A second look at Dr Peter Bolt's view of Jesus going TO the Ancient of Days

Yes, he does and I could accuse you of doing the very same thing.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
That's the entire key right there. Christ returns on the Lord's day which is just another way of saying the day of the Lord. Common sense alone tells us the 7th trump has just sounded. John is then told to write about the past, present and future of that day. That's it. That's the key to understanding the time table.

That's not even a true statement.

Christ has foretold us "all things" It's all there thank God!

You can have your thread back, no problem. I'm looking for serious bible discussions because I'm strictly a scripture person. All that mumbo jumbo you just posted has nothing to do with serious bible discussion, chapter by chapter and verse by verse. We only bring up Revelation because many of us believe it goes hand in hand with Matthew 24. We are given the events that lead up to Christ's return in Revelation. You chose to ignore important questions about that. Telling me that you don't really have an answer. And I was really curious how you saw those verses. Instead it's always "this is just a sermon", etc. That's not a serious answer.

You're also generalizing full groups of people with that big wall of text. People want to know certain truths and it's all laid out. We can't push people out of the bible. It's all of importance no matter what you believe. And if we can't have a conversation about certain verses pertaining to Christ's return I should move on.

 

I'm sorry, brother, this is so far removed from what I was saying that I can't even fathom what you are saying? I said that Jews may like to see the "nations" descending from Abraham as being literal children from different wives evolving into nations literally descended from Abraham.

But Paul indicates that Abraham's fatherhood is spiritual, and determined by our faith in Christ. It as a prediction, I think, that there would be many Christian nations. Maybe you can explain how your view is different from mine, as I just described it?

 

The verse is not about a spiritual application. Else we have spiritual Muslim nations. Spiritual Christian nations, and spiritual Judaism nations. You cannot just say Christianity is only spiritual. You have equated a religion not the spiritual family of God. God's family is without observation as a kingdom/government.

You are going to find it hard to convince any religious person their religion is not a spiritual belief system. The world actually calls all three religions Abrahamic. They see all three as extensions of Abraham's offspring. You may not see it that way, but many do.

 

This is your entire problem. This is man's tradition, not God or the bible. John never called Sunday the Lord's day. Not once. He called the first day of the week just that -the first day of the week. No one has ever called Sunday the Lord's day in the bible. The Lord's day is just another way of saying the day of the Lord. If we are to believe what you're saying John would have said "I was in the spirit on the first day of the week" And most importantly he was in the "spirit" he wasn't just sitting there on a Sunday afternoon.

When we start putting in men's traditions into the bible, we make void the true word of the God.

Some of those in the church will be thrown into prison by the "devil" That is future no matter how much symbolism you apply to it. We know this because it's by their very own testimony that they are to overcome him. And they loved not their lives to the death. No one needs a PHD for simple reading comphrension.

Much of it is about us. Has Christ returned? No, then much of it is about us, but go on and believe otherwise.

Christ says he comes quickly, has he returned? No. You have to realize God sees time differently than us. You keep calling John a pastor and Revelation a sermon. This is Christ's Revelation, not John's. And as I said, it's prophesy, not a sermon. John was told to write the things he saw in the time frame of the Lord's day. (future to us) You can keep thinking he was somehow on Sunday as if that has any revelance or makes sense. But he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day (day of the Lord) he just heard a trumpet and he sees Christ.

Chaotic for some but the 7th trump brings on the Lord's day/Day of the Lord/Day of Christ. Same day. So that's why I said common sense alone should tell us the 7th trump has just sounded. It doesn't make sense to you because you've been so influenced by men's traditions it's hard to see what's actually written there.

I've been there, I used to believe in a pretrib rapture, among other doctrines I've since dropped because as I said I'm strictly a scripture girl. If something can't be backed up in the Bible, I won't believe it.

That's why I earnestly wanted your views on the Beast and the FP and them getting thrown into the LOF immediately "after" Christ returns in chapter 19.And then in 20, we see very clearly there are still in the LOF. So Christ would have to have returned. Again that's common sense. That's why many of us don't believe that we are in a symbolic 1000 year period at this time. That's one of my biggest sticking points and it is for others as well. But you could not give me direct serious answer. Just another wall of text on how to read Revelation. That does not answer the question about the Beast and the FP and how they relate to Christ's return. If you're an expert on "how to read" Revelation, I would think you would have an answer. You obviously have read it, right? So you would have to have some sort of opinion or belief on those verses. But no, you didn't.

I'm starting to believe we're not even talking about the same book.

Revelation 10:11 "And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

This book is for everyone.

 

The 7th Trumpet was not the sound John heard in Revelation 4:1-2, nor in Revelation 1:10.

 

Again, your depiction of my view seems far removed from what I said or implied. I never said that Muslim nations are spiritual children of Abraham! You view of "spiritual inheritance" seems very different from mine. You will not find me interpreting "spiritual inheritance" to mean anything Muslim at all, nor did I even use that word!

Again, "spiritual inheritance" for me means exactly what Paul indicated, and I quoted it. I believe the Bible's view of "spiritual inheritance." Christian nations are the "spiritual heirs" of Abraham, as I quoted in Gal 3.

