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A Serious Concern I have about Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by thereselittleflower, Aug 18, 2007.

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  1. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    And how will "THE MESSIAH" be known? There are only 2 verses in the old testament that use the term Messiah. Both are in Dan 9. How will that Messiah be known now that the genological records were destroyed?

    If 95% of scripture show that Jesus is the Messiah, having fulfilled his mission (It is finished) and 5% of some scriptures can be interpreted to a future Messiah of some type, do we rearrange the 95% to suite the 5% or do we re-consider the 5% and it's interpretation. Could it be because Christians do not crown him King and Lord of their lives, strain their ear for his voice.. with ready feet to abide and listen??? (preaching to myself at times)

    As concerning the millenial reign. Aside from the possiblilty that it is referring to the 'eternal life' reign since no flesh has lived over 1000 years, Why is it that we do not interpret that 1000 years to be 'the day of the lord' using Peters principle of 1000 years is as a day.??? We are so apt and insistant to use the day with the lord is as 1000 years, but why not the obverse? Is he not King of Peace now? Is there not internal peace within the believer?

    Those things being said, my current perspective is that there will be a similar judgement on the whole earth that occured to Jerusalem. This coincides with Israel and Jersualem so often being used as a type of the church and the world. This may or may not include similar oppression of the vipers, which is how the world is now progressing. Most of the world is under dominion of the monied elite/zionist Pharisees. Most but a remnant in the U.S and various countries who would be constitutionalists and most of the Arab countries. Iraq is falling to the paper based money and perhaps Afghanastan has also.
    But even so, It is the Christians duty to work against that oppression and against the "Vipers". Their influence in the U.S. continues onward. I would concede that there may be prophecies in the OT that could refer to the final judgement of earth, but I still presently have a 'a-millenial or pan-millenial view. And there are MANY who view Revelation as being written before the desolation of Jerusalem. Of this perspective I am considering as how it relates to the rest of Scripture.
    How would our interpretations be altered if Revelations was Printed in our Bibles Before the Gospels or right after the book of Acts.
    P.S. I am not willfully blind, and much less so than someone who denies Hebrew Parallelisms and yet claims to be a Old testament expert. ??

    Peace.
     
  2. holdon

    holdon Well-Known Member

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    So, now a 1000 years is eternal life? And Satan to be bound for a 1000 years and then released (for a little while) must then mean that "eternal life" is not really eternal?
     
  3. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    Present perspectives are apt to be refined. Some things seem to be more written in stone. :)
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This answer is nothing short of outrageous.

    Try Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, for starters. Then look at Matthew 24:27. Then check out Psalms 45:3-5, Micah 1:3-5, Joel 2:20, Joel 3:1-2, Joel 3:9-14, Isaiah 14:24-27, Isaiah 31:8-9, Isaiah 34:5-10, Isaiah 63:1-6, Jeremiah 49:20-22, Habakkuk 3:3-6, Malaciah 3:1-3, Revelation 16:12-16, and Revelation 19:19-21.

    Your percentages are all off. More like 40% of the scriptures about the coming of Christ (the Messiah) have not been fulfilled. And most of the scriptures about the future blessing of Israel have not been fulfilled. Look, for instance at Isaiah 10, where we are specifically told that the indignation against His people that dwell in Zion will cease in the destruction of the Assyrians. Compare this with the detailed account of the path the Assyrian will follow in Isaiah 10:28-33. History speaks exceedingly plainly that this is not the path that Sennacherib or any other ancient Assyrian followed through Judea.

    Again,look at the explicit description of the future borders of the land in Ezekiel 47 and 48. There is no way to even pretend that this was ever fulfilled. Likewise for Isaiah 4:3-4, Isaiah 11:12-14, Isaiah 19:22-24, Isaiah 49:22-23, Isaiah 66:18-20, Jeremiah 24:7, Jeremiah 31:7-9, Ezekiel 16:53-55, Ezekiel 20:33-38, Ezekiel 25:14, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Ezekiel 37:21-22, Ezekiel 38-39, Zephaniah 2:4-9, Zephaniah 3:11-12, Zechariah 9:13-15, Zechariah 12:6-14, and Micah 5:5-6.

    These prophecies, like numerous others, are too numerous and too explicit to escape with the trick of calling them Hebrew parallelisms, or to dismiss by calling them Hebrasims or figures of speach, as others say. Some, I think you are among them, say that these were conditional upon obedience, and that condition was never fulfilled. But my thread on the unfulfilled promise of Israel's repentance reviewed many explicit promises that Israel will eventually be brought to repentance.
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    :confused: Looks like the Jews will have a loooooong wait then. :)
    Btw, anyone want to discuss the Matt 24 thread?

    http://foru.ms/t6053725-matthew-24-and-revelation-study.html

    Matthew 9:3 And lo, certain of the scribes said within themselves, `This one doth blaspheme/blasfhmei <987>.'

