1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. We are holding our 2022 Angel Ministry Drive now. Please consider signing up, or if you have any questions about being an Angel, use our staff application form. The world needs more prayer now, and it is a great way to help other members of the forums. :) To Apply...click here

A second look at Dr Peter Bolt's view of Jesus going TO the Ancient of Days

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by eclipsenow, Mar 21, 2022.

  1. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

    +1,509
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    Yeah, we're getting off topic. this thread is meant to be about Matt 24. We started discussing Revelation because people keep bringing in their assumptions about Revelation and writing them all over Matt 24. Most of your post above was based on your assumptions about Revelation, not justifying those assumptions. John tells us how to read Revelation in the first chapter - and you keep bypassing that.

    How are we to even approach Revelation in the first place? I'm convinced John tells us how to read his book 4 times in the first chapter - and it's about and to his generation of Christians - and from there for all Christians moving forward through history.

    1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (Verse 1)
    This is different to the normal 'Jesus is coming back soon' and 'Today is the day of salvation' call. This is specific. Soon TAKE PLACE. Particular things are about to happen, and John wants to write about them.

    2. "blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3)
    That is, he wants them to meditate on it and obey it. How do you obey something written about and to people thousands of years later? Forget that - how do you even understand it? Imagine getting this message?
    "On Mars most red in the year 4000 AD, the Zorg will Zazzle the Marines in Valles Marineris - and the smoke will rise to the heavens." Now obey this! See, if the command is not to you or about you - you cannot obey it. Period. There's nothing to take to heart, nothing to understand about you and your suffering. So how on earth do you obey this? You can barely even comprehend it - and even if you could - it's not to your and your situation or even about you. John's generation couldn't obey it. Not only that, what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years - it's not about or to them - so how do they benefit? If anything makes me reject futurist readings of Revelation it is that it would render the majority of Revelation as utterly useless to Christians across the last 2000 years - and do nothing except confuse us and make us argue. That's simply NOT in the mission statement of Scripture as we read it in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
    3. "because the time is near." (Verse 3)
    How many times does John have to say it in the one chapter for futurists to understand? I know it's exciting if Revelation is about us and our times. But surely there's a bit of narcissism in wanting it to be all about us? Surely there's a bit of a Messiah-complex we have as well, where WE want to be the ones that decode it FOR REAL THIS TIME (unlike the 10,000 other failed predictions and timelines out there). I think many of us want to be like Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies - full of certainty and dreadful purpose for the next few years. Fun movies - but give me a break! We are meant to be driven by Jesus' mission for the world - not endless arguing over our own navel gazing about what Revelation 'means to us'.
    4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." ( ESV - Verse 9)
    John is already in the tribulation. It's already started - and John wants them to understand what to do ('endure with patient endurance' - a catchphrase through out the book - HINT HINT!) and what it means that God's chosen children should suffer like this. He wants them to obey it for real - because he's right there with them.

