A self proclaimed "Saved Calvinist" commits murder in the morning...

[reformed05]

Yeah, screaming is always a good way to show you don't care, lol

Not screaming. Did you hear me? I am emphasizing words that are crucial for you to pay particular attention. Caps is easier on my device than switching to bold or italics. My apologies to your ears.

 

[S.ilvio]

Ahhhh! Dogs are wonderful. Max is wonderful. Mine is a Dutch Shepherd,Boaz. You probably see more of them where you are than in the US. Sorry. Way off topic!

Shepherds of all types are class dogs...

 

[renniks]

There’s no other rational choice. As sheep we follow the Shepherd.

No, in calvinist doctrine, there is no other choice, rational or otherwise.

 

[renniks]

Even if that were true in Reformed Theology, WHICH IT IS NOT OR IS GROSSLY MISSTATED (on purpoe) but even if it were shouldn't you STILL BE GRATEFUL THAT GOD SAVED YOU?! Why exactly is it SO important that YOU get to choose.

Of course I should still be grateful. But what you seem to miss is, am I supposed to be grateful that someone else was never given a chance? One of my own children, perhaps? Don't you understand that that is what individual election means? The majority of people never get a choice?

 

[Hammster]

No, in calvinist doctrine, there is no other choice, rational or otherwise.

Here’s your chance to prove it.

The New “No Straw Man” challenge

 

[reformed05]

I

Of course I should still be grateful. But what you seem to miss is, am I supposed to be grateful that someone else was never given a chance? One of my own children, perhaps? Don't you understand that that is what individual election means? The majority of people never get a choice?

I will attempt to abstain from the caps.
The concerns you voiced in this post finally gets to one of the reasons why people hate this theology and will fight tooth and nail to PROVE it is false. I am not saying this as a criticism. It is absolutely understandable and human. We, all humans, have such a love of and concern for the well being of our children and others the we love, we need to have a sense of at least some control over their final destination. Some way that we can influence that, something that we cm give them to make them safe. It is more comfortable to us s humans to trust in ourselves to influence the outcome, rather than a God we cannot see and cannot control. Again. Not an indictment. I have experienced the same fear.
I am not saying these things to advocate for Reformed Theology. Just explaining some things from my point of view and partly in hope that we can end his ongoing friction between us. I apologize for my own unkind words in our exchanges.
I absolutely believe that it is immaterial to God whether we think He chose us or we chose Him. So we really don't need to be fighting about it.
In my own life I have come to terms with the frightening possibilities of not being in control of the spiritual safety of those I love. I have learned to trust God in this because I understand Reformed Theology from the inside, which no one, no matter how informed, in the outside can, and even many I suspect, who are Reformed. It comes through a lot of time spent with God an in His word. I should say, for me it did.
I have learned on deep level that God hears me, loves me, and loves those I love. Also, He has a recorded, revealed history of saving FAMILIES. (sorry. That caps seemedso necessary). I pray for the unsaved. I make sure my loved ones hear the gospel and I never, never "preach" the gospel couching it within predestination or the elect. I don't think that is wise and it certainly isn't necessary . Hearing the gospel is all that is needed, irregardless of which side of the free will issue we believe.
If course we should never be grateful that we are saved and others are not. The tension between gratitude over our own salvation and grief over the lost is a tough one as they are both legitimate feelings, required even as God's children, and a opposite feelings it is hard to even imagine both existing at the same time in the same place, namely, us. I have found it manageable through prayer and trust. I must, because of what I truly believe the Bible teaches. And by knowing the character of God. That He is always good and always just and always perfect and always righteous so I am able to submit to however He does things., Even though I may not actually like it.
But that is me, nd how I understand things. That does not mean it is the only way, or that what you believe is not valid. I can only judge my own beliefs, not anyone else. And that is what I mean when I say that I don't care what you believe. I don't mean I don't care about you. Only that what you believe is not within my jurisdiction and I don't have one single problem with you believing what you do.
the only thing that has bothered me in these types of threads is the incorrect things people have said about what I believe. So probably should stop reading them.

