that. - Hank01End

Dave02 - Hank, time to get off your high horse. Nothing in my responce required biblical proof. Consider for a moment that not everyone is against you.

And don't accuse me of trying to convert you, I didn't know that you were not a christian, excuse my assumption.
It seems that for reasons unknown, you hold bitterness towards the faith. Maybe I am wrong, but thats the way it looks. I hope I don't get associated with the type of people you have encountered in the past.

If you are offended by a christian telling you the truth, then maybe you should consider posting on a forum of a weak faith group, or of no faith at all. You know the message that christians have, so don't be suprized when you hear it. Yeah, maybe you have been there and done that, but I doubt you ever came to true faith. Maybe thats why you are here. Maybe you are not here just to give your view on masturbation. Maybe it bothers you that you are denying Jesus Christ. I didn't think that it bothered me, but I was lying to myself.

BTW, I still think any christian who masturbates and has no moral lapse in conscience is not only in sin, but is also satan's monkey boy. - DaveKevin02End

LOL who rides on the high horse again? Nothing you say requires biblical back up? What are you? Just like your imaginary leader, when he was out of thought let alone biblical reason out comes the word treasure! Satan's monkey boy, so anyone not getting the Holy Spirit and does not agree, as a Christian, to your guilt trip is possessed by the Devil?
So I say it again. Don't put your guilt trip on the people. Quote your bible and show why masturbation is wrong. I gave my biblical reasoning already why I think it is not an issue. Read it, and then tell me "Maybe you are not here just to give your view on masturbation." - Truthfully I feel sorry for you. You are haunted by the same doctrines the Asians/Greeks are/were. Stories invented by people with vivid imagination about the heavens.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"These may sound like flippant examples, but I'm trying to point out that drawing a line between "OK" masturbation and "sinful" masturbation is not as easy as you think. "

Ray K, I'm sure, regardless of any far out there example you can come up with, you know when its right or wrong.

I don't think this is true of Ray. I don't think it's true of anyone but God. The rest of us have *opinions* about right and wrong. Only God *knows*.

The point Ray is making is that, somewhere between what you think is right, and what you think is wrong, there's a line. That line is in different places for different people, even among Christians who go to the same church. I bet you can find some Christians who think that masturbating while thinking about your spouse is always acceptable, or always wrong. Perhaps it matters whether the spouse is on a trip, or too depressed to be sexually active, or pregnant, or whatever.... If all these people draw the line in different places, all we can say with certainty is that we don't *know* where God draws the line, and we have no really clear answers.

I have always gotten the impression that sexual sins are focused on because many of them are easy to avoid, and because it's easy to mistake lust and desire for each other. I suspect that we'd do better, as Christians, to worry about ministering to the sick, and caring for the poor. Stuff that happens between consenting adults (or even "between" a single consenting adult, and no other people) may be sinful, but is frankly unimportant compared to the sins we ourselves commit when we sit around condemning people's sex lives instead of doing something *useful*.

This is a mote/beam situation. Contrary to popular belief, God does not kill a kitten every time someone masturbates. On the other hand, every time someone dies of starvation, a person just died.

Where should our priorities be?

 

[Rosa_Haji]

Yeah, maybe you have been there and done that, but I doubt you ever came to true faith.
Dave, that's quite a judgement call you just made. How can you presume to judge whether someone was a Christian or not?
BTW, I still think any christian who masturbates and has no moral lapse in conscience is not only in sin, but is also satan's monkey boy.

Satan's monkey boy?? Interesting label to give someone. I'm getting visions of that scene in "The Wizard of Oz",the one with the flying monkeys. When the Wicked Witch of the West tells the flying monkeys to..
"Get Dorothy..and her little dog too!!!"

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by seebs
The point Ray is making is that, somewhere between what you think is right, and what you think is wrong, there's a line. That line is in different places for different people, even among Christians who go to the same church.

Wow! I'm glad somebody understand my example.

This is a mote/beam situation. Contrary to popular belief, God does not kill a kitten every time someone masturbates. On the other hand, every time someone dies of starvation, a person just died.

Where should our priorities be?

Absolutely!

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Ray K

Wow! I'm glad somebody understand my example.

It's an easy one for me; I've spent a very large portion of my life being very frustrated that people can't understand that their "obvious" answers are purely personal.

There exist at least two people who are clearly devoted Christians who have different feelings on the topic of "what is the obvious moral truth of this question" for at least one moral issue.

Therefore, all we have is *opinions*, not Revealed Truth. Interpretation and study can improve our opinions, but only God knows the truth.

My opinion is that masturbation is falling out of favor as a sin, probably because it's been established that roughly 99% of men touch, and 1% lie about it.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Think of how narrow the margin is for what may be considered "acceptable mastrubation"...

Conditions:

Thoughts must be on your spouse.

Your spouse should be aware of them.

It must not be for self Gratification (a big one, because then.. what's really the point of it all?), whoch would lead to gratifiactiaon out soide of the marriage bond.

The last one there is the kicker.. Masturbation for self gratification is a sin.. the Bible is clear on this. It is a type of fornication.

"...he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body"

"abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul"

Also, to concentrate on ones self, with no thought of another is also a sin, the pride of life, as well as being self gratifying. This is especially wrong in a marriage situation, when you and your spouse are to be as one in everything.

We get a pisture of a very narrow margin of what is "acceptable", if thet margin even actually exists at all.

Can a person touch, without thnking of it as pleasing themselves; without thinking of anoyone but their spuse; and in keping with the holy bond of marriage, always keeping the their spuse as a part of the act?

I know I couldn't.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Rosa_Haji

Dave, that's quite a judgement call you just made. How can you presume to judge whether someone was a Christian or not?