    The futurist objects: "But the world has NEVER seen the stuff described in Revelation!" But it has. They're just not reading the symbols correctly. Hebrew number symbolism starts right back in the Old Testament and includes such devices as a disaster hitting one third of something (the world, the trees, the people). It means that it took a great number, but in God's grace more were left untouched than were destroyed. That's all. Like *most* Jewish number symbolism, it's not literal or numeric. It's theological - it means something else. Apocalyptic literature was common 200BC to 200AD - and has many other recognisable Jewish number and animal and other symbols. It is clearly a letter of encouragement John wrote to God's people about to suffer under Roman persecution. But not only that, there are temptations to despair when nature is also in chaos, natural disasters happen, persecution from tyrants break out and yet the wealth and security of the State call you to trust in Rome / Babylon / America / Australia / North Korea.
    The futurist objects: "But how can we obey it if it's not about us?" Yet they don't object like this about any gospel or epistle. Corinthians was written to a specific church in a specific place with particular issues. We learn how to do the hermeneutics, and learn what it meant to the first century Christians in Corinth and what the underlying principles are that apply today. We are meant to do the same for Revelation. In fact, persecuted Christians that have read it this way have been greatly encouraged for 2000 years. Indeed, I've heard how Christians suffering Muslim persecution LAUGH AT at the idea John would turn around to his generation and say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" That's just absurd - and again goes against 2 Timothy 3:16-17's principle of giving the church back then everything they need.
    The futurist objects: "But doesn't it become boring if it isn't about us?"
    Revelation has been an encouragement for suffering Christians for the last 2000 years and when understood correctly, the imagery is a powerful warning against offending our God. It's terrifying! It also shouldn't surprise us that we're in a time of Covid 19 and natural disasters and climate change.
    The futurist objects: "But I WANT to know what's going to happen!"
    Too bad. God doesn't tell us. That's what all those parables were about after Matthew 24 - the thief in the night, the Days of Noah, the master returning to the bad servant, the maidens tending to their lamps, the parable of the talents - all tell us to be busy with God's work, trusting in Jesus, not slackening off and losing our faith precisely because we DO NOT know and ARE NOT given any warning as to when Jesus will return.

    Revelation is not a timetable of events. It's not a linear story. It's not a forward march. It's a waltz - going around and around various themes. One chapter will cover the suffering brought on by war, then finish with images reminding us to stay true to Jesus because he's coming back! This is Judgement Day in Chapter 6. And just to highlight how we cannot read it as a linear timeline, Judgement Day happens again in Chapters 19 and 20! Revelation shows the one magnificent event from 3 different camera angles, focussing on different theological emphasis. It's not a timeline - and never was meant to be. Indeed, how does one even obey a timetable? What is there in it to 'take to heart'? No wonder futurist's get themselves in a knot and can't agree on almost a single thing!
    Reading it properly will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast'. It will stop them being distracted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Instead they'll find that as their timetables for the 'Last Days' get smaller, the gospel itself gets bigger and bolder. They'll live for Christ's mission more, and their own navel-gazing less. They'll be less prone to every wind of the latest tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. They'll be more realistic about life, wiser in their planning, and encouraging to all.

    To understand further, I recommend these 2 videos - 4 million views and rising.





    To go deeper try Dr Paul Barnett - Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop.
    "Apocalypse Now and Then".
    https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
     
  2. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

    +1,509
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    This thread is about Matt 24. If you want me to even read your church and state posts, try copying and pasting them over here. (I did ask that before).
    Given the Crusades etc, what do you make of the idea of a Christian State?
     
  3. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

    946
    +506
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Yes, he does and I could accuse you of doing the very same thing.

    Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    That's the entire key right there. Christ returns on the Lord's day which is just another way of saying the day of the Lord. Common sense alone tells us the 7th trump has just sounded. John is then told to write about the past, present and future of that day. That's it. That's the key to understanding the time table.

    That's not even a true statement.

    Christ has foretold us "all things" It's all there thank God!




    You can have your thread back, no problem. I'm looking for serious bible discussions because I'm strictly a scripture person. All that mumbo jumbo you just posted has nothing to do with serious bible discussion, chapter by chapter and verse by verse. We only bring up Revelation because many of us believe it goes hand in hand with Matthew 24. We are given the events that lead up to Christ's return in Revelation. You chose to ignore important questions about that. Telling me that you don't really have an answer. And I was really curious how you saw those verses. Instead it's always "this is just a sermon", etc. That's not a serious answer.

    You're also generalizing full groups of people with that big wall of text. People want to know certain truths and it's all laid out. We can't push people out of the bible. It's all of importance no matter what you believe. And if we can't have a conversation about certain verses pertaining to Christ's return I should move on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2022
  4. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

    +1,509
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    Umm, no. Here's a better approach to that verse.