 

[renniks]

make sure my loved ones hear the gospel and I never, never "preach" the gospel couching it within predestination or the elect.

Why? If that's the truth, why hide it?

 

[reformed05]

Why? If that's the truth, why hide it?

still want to argue I see. Not hiding it. If faith comes by believing the gospel, whether you make the choice by free will or God by grace changes our enmity against Him so we are willing and able to choose Him makes not one iota of difference in whether you are saved or not. To begin by telling people only the chosen or elect will be saved when they understand nothing of salvation is to trying to go too far, too fast potentialy. No one believes God would choose them. They stop listening. What reformed teaches about predestination is something that comes usually, with growth. When you are spiritually mature enough to understand it. If it comes at all and I'm guesing, since most don't arrive at Reformed Theology, that to God it is not necessary. It is more of a private relationship between a person and God. And I am profoundly grateful that I did get it as in the process I became smaller in my own eyes and God bigger. Again. Just my experience. So when you continually attempt to tear down and dismantle my beliefs, you are messing around what is between God and me. A place you have no business meddling in or even being. Pause and think about that.
It says a lot about you that out of everything I said in my last post to you all you could focus on was something you could use to once again find fault. You thought you should now criticize the way in which I evangilize, judging me.
Peace

 

[renniks]

ou thought you should now criticize the way in which I evangilize, judging me.

Nope, it's a genuine question, that genuinely puzzles me. Calvinists say that Calvinism IS the gospel. That's what I'm constantly told by them, yet they tend to hide what their theology actually teaches. If God gets as much glory from someone NOT repenting... (See, I can use caps too.)...then whether they come to God or not, he is glorified. And, at any rate, in your system, they are either fated to believe or not, so nothing you can tell them could change that. This is what I mean by saying ya'll don't take it to it's logical conclusion. Most of you don't even act like it's true. It's often preached in code. I mean, most people don't know what all you mean, when you talk about sovereign grace, etc. So, what happens is that the frog (the unsuspecting believer who is neither arminian nor Calvinist) is slowly brought to a boil, and one day he either wakes up reformed or he revolts once he understands the real message.

 

[reformed05]

Nope, it's a genuine question, that genuinely puzzles me. Calvinists say that Calvinism IS the gospel. That's what I'm constantly told by them, yet they tend to hide what their theology actually teaches. If God gets as much glory from someone NOT repenting... (See, I can use caps too.)...then whether they come to God or not, he is glorified. And, at any rate, in your system, they are either fated to believe or not, so nothing you can tell them could change that. This is what I mean by saying ya'll don't take it to it's logical conclusion. Most of you don't even act like it's true. It's often preached in code. I mean, most people don't know what all you mean, when you talk about sovereign grace, etc. So, what happens is that the frog (the unsuspecting believer who is neither arminian nor Calvinist) is slowly brought to a boil, and one day he either wakes up reformed or he revolts once he understands the real message.

I don't know most people, so can't speak for them though I guess you do., Therefore can speak for them. I know this, you don't know what we believe yet you keep telling us what that is. I have also figured out that YOU don't know what the gospel is. You think it is all this extraneous nonsense that has nothing to do with ACTUAL salvation. How many times do I have to say to you that it DOESN'T MATTER to God and certainly doesn't matter to me whether someone believes they came to God of their own free will or if they believe they were chosen by God. All that matters is that they believe the gospel. And the gospel, the good news, is this:
Jesus is the son of God,
Son of man
He was born of a virgin
He lived a perfect and Holy life, tempted as we are but without sin.
He went willingly to die on the cross, the death of a sinner, to satisfy the wrath of God against those who believe in Him
His righteousness is IMPUTED
to believers
He is the only one qualified to do this and the only hope for mankind.
That is the gospel.
So you can just keep on the way you are, making the whole of your walk with God, apparently, about shouting about your superior intellect and the evilness and inferiority of those who think differently than you. I tried to get you to be reasonable and fair, I tried to diffuse this interaction, but you would have none of it. You are stubborn and stiff necked. That is if I use the language of scripture. My own personal, though no doubt I'll get called in it while you go on your merry way. Being beligerant, and consecending, attacking others beliefs; if it were up to me, I'd call you a moron.
Goodbye