    Mark 2:7 `Who this one thus is talking? He is blasheming/blasfhmiaV <988>. Who is able to forgive sins if no one--the God?'

    Revelation 16:9 and men were scorched with great heat, and they did blaspheme/eblasfhmhsan <987> (5656) of the Name of God, who hath authority over these scourges, and they did not reform--to give to Him glory.
     
  6. Micah68

    Micah68 Discerning

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    John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished.". With that he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

    Jesus died Victorious! He came fulfilling all he had come to do. Defeating sin by preforming the ultimate sacrifice. THIS is the main event prophesied in the OT. By faith, man is no longer separated from God, we are living in his presence and all we have to do is call out.

    This is my criteria for interpreting and why I have a hard time understanding dispensationalism. I do love looking up all the scripture submitted and studying it especially with all the Biblical resources available today via the Internet. i.e access to the Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew. This has turn into a really interesting discussion.

    ~Micah:)
     
  7. Micah68

    Micah68 Discerning

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    Oh yes, see you on the new thread.:)
     
  8. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    Again, these parallels between Revelations and other scriptures give good support are much apreciated. It would be cool to keep them in a file with the revelation verse listed and then other fulfilling verses beneath them. You could add to them as given insight. For example, this verse and it's reference to the scourges could have Isaiah 48 associated with it since it also uses the word scourges Overflowing scourges also has an immediate association in my mind to overspreading abominations in Dan 9:27.

    My percentages were/are not intended to be statutory, but do reflect a perspective of OT prophecies having been fulfilled or perhaps annulled as conditional to a 'national repentence' or find their fulfillment in the post cross Church of Christ. So, obviously, we are in disagreement. No surprise.

    In the 3 or 4 sections of scripture that have been presented as referring to this future kingdom of God, Isaiah 59, Isaiah 61, Isaiah 28, (and many other discussed in the new testament by the Apostles and Jesus) I am satisfied that they refer to this first coming and even become a support for the fulfillment. Thus I'm not really interested in continuing to do the same to more.

    Again, we obviously look through different lenses of different Rules of interpretation. One of the rules of dispensational interpretation is the seperation of the Church and Israel with respect to God's purposes. The problem is that it is a rule that dispensationalists founders have made up and teach their disciples. It is not a rule that is grown from inductive study and subsequent interpretation & application. Thus a dispensationalists reads OT prophecies with the belief in the continued seperation of the recipient of Gods blessings that never really was a seperation. Eph 2 covers this well. This is the need for their postponement of Daniels 70th week and the belief in a single anti-chirst type rather than the spirit that Disbelieves that Christ has come in the flesh (making a sacrifice once for all as Hebrews says)

    The law and the Israelites seeking to attain to the law was the barrier of enmity between Jew and the other nations. Eph 2 says that barrier has been broken down.

    Again, Pauls principles found in Gal 3 and 4, Ephesians 2 and 3, Most of Romans but especially Rom 9/10 and yes when inductively studied, Rom 11 directly infer that not only are the Promises now given to the seed of Christ, but that they always were given to that seed of Faith, even in the old testament. Gal 3:16 (Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ) Acts and the Gospels agree with this; Matt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. John 8:37-47, Jesus calls those of the gentic seed of Abraham sons of their father, Satan. Hmmm, how can that be??

    Eusebiuses "proof of the Gospel, book 2 sections 39-60, where he quotes the Old testament references to show that the promises were always to the elect of faith within Israel, not genetic Israel. I'm sure others have done similar works. In addition, Paul says that this was Gods true intention from the begining, that 'through you shall all the nations be blessed'. Eph 3:8-13

    Another foundational difference is that the meaning of Scripture needs to be discovered as it was first written to it's original audience only before applying any interpretation to our lives today. Dispensationalists and modern prophecy "EXPERTS" such as Hal Lindsey ;) seek to read scripture as if we are the only generation that it pertains to. I dont' know if this is only since 1948, but according to Blackstone who thought the early 1900's could be the first match that starts the fire, it seems as though it has followed dispensational teachers.

    An example of this would be to understand that Gabriel meant 490 consecutive years. Then recognizing and believing his supernatural power to foreknow and fulfill his word, we can also expect that power to accomplish salvation unto eternal life, and answer prayer according to His rules and laws of Prayer for the believer. Summed up in: Eph 3:20, Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us.

    Rather, a futurist will say that God didn't mean 490 consecutive years and rather than find blessings in it's fulfillment, seek the proposals that have been taught to him in a future fulfillment perspective and single man anti-christ, etc.