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Where does this passage interpret this "spiritual inheritance" to be Muslim? Where did I interpret this passage to mean something Muslim? It amazes me that you're doubling down on opposing my quotation of Paul here in the Bible!

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything remotely like what you're claiming I said. I never even mentioned the word "Muslim!" I was arguing against the Jewish notion that Abraham's inheritance of the "nations" were literal, biological heirs. Many Muslims are literal biological heirs of Abraham, ie if they are Arabic. I'm *not* agreeing with this, but think that Christian nations are the spiritual heirs of Abraham's faith, the faith of Abraham's descendant, Jesus.

 

I agree with you and Paul.

I don't agree that is what Genesis 17 is declaring. We have God stating a physical blessing on many physical nations from Abraham's offspring. That is one thing.


Paul is not talking about Genesis 17. Paul was quoting Genesis 12:1-3.

"Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation (physical), and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed (spiritual)."

God did both. The physical and the spiritual. Genesis 17 is about the physical.

 

I just address things as they come up, regardless of what thread they are in. It's difficult to insert a different conversation into an on-going one. I'm as happy talking about Matt 24 as I am talking about Christian States.

 

Okay, at least now I understand what you were saying. You think Gen 12 speaks of the Church as the spiritual heir of Abraham, and Gen 17 is talking about the literal physical descendants of Abraham? Well, I understand your position now, but it doesn't seem likely to me that Gen 12 and Gen 17 were saying different things about Abraham's heirs.

Initially, the focus seemed to be on Abraham's biological heirs in Gen 12, in which Israel came to be the literal, biological heir of Abraham. Then, in Gen 17, this inheritance is expanded to include other nations.

It seems much more likely that Abraham is referring to Gen 17, where the expansion to *other nations* is indicated, as opposed to Gen 12, where Israel is indicated? In Gen 12, Abraham is said to be made into a *nation,* through which all peoples are blessed.

Obviously, that refers to Israel being produced through Abraham, who then produces Christ. And it is through Christ that all peoples are blessed. When people "bless Abraham," they are putting their faith in Christ, the son of Abraham.

But Gen 17 says much the same thing with a focus on "nations." And so, the peoples to be blessed through Abraham are literally said to be "nations," assumably through the same process of producing Israel, then Christ, and then blessing the world when they put their faith in him.

Gen 12.2 “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.

Gen 17.3 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

Please note that in both Gen 12 and 17, the Israeli *nation* is in focus, ie Abraham's literal "descendants." And in both passages Abraham is said to become a blessing to the world, which is likely a reference to people putting their faith in Christ. In both passages, both Israel and the world are blessed by having faith in Christ, as I see it.

Both Israel and the nations are blessed spiritually in Gen 12 and in Gen 17. The "blessing" of the nations comes by their multiplication, which comes by faith in Christ. This happens for both Israel and the nations, when they put their faith in the God of Abraham, who is Christ.

Gen 17 is about both Israel and the nations, just as in Gen 12. Physical multiplication is a blessing only when it results from putting faith in the God of Abraham, ie in Christ. There is no such thing as a physical blessing apart from a spiritual blessing in the economy of God.

 

The 7th trump ushers in the Lord's day/Day of the Lord. He heard a voice as if a trumpet. So he is hearing a voice that sounds like a trumpet. Christ is talking at that point and that should be no suprise since this is his Revelation.

And the 7th trump and voices go hand in hand. There's a shout/voice of the archangel and the trump.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

This trump of God is the 7th, that's the last and it means spiritual completeness.


And we know this ushers in the Lord's day/Day of the Lord because Paul calls this very even in a few verse down -the day of the Lord.


I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

 

Yes, I studied the book of Revelation quite a few years ago and noticed that nearly all of the symbolism seems to refer to the consummation. That is, even though the symbols are used for earlier, preliminary events, they tend to point forward to the end of the age, to the last day when Christ returns.

So it would be natural for an angelic voice to speak to John like a trumpet, since the trumpet points forward to the last trumpet. It may, as well, refer to any kind of loud command. But in the Revelation, God's loud commands come with force to bring final judgment to the world, in anticipation of the inception of the Kingdom of God.

 

Thanks for your reply. I'll let you get back to your original topic.

 

I assume you are not calling Jesus an angel, but the 7 Trumpets sounding is separate from the Second Coming as that is Jesus making the sound, not 7 different angels. Yes there is an archangel at the Second Coming. That does not mean the 7th literated angel in Revelation. In Revelation, John's 7th Angel Trumpet sound is the end of the final harvest, not the beginning. Jesus is on earth as Prince for the whole final harvest. Jesus is on earth even before the 7th Seal is opened.

 

I'm not calling him an angel. I know he is the first voice talking. I'm was just stating since Christ returns ushers in the Lord's Day and with John being in the "spirit" on that day- naturally the 7th trump has sounded. You have other beliefs, that's fine. I believe the 7 seals are stamps of knowledge and that they are a summary of the tribulation, not the actions. I believe the trumps are for action. I'm not going to have a further converation on it because I am letting this go so the thread can get back to the original topic as was requested of me.