    Rev 1:10​
    1:10 in the Spirit. The Spirit provides John with the special visions and transports him to vantage points to view them (4:2; 17:3; 21:10).

    the Lord’s day. Sunday, the Christian day of worship celebrating Christ’s resurrection. The Sunday celebration anticipates the celebration of God’s final victory (19:1–10).

    loud voice. The voice of Christ. Loud voices and noises indicate the power and universal relevance of the messages and events (1:15; 4:1, 5; 5:2, 12; 6:1; 7:2, 10; 8:5, 13; 10:3; 11:12, 15, 19; 12:10; 14:7, 9, 15, 18; 19:1, 3, 6, 17).

    Rev 1:10 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

    I'm mystified as to why you think "Common sense alone tells us...." that the 7th trumpet has something to do with this passage. It sounds like something pulled out of context and shoved over the passage. It's all a bit chaotic.

    Rather, the passage is actually quite clear and one of the easier chapters of Revelation to understand.
    John says "what must soon take place", they must "take to heart what is written in it", because "The time is near" and he is their "partner in the tribulation" - but you just bypass all that and shove something from a completely different chapter over it? :scratch:

    Nothing you have said undoes the fact that John is writing an urgent message to those 7 churches about their persecution and the tribulation that he already shares.

    I mean, Do you have a Phd in Ancient Roman history? In theology? In Hebrew symbolic literature? The people I'm quoting do.

    If not - who are you to say "mumbo jumbo" - especially when you just did a magic hand wave of a 7th trumpet out of context that achieved absolutely nothing? THAT'S your argument? Sounds like an argument from complete and utter silence. :doh:


    If the majority of Revelation is about us, then John was a horrible pastor. He wrote to his generation and basically said, "Hey, you think you're having a bad time - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
     
  5. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

    895
    +175
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I'm sorry, brother, this is so far removed from what I was saying that I can't even fathom what you are saying? I said that Jews may like to see the "nations" descending from Abraham as being literal children from different wives evolving into nations literally descended from Abraham.

    But Paul indicates that Abraham's fatherhood is spiritual, and determined by our faith in Christ. It as a prediction, I think, that there would be many Christian nations. Maybe you can explain how your view is different from mine, as I just described it?
     
  6. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    +511
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    The verse is not about a spiritual application. Else we have spiritual Muslim nations. Spiritual Christian nations, and spiritual Judaism nations. You cannot just say Christianity is only spiritual. You have equated a religion not the spiritual family of God. God's family is without observation as a kingdom/government.

    You are going to find it hard to convince any religious person their religion is not a spiritual belief system. The world actually calls all three religions Abrahamic. They see all three as extensions of Abraham's offspring. You may not see it that way, but many do.
     
  7. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

    946
    +506
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    This is your entire problem. This is man's tradition, not God or the bible. John never called Sunday the Lord's day. Not once. He called the first day of the week just that -the first day of the week. No one has ever called Sunday the Lord's day in the bible. The Lord's day is just another way of saying the day of the Lord. If we are to believe what you're saying John would have said "I was in the spirit on the first day of the week" And most importantly he was in the "spirit" he wasn't just sitting there on a Sunday afternoon.

    When we start putting in men's traditions into the bible, we make void the true word of the God.


    Some of those in the church will be thrown into prison by the "devil" That is future no matter how much symbolism you apply to it. We know this because it's by their very own testimony that they are to overcome him. And they loved not their lives to the death. No one needs a PHD for simple reading comphrension.

    Much of it is about us. Has Christ returned? No, then much of it is about us, but go on and believe otherwise.

    Christ says he comes quickly, has he returned? No. You have to realize God sees time differently than us. You keep calling John a pastor and Revelation a sermon. This is Christ's Revelation, not John's. And as I said, it's prophesy, not a sermon. John was told to write the things he saw in the time frame of the Lord's day. (future to us) You can keep thinking he was somehow on Sunday as if that has any revelance or makes sense. But he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day (day of the Lord) he just heard a trumpet and he sees Christ.

    Chaotic for some but the 7th trump brings on the Lord's day/Day of the Lord/Day of Christ. Same day. So that's why I said common sense alone should tell us the 7th trump has just sounded. It doesn't make sense to you because you've been so influenced by men's traditions it's hard to see what's actually written there.