 

[renniks]

So you can just keep on the way you are, making the whole of your walk with God, apparently, about shouting about your superior intellect and the evilness and inferiority of those who think differently than you. I tried to get you to be reasonable and fair, I tried to diffuse this interaction, but you would have none of it. You are stubborn and stiff necked. That is if I use the language of scripture. My own personal, though no doubt I'll get called in it while you go on your merry way. Being beligerant, and consecending, attacking others beliefs; if it were up to me, I'd call you a moron.
Goodbye

Ok then, I'm even more puzzled. What is it you're so upset about, if none of this matters? I'm telling you what I see happening, and what happened to me, and asking real questions, which somehow makes me a moron?

 

[renniks]

Jesus is the son of God,
Son of man
He was born of a virgin
He lived a perfect and Holy life, tempted as we are but without sin.
He went willingly to die on the cross, the death of a sinner, to satisfy the wrath of God against those who believe in Him
His righteousness is IMPUTED
to believers
He is the only one qualified to do this and the only hope for mankind.
That is the gospel.

I agree. Except it was not only to satisfy God's wrath, but also to ensure Satan's ultimate defeat. And to provide atonement for whosoever will believe.

 

[reformed05]

Ok then, I'm even more puzzled. What is it you're so upset about, if none of this matters? I'm telling you what I see happening, and what happened to me, and asking real questions, which somehow makes me a moron?

I said goodbye. Could you please just stop. Bother someone ese. I am ignoring you now.

 

[Radagast]

He remains unrepentant until Judgement Day. Is Salvation guaranteed for him..?

Thomism is almost identical to Calvinism, but perfectly Catholic. It may make more sense to you.

And in answer to the OP, saying "I am saved" does not make me saved.

 

[Radagast]

Calvinists [...] tend to hide what their theology actually teaches.

Well, no, they don't.

I mean, most people don't know what all you mean, when you talk about sovereign grace, etc.

The well-known Calvinist preachers spend a great deal of time explaining phrases like that, actually.

the unsuspecting believer who is neither arminian nor Calvinist

There is no "middle ground" between Calvinism and Arminianism, although you can go more extreme at both ends (i.e. hyper-Calvinism and Open Theism).

The beliefs of most people who say that they occupy the "middle ground" almost always turn out to be classic Arminianism.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I


I will attempt to abstain from the caps.
The concerns you voiced in this post finally gets to one of the reasons why people hate this theology and will fight tooth and nail to PROVE it is false. I am not saying this as a criticism. It is absolutely understandable and human. We, all humans, have such a love of and concern for the well being of our children and others the we love, we need to have a sense of at least some control over their final destination. Some way that we can influence that, something that we cm give them to make them safe. It is more comfortable to us s humans to trust in ourselves to influence the outcome, rather than a God we cannot see and cannot control. Again. Not an indictment. I have experienced the same fear.
I am not saying these things to advocate for Reformed Theology. Just explaining some things from my point of view and partly in hope that we can end his ongoing friction between us. I apologize for my own unkind words in our exchanges.
I absolutely believe that it is immaterial to God whether we think He chose us or we chose Him. So we really don't need to be fighting about it.
In my own life I have come to terms with the frightening possibilities of not being in control of the spiritual safety of those I love. I have learned to trust God in this because I understand Reformed Theology from the inside, which no one, no matter how informed, in the outside can, and even many I suspect, who are Reformed. It comes through a lot of time spent with God an in His word. I should say, for me it did.
I have learned on deep level that God hears me, loves me, and loves those I love. Also, He has a recorded, revealed history of saving FAMILIES. (sorry. That caps seemedso necessary). I pray for the unsaved. I make sure my loved ones hear the gospel and I never, never "preach" the gospel couching it within predestination or the elect. I don't think that is wise and it certainly isn't necessary . Hearing the gospel is all that is needed, irregardless of which side of the free will issue we believe.
If course we should never be grateful that we are saved and others are not. The tension between gratitude over our own salvation and grief over the lost is a tough one as they are both legitimate feelings, required even as God's children, and a opposite feelings it is hard to even imagine both existing at the same time in the same place, namely, us. I have found it manageable through prayer and trust. I must, because of what I truly believe the Bible teaches. And by knowing the character of God. That He is always good and always just and always perfect and always righteous so I am able to submit to however He does things., Even though I may not actually like it.
But that is me, nd how I understand things. That does not mean it is the only way, or that what you believe is not valid. I can only judge my own beliefs, not anyone else. And that is what I mean when I say that I don't care what you believe. I don't mean I don't care about you. Only that what you believe is not within my jurisdiction and I don't have one single problem with you believing what you do.
the only thing that has bothered me in these types of threads is the incorrect things people have said about what I believe. So probably should stop reading them.