Satan's monkey boy?? Interesting label to give someone. I'm getting visions of that scene in "The Wizard of Oz",the one with the flying monkeys. When the Wicked Witch of the West tells the flying monkeys to..
"Get Dorothy..and her little dog too!!!"

First, it is a big judgement call, but did you miss that he said he was not a christian? : "I am a theist/agnostic meaning I believe in God, not in Jesus or any or mythical god's. " No Jesus = no christian.

Second, the monkey boy thing was for fun. I am a very serious person when it comes to faith, but otherwise a goof at heart. So yeah, the flying monkeys from wizard of oz, thats you if you are a christian and believe that masturbation is not a sin.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Hank
DaveKervin01 - If you don't think this is a biblical issue, then what is!!?? Perhaps Jesus is not a biblical issue, would you agree? cough..sarcasm..cough.

No holy spirit huh, man you are missing out. Read the scriptures Hank, you will see the truth. - DaveKervin01End

Hank01 - You obviously didn't like my responses, well, counter my arguments via your Bible, do not derail the topic to convert me into Christianity. It wont happen. Been there/done that. - Hank01End

Dave02 - Hank, time to get off your high horse. Nothing in my responce required biblical proof. Consider for a moment that not everyone is against you.

And don't accuse me of trying to convert you, I didn't know that you were not a christian, excuse my assumption.
It seems that for reasons unknown, you hold bitterness towards the faith. Maybe I am wrong, but thats the way it looks. I hope I don't get associated with the type of people you have encountered in the past.

If you are offended by a christian telling you the truth, then maybe you should consider posting on a forum of a weak faith group, or of no faith at all. You know the message that christians have, so don't be suprized when you hear it. Yeah, maybe you have been there and done that, but I doubt you ever came to true faith. Maybe thats why you are here. Maybe you are not here just to give your view on masturbation. Maybe it bothers you that you are denying Jesus Christ. I didn't think that it bothered me, but I was lying to myself.

BTW, I still think any christian who masturbates and has no moral lapse in conscience is not only in sin, but is also satan's monkey boy. - DaveKevin02End

LOL who rides on the high horse again? Nothing you say requires biblical back up? What are you? Just like your imaginary leader, when he was out of thought let alone biblical reason out comes the word treasure! Satan's monkey boy, so anyone not getting the Holy Spirit and does not agree, as a Christian, to your guilt trip is possessed by the Devil?
So I say it again. Don't put your guilt trip on the people. Quote your bible and show why masturbation is wrong. I gave my biblical reasoning already why I think it is not an issue. Read it, and then tell me "Maybe you are not here just to give your view on masturbation." - Truthfully I feel sorry for you. You are haunted by the same doctrines the Asians/Greeks are/were. Stories invented by people with vivid imagination about the heavens.

1. You are the one who claimed masturbation is not a biblical issue. Why would you ask me to bring bible verses if you think bible verses are not relevant to the subject !!!???

2. When you asked me to use the bible to support what I was saying, I was no longer saying why touching yourself is a sin, I was responding to what YOU said. You said that masturbation is not a biblical issue, and I asked you why. Your responce was to tell me to use the Bible. You avoided the question and came with some lame answer telling me to use the Bible on why you think its a non biblical issue.

3. I did not say you were posessed by the devil. Whoever is not for Jesus Christ is against Jesus Christ. And if you are not for Jesus Christ, you are for the Devil.

4. I have no guilt trip to give, I present things as I see them, I do not need to rely on the weakness of the people. I am not haunted by an imagination of the heaven. I am linked with the only true God of the universe, the God that you deny as Lord.

5. A non-christian's view on the christian view of masturbation, interesting. Please restate your argument why masturbation is ok for a christian. I didn't follow your argument.

 

[Freodin]

If you don´t like it, don´t do it.

Masturbation is almost the most personal thing that I can think of. Why should I press my view on anyone, or accept anyones view for me?

It´s a thing solely between me and... well, me.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Originally posted by Ray K


What if you are imagining a sex act with your wife that you KNOW she would never perform herself? What if she's had breast implants in your imagination? Is that adulterous?

These may sound like flippant examples, but I'm trying to point out that drawing a line between "OK" masturbation and "sinful" masturbation is not as easy as you think.

Better play it safe. It's all sinful!!!

Flippant exmaples get you flippant results:

both of those cases, I would say it was a sin.. first, she would not condone the things oyu are thinkning, second, you are not thinking of your wife, but a fantasy you wish your wife to be...

 

[ruock]

then this scripture will have no value.

Leviticus 15: 16 prior to and after this verse.

Fluid movement is very important to the nervous system.

It is with the "issue" of that one who proclaims such a movement in which he becomes the resolution unto, through perversion or a physical/fleshly and sometimes unasked for natural awareness of sexual maturity/drive that stands in the way of "guilt" for perverted sense or natural release for that is human but refuses to understand that moderation is not perversion.

I am not advocating masturbation but I am suggesting that there is a difference between eating when your hungry and eating even though you are full. If you can't get full then find a hobby!!!

Anyway, wet dreams are not removed from anyone that live the life in the flesh. A wet dream would be to, secrete fluids while asleep disguarding any manipulation.

It is not a sin unto death to feel fleshly feelings but, if one demonstrates himself unto the public or in private, through his uncontrolable desire then, this person needs incarceration or counciling. inappropriate content makes one imagine that all women look like airbrushed images. I tell you it ain't so!!! LOL (in true respect to the women on board and neither are the men But I would not care to go there)

Think of yourself as this: The character of man is really not seen, it is determined within his privacy.