    I dont' expect you to change your mind easily or even to change your mind at all. You, Biblewriter especially have much reputation and status at stake (especially if you've published a book). But before I would continue to study or refute more OT prophecies concerning 'unfulfilled blessings of genetic, political or religious Israel, you would need to offer a rebuttal to Jesus, Paul and Lukes'(Acts 3:25) perspective that the promises Given to Abraham are to the seed of Abraham, (Jesus) and those of like faith,(Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousneess) according to HIS election and the purposes. Those promises are associated with the Gift of eternal life, but not to a genetic, national or political nation/state.
     
  9. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Thanks.
    How about the "WHIP" in Nahum which is also related to the word for scourge in Isaiah 28 on Judah/Jerusalem?

    http://www.scripture4all.org/

    Nahum 3:2 A sound of a Whip, And sound of the rattling of a wheel, And of a prancing horse, and of a bounding chariot, Of a horseman mounting. [Isaiah 28 "scourge"]

    Reve 16:21 and hail, great as talent weight is descending out of the heaven upon the mankind and blaspheme the mankind the God out of the Scourge/plhghV <4127> of the hail, that great is the scourge/plhgh <4127> of her/it, tremendous.

    Luke 12:47 `And that servant, who having known his lord's will, and not having prepared, nor having gone according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes],
    48 and he who, not having known, and having done things worthy of stripes/plhgwn <4127>, shall be beaten with few; and to every one to whom much was given, much shall be required from him; and to whom they did commit much, more abundantly they will ask of him.
     
  10. holdon

    holdon Well-Known Member

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    It is not only the dispensationalist founders who make this distinction. It all over the New Testament.
    You really think that dispensationalists are that stupid?
    Eph 2 speaks of a NEW entity, something that didn't exist before. Clearer separation there couldn't be.
    I would be interested to hear an historicist (or preterist) explain the 490 years....

    And for the rest I guess, the promised Land never existed, there was none.... All an illusion. Why was Christ born in Palestine? Never mind.
     
  11. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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  12. holdon

    holdon Well-Known Member

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    If you meant to say that the restoration of Israel will be by Pharisaic Jews, I have no such opinion. Not sure where you would get all this either. But it must be the "inductive" capacity running loose, I guess.
    Why then did Christ predict in His lifetime that He would build (future) His Church from the foundation up?
    There is no salvation other than through Christ. I reject the charge that dispensationalism teaches different salvations. But the Church, the building that Christ would build, also called His body, exists only since Pentecost.
    But the 70 weeks have been divided by Daniel himself, with specific events. Thus after 7+62=69 weeks, Daniel says the Messiah shall be cut off. This puts then Messiah's death at 69+- weeks. How some can then say, the 70 ended at the crucifixion is unintelligible to me. Further, I think most would agree that the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (Dan 9:26) refers to the events of 70AD. There is much more time than 7 years (1 week) between 34 and 70AD. In addition, it is said in the same verse that the "instability" (ie wars) would go on till the end. Only thereafter do we get to the last week in vs 27. Daniel says that the "he" (whoever you think he is, but it is "he who shall come", which means this "he" wasn't there in 70Ad) confirms an agreement for a week. (this obviously is the 70th week. This lasts till the "consumption". So, no matter how you slice it, Daniel creates a gap between the 69th and the 70th week, with very precise events being predicted.
    John the B didn't say that all the Christians would have to go to Israel to claim the promise of Abraham either.
     
  13. Micah68

    Micah68 Discerning

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    All of the above taken from 'Christian Zionism, Road map to Armageddon?' by Dr. Rev. Stephen Sizer
    vicar of Christ Church, Virginia Water, Surrey, and Chairman of the International Bible Society (UK).


    No where in the New Testament does it promise the Jewish temple to be rebuilt...a third time nor does the NT address a 2,000 year 'parenthesis' between its desecration and destruction. but then this gets off on another debate.
     
  14. holdon

    holdon Well-Known Member

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    Instead of listening to these conconctions, let's hear what the bible says:

    Mt 24:15 "When therefore ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which is spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in what is a holy place, (he that reads let him understand,)
    24:16 then let those who are in Judaea flee to the mountains;"

    Isnt' it clear from this passage alone, that when they would see the abomination standing in the holy place, that THEN it would be time to flee, etc..

    Therefore it is not "flee etc.. and then see the abomination" (like in 70AD) but the other way around. It would be cruel from Jesus indeed to mislead them, because for those that would have waited till they would see the Romans in the Temple, it was waaay too late. No, in the end, yet to come, the abomination will be in the temple and even the antichrist will take seat there:

    2 Thess 2:3 Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
    2:4 who opposes and exalts himself on hight against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    When that happens, it will be time for those in the land to flee and get out of there.