Hey... sorry to butt in here, but I'd like to for a quick second if that's okay.

I'm totally with you - the greatest fear I ever experienced in my entire life; and I faced a great many terrifying things in my life, was the fear I felt at the realization of the utter and complete sovereignty of God, not just over "the universe and it's workings" but over my life personally too.. when I saw God's Hand in every aspect of the events and things that ultimately led to me salvation I was so scared I couldn't move.. couldn't think and likely nearly forgot to breathe..

and yes, I can see fighting that tooth and nail... scratching and clawing to get control again, even if only for control perceived in the mind.

But here's what I think (and it is just a thought, but it's a fairly strong one)

I think it matters... I think knowing God as God matters, and it is the foundation that shapes everything else about your faith, and ultimately even what "God" you worship. One of your own creation and construct, or the God of the Heavens and the earth.

Anytime you begin ignoring the half your in danger of creating a God more to your liking, and I don't think that's right.

We can't deny we chose God from our own heart and our own wills (they don't call it irresistible Grace for nothing!) but we know we came from nothing, we were dead and God came, brought us life and introduced Himself, in a manner of speaking, and that it took a spiritual sledgehammer for most of us to get to the truth, and it was a hammer not in our hand, but in His..

I think knowing that ends up shaping a faith so different to others it's almost a different faith at times..like there's these people over here, and then us..

I honestly don't know what to do with those thoughts always.. or how I'm supposed to think or feel about it, but I do think it makes serious foundational differences that at some point spiral so distant from one another its just strange we all call ourselves followers of Christ.

I suppose we all do in our own way and ultimately it's to HIM to judge the right of it.. but I think it matters, quite a lot.

 

[reformed05]

Hey... sorry to butt in here, but I'd like to for a quick second if that's okay.

I'm totally with you - the greatest fear I ever experienced in my entire life; and I faced a great many terrifying things in my life, was the fear I felt at the realization of the utter and complete sovereignty of God, not just over "the universe and it's workings" but over my life personally too.. when I saw God's Hand in every aspect of the events and things that ultimately led to me salvation I was so scared I couldn't move.. couldn't think and likely nearly forgot to breathe..

and yes, I can see fighting that tooth and nail... scratching and clawing to get control again, even if only for control perceived in the mind.

But here's what I think (and it is just a thought, but it's a fairly strong one)

I think it matters... I think knowing God as God matters, and it is the foundation that shapes everything else about your faith, and ultimately even what "God" you worship. One of your own creation and construct, or the God of the Heavens and the earth.

Anytime you begin ignoring the half your in danger of creating a God more to your liking, and I don't think that's right.

We can't deny we chose God from our own heart and our own wills (they don't call it irresistible Grace for nothing!) but we know we came from nothing, we were dead and God came, brought us life and introduced Himself, in a manner of speaking, and that it took a spiritual sledgehammer for most of us to get to the truth, and it was a hammer not in our hand, but in His..

I think knowing that ends up shaping a faith so different to others it's almost a different faith at times..like there's these people over here, and then us..