    I've been there, I used to believe in a pretrib rapture, among other doctrines I've since dropped because as I said I'm strictly a scripture girl. If something can't be backed up in the Bible, I won't believe it.

    That's why I earnestly wanted your views on the Beast and the FP and them getting thrown into the LOF immediately "after" Christ returns in chapter 19.And then in 20, we see very clearly there are still in the LOF. So Christ would have to have returned. Again that's common sense. That's why many of us don't believe that we are in a symbolic 1000 year period at this time. That's one of my biggest sticking points and it is for others as well. But you could not give me direct serious answer. Just another wall of text on how to read Revelation. That does not answer the question about the Beast and the FP and how they relate to Christ's return. If you're an expert on "how to read" Revelation, I would think you would have an answer. You obviously have read it, right? So you would have to have some sort of opinion or belief on those verses. But no, you didn't.


    I'm starting to believe we're not even talking about the same book.

    Revelation 10:11 "And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

    This book is for everyone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
  8. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    +511
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    The 7th Trumpet was not the sound John heard in Revelation 4:1-2, nor in Revelation 1:10.
     
  9. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

    895
    +175
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Again, your depiction of my view seems far removed from what I said or implied. I never said that Muslim nations are spiritual children of Abraham! You view of "spiritual inheritance" seems very different from mine. You will not find me interpreting "spiritual inheritance" to mean anything Muslim at all, nor did I even use that word!

    Again, "spiritual inheritance" for me means exactly what Paul indicated, and I quoted it. I believe the Bible's view of "spiritual inheritance." Christian nations are the "spiritual heirs" of Abraham, as I quoted in Gal 3.

    Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

    Where does this passage interpret this "spiritual inheritance" to be Muslim? Where did I interpret this passage to mean something Muslim? It amazes me that you're doubling down on opposing my quotation of Paul here in the Bible!

    I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything remotely like what you're claiming I said. I never even mentioned the word "Muslim!" I was arguing against the Jewish notion that Abraham's inheritance of the "nations" were literal, biological heirs. Many Muslims are literal biological heirs of Abraham, ie if they are Arabic. I'm *not* agreeing with this, but think that Christian nations are the spiritual heirs of Abraham's faith, the faith of Abraham's descendant, Jesus.
     
  10. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    +511
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I agree with you and Paul.

    I don't agree that is what Genesis 17 is declaring. We have God stating a physical blessing on many physical nations from Abraham's offspring. That is one thing.


    Paul is not talking about Genesis 17. Paul was quoting Genesis 12:1-3.

    "Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation (physical), and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed (spiritual)."

    God did both. The physical and the spiritual. Genesis 17 is about the physical.
     
  11. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

    895
    +175
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I just address things as they come up, regardless of what thread they are in. It's difficult to insert a different conversation into an on-going one. I'm as happy talking about Matt 24 as I am talking about Christian States. ;)
     
  12. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

    895
    +175
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Okay, at least now I understand what you were saying. You think Gen 12 speaks of the Church as the spiritual heir of Abraham, and Gen 17 is talking about the literal physical descendants of Abraham? Well, I understand your position now, but it doesn't seem likely to me that Gen 12 and Gen 17 were saying different things about Abraham's heirs.

    Initially, the focus seemed to be on Abraham's biological heirs in Gen 12, in which Israel came to be the literal, biological heir of Abraham. Then, in Gen 17, this inheritance is expanded to include other nations.

    It seems much more likely that Abraham is referring to Gen 17, where the expansion to *other nations* is indicated, as opposed to Gen 12, where Israel is indicated? In Gen 12, Abraham is said to be made into a *nation,* through which all peoples are blessed.

    Obviously, that refers to Israel being produced through Abraham, who then produces Christ. And it is through Christ that all peoples are blessed. When people "bless Abraham," they are putting their faith in Christ, the son of Abraham.