    But for 70AD they were warned here:

    Luke 21:20
    But when ye see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, then know that its desolation is drawn nigh. 21:21 Then let those who are in Judaea flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of it depart out, and those who are in the country not enter into it; 21:22 for these are days of avenging, that all the things that are written may be accomplished. 21:23 But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days, for there shall be great distress upon the land and wrath upon this people. 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the nations be fulfilled.
     
  15. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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  16. holdon

    holdon Well-Known Member

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  17. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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  18. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    quote=Notrash;38697572]


    [/quote]

    I'm not advocating that the 69th week began at Bethlehem, I'm just saying that there is significance to the name Messiah the Prince that help us determine when the 69 weeks end and the 70th week began.

    Well, first you said that the desolation described in vs 26 describes the destruction of the tabernacle and City, and that is by the People of the Prince who is (was) to come. The People who destroy the city and the Prince to come are joined together. (This idea of a restored Roman Empire just to accomplish a different idea of a different prince is much much more out of line than any Parallelism.) Then you would take the future covenant from verse 27 and apply it to a prince in verse 26 who is connected to the people who destroy the tabernacle and city.
    Quote:

    Because that is not how Parallelism are read. They are intended to be broken down according to their phrases and stanza's not read in Chronology.

    I think This type is called a CHIASM, but it could simply be a synonomous parallelism using 2 verses rather than all in the same verse.
    http://bibleforums.org/forum/archive/index.php?t-55348.html
    That AB=BA stepladder is called a Chiasm,3 pronounced kee-ahzum.
    Chiasms appear throughout Scripture, from Genesis to
    Revelation. What an author declares in the steps going up, he
    repeats in the steps going down. Here are two more chiasms, one
    two-step and one three-step: an ABC=CBA. They have been
    shortened for clarity, but the full text is in your Bible:

    Psa 68:15-16
    A. The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan.
    B. an high hill as the hill of Bashan.
    B. Why leap ye, ye high hills?
    A. this is the hill which God desireth to dwell...
    MAR 5:3-5
    A. Who had his dwelling among the tombs
    B. and no man could bind him,
    C. no, not with chains:
    C. he had been bound with chains,
    B. neither could any man tame him.
    A. And always he was in the tombs...

    In fact the book of Isaiah is said to be Parallelism with the first 33 chapters being repeated in the 2nd 33 chapters. I haven't investigated that claim yet.
    http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/Bifids_Chiasms.pdf
    1-5 Ruin and Restoration 34-35
    6-8 Biographical Information 36-40
    9-12 Blessings and Judgments 41-45
    13-23 About Gentile Nations 46-48
    24-27 Redemption and Deliverance 49-55
    28-31 Ethics and Sermons 56-59
    32-33 Restoration of Israel 60-66

    I see no reason that it should be read chronologically other than to willfully insert the Gap.

    The correct subject of the previous sentence is "the people who destroy the city" The "HE" cannot describe the people. In proper english and grammer it would re-introduce 'the prince' as the subject before using a pronoun for him. Those are the rules of grammer. Thus the "He" refers back to Messiah.

    I'm sorry that it changes things around for you. But this is semi-typical of Hebrew Parallelism in poetry. To me it is not 'changed around'. When you see similar wordings and phrases at the ends of the beginnings of the 2 verses and at the end of the 2 verses, then you begin to identify it as a Parallelism. I think the Holy Spirit did this to magnify himself and show that the writing was inspired. Human invention could not write in such a way and be accurate.
    I see no reason whatsoever to split the 69th and 70th week. It is not supported by the intent of the vision or the intent of the text. It's almost as if you put a gap between the 2 verses that are joined in poetry. As the one Rabbii said; "it is a very 'forced' perspective.

    Neither did Jerusalem stay dead (physically speaking), but to read only the first words it would indicate that 70 weeks were given to Daniels and the city to exist. But the intent is that 70 weeks was given for Daniels People and the holy city to accomplish the 6 listed items.

    And these were all acomplished during the 70 weeks ending with Christ and the teaching of the disciples in the holy city. The fact that God has brought these things to pass does not mean that the Pharisee sect died off, or that Daniels people died off, it just means the end of levitical law and tabernacle/sacrifices and the end of the need for the geneology of the Jews. The tabernacle was filled with types of Christ and the Jewish lineage brought in and confirmed the Messiah. The destruction of the geneological records was very symbolic of the end of the importance of the geneological seedline and the segregation of jew/gentile.

    You can see how one man attributes these 6 things to have been accomplished.
    http://www.letgodbetrue.com/daniel/daniel-09.htm
     
  19. Micah68

    Micah68 Discerning

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    'Then' also translates 'at that time'

    I am not understanding your argument.......
     
  20. Micah68

    Micah68 Discerning

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