I honestly don't know what to do with those thoughts always.. or how I'm supposed to think or feel about it, but I do think it makes serious foundational differences that at some point spiral so distant from one another its just strange we all call ourselves followers of Christ.

I suppose we all do in our own way and ultimately it's to HIM to judge the right of it.. but I think it matters, quite a lot.

Hey, fine if you "butt" in. It is a relief to not hear vitriol against what I believe!
on the issue of whether or not it matters to God in which way we believe, whether we arrive at salvation of our own free will or that it was all done by God's choice. I don't know, not really. There is no doubt that it changes how we view God and almost everything else in regards to how we interpret what the Bible says. And it absolutely seems like two different Gods. The God of the free will appears to me even to be a God made in their own image, one they like better. And that when they say they are defending God, they are actually defending what they want Him to be. They think they are explaining evil in the world in a way that protects the love that is God. Followed through, their argument however falls apart. For the same reason that our legal system finds people culpable who stand by while another is murdered or harmed, when they had the power and ability to stop what was happening.
And yes, when Reformed Theology was presented to me and I began to study it, check it agaisnt scripture, and understand it, all the work that Jesus did and even the magnitude of who He is, penetrated my heart in a way it never had before. It was akin to Jobs statement to God, " Before I had heard of You, but now I have seen You. " things that before were words I knew the meaning of and believed now pierced me to the quick. Grace. Mercy. Justification. Atonement. Propitiation. I understood them. And yes, it made me breathless with gratitude and humility. I became moldable and pliable in His hands and also a tremendous burden was lifted off me. God loves you actually Meant something. Jesus's sacrifice for me actually became personal. Being in Christ, dying and being raised with Him was no longer confusing as to its meaning. He knew me by name and everything about me when He hung on that cross. He did it for me.
I think what many don't know or choose to ignore is that the free will issue being a majority, pretty much all that is taught us a new thing. The argument has continued for many centuries and the arminius argument pronounced heresy at the Synod of Dort. Bu t free will only became rampant in American churches in 1790-1840 with Charles Finney and his pseudo awakening. God wasn't crucial for salvation. You could get people there through means. Thus the emotional revivals and the altar call.
Part of my ambivalence on whether only faith matters to God ( from my point of view, if a person has faith, God gave it to them, so what they believe about HOW that came about is not an issue as far s salvation goes); is that the first 23 years of my 43 years as a Christian I had only heard of free will. Nothing opposing this ever crossed my path. Yet I truly did believe all that is contained within the necessary things to believe about Jesus. In the day it happened, and something DID happen, I knew that I had found the truth and there was no possibility of my ever wavering from this truth. I persevered in other words. And most of the Christians I know adhere to free will and they have persevered and it is obvious that they will continue to do so.
Thethe other reason is that we do not know what is in the hearts of minds of anyone, only God does.
Nor are we qualified to make a judgement on the salvation of anyone. It is way outside our jurisdiction.
I was looking for something when Reformed Theology was first presented to me, and I didn't know what it was. I could only voice it as "I want to hear about God". I wasn't even sure what I meant. I attended church and liked the church and the people but something was missing I heard about God in relationship really of what we get from Him but nothing About Him. It seemed there must be something deeper. Quite by "accident" someone gave my brother a book by James Kennedy and he said this book will change everything to which I replied there was no such book. He just smiled. I read it. Page one, I discovered that it was about God, not people, God, and finally knew what I meant. Thus the journey began.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I was looking for something when Reformed Theology was first presented to me, and I didn't know what it was. I could only voice it as "I want to hear about God". I wasn't even sure what I meant. I attended church and liked the church and the people but something was missing I heard about God in relationship really of what we get from Him but nothing About Him. It seemed there must be something deeper. Quite by "accident" someone gave my brother a book by James Kennedy and he said this book will change everything to which I replied there was no such book. He just smiled. I read it. Page one, I discovered that it was about God, not people, God, and finally knew what I meant. Thus the journey began.

May God be with you always brother..

 

[reformed05]

May God be with you always brother..

Sister. But thanks.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Sister. But thanks.

Oops, sorry...