    But Gen 17 says much the same thing with a focus on "nations." And so, the peoples to be blessed through Abraham are literally said to be "nations," assumably through the same process of producing Israel, then Christ, and then blessing the world when they put their faith in him.

    Gen 12.2 “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

    Gen 17.3 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”


    Please note that in both Gen 12 and 17, the Israeli *nation* is in focus, ie Abraham's literal "descendants." And in both passages Abraham is said to become a blessing to the world, which is likely a reference to people putting their faith in Christ. In both passages, both Israel and the world are blessed by having faith in Christ, as I see it.

    Both Israel and the nations are blessed spiritually in Gen 12 and in Gen 17. The "blessing" of the nations comes by their multiplication, which comes by faith in Christ. This happens for both Israel and the nations, when they put their faith in the God of Abraham, who is Christ.

    Gen 17 is about both Israel and the nations, just as in Gen 12. Physical multiplication is a blessing only when it results from putting faith in the God of Abraham, ie in Christ. There is no such thing as a physical blessing apart from a spiritual blessing in the economy of God.
     
  13. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

    946
    +506
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The 7th trump ushers in the Lord's day/Day of the Lord. He heard a voice as if a trumpet. So he is hearing a voice that sounds like a trumpet. Christ is talking at that point and that should be no suprise since this is his Revelation.

    And the 7th trump and voices go hand in hand. There's a shout/voice of the archangel and the trump.

    I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

    This trump of God is the 7th, that's the last and it means spiritual completeness.


    And we know this ushers in the Lord's day/Day of the Lord because Paul calls this very even in a few verse down -the day of the Lord.


    I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

    Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
  14. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

    895
    +175
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Yes, I studied the book of Revelation quite a few years ago and noticed that nearly all of the symbolism seems to refer to the consummation. That is, even though the symbols are used for earlier, preliminary events, they tend to point forward to the end of the age, to the last day when Christ returns.

    So it would be natural for an angelic voice to speak to John like a trumpet, since the trumpet points forward to the last trumpet. It may, as well, refer to any kind of loud command. But in the Revelation, God's loud commands come with force to bring final judgment to the world, in anticipation of the inception of the Kingdom of God.
     
  15. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

    +1,509
    Australia
    Anglican
    Married
    Revelation 19 and 20 repeat the theme we saw in Revelation 6. The Lord's return. They're just from different angles. 19 looks at the earth's military powers that seemed so great to John's generation as Rome burned Christians to light the Emperor's gardens at night. 20 looks at the safety of the martyrs in heaven during this period of the Last Days (the gazillion years), and then at the end visualises the spiritual forces BEHIND the world's militaries uniting with the militaries we ALREADY saw judged in 19, to see how even this union of world's military might and the spiritual might behind the would do in a sick union against God. And the end is an anti-climax - they're just burned up and judged. It's like a pastor in a heartfelt sermon saying "Remember the end - Jesus will win!" at a number of different points in their talk.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2022
  16. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

    946
    +506
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks for your reply. I'll let you get back to your original topic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2022
  17. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    +511
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I assume you are not calling Jesus an angel, but the 7 Trumpets sounding is separate from the Second Coming as that is Jesus making the sound, not 7 different angels. Yes there is an archangel at the Second Coming. That does not mean the 7th literated angel in Revelation. In Revelation, John's 7th Angel Trumpet sound is the end of the final harvest, not the beginning. Jesus is on earth as Prince for the whole final harvest. Jesus is on earth even before the 7th Seal is opened.
     
  18. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

    946
    +506
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I'm not calling him an angel. I know he is the first voice talking. I'm was just stating since Christ returns ushers in the Lord's Day and with John being in the "spirit" on that day- naturally the 7th trump has sounded. You have other beliefs, that's fine. I believe the 7 seals are stamps of knowledge and that they are a summary of the tribulation, not the actions. I believe the trumps are for action. I'm not going to have a further converation on it because I am letting this go so the thread can get back to the original topic as was requested of me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2022
Loading...