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A second look at Dr Peter Bolt's view of Jesus going TO the Ancient of Days

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by eclipsenow, Mar 21, 2022.

  1. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Hi all,
    in another thread some new questions around Matthew 24 forced me to reconsider some aspects of Peter Bolt's "Jesus going TO the Ancient of Days" hypothesis.

    Normally many of us read this chapter as being about the end of the temple and then suddenly jumping to the Return of Jesus, way before Jesus uses the famous phrase in verse 36 "But about THAT DAY or hour no one knows."

    Why do we make that jump? Because we don't know the context and meaning of the Old Testament verses being quoted, and so it sounds an awful lot like the end of the world! I used to read this passage as the end of the world - but got really confused when it said "34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." But the world DIDN'T end then. So what does it all mean?

    We need to put aside our preconceived ideas and systematically go through this apocalyptic symbolism and try and find what is being quoted from the Old Testament. Because I'm starting to side with Dr Bolt that if we look at the OT verses in context, this is all about God judging Jerusalem and the Old Covenant, and as the temple is destroyed they are to remember that Jesus is reigning from heaven! Indeed, it's because Jesus is reigning that such a thing could even happen!

    Also please remember Jesus has just wept over Jerusalem, declared he IS the temple - and knows he is about to be brutally murdered as the ultimate sacrifice. This sometimes abstract thing we call "the gospel" is about to get very real indeed!

    MATTHEW 24
    “Immediately after the distress of those days
    “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’


    The stars falling? End of the world - case closed! Except - this is exactly the language used to describe a kingdom being burned to the ground - not end of this whole universe stuff! Check it out. Remember Isaiah's prophecy against Babylon? It's not the end of the world - just the end of Babylon. God stirs up the Medes and Persians to strike down Babylon. But, typical of Hebrew hyperbolic symbolism - listen to this language!

    Isaiah 13:
    "See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light."

    It's the Day of the Lord against Babylon in particular. But it's not the end of the world. Again, this judgement against Jerusalem is so severe it brings to mind Isaiah 34: which is a universal judgment against all God's enemies - Edom. More picture language.

    Joel 2 describes a vast army of the Lord bringing justice - and uses similar language.

    Before them the earth shakes,
    the heavens tremble,
    the sun and moon are darkened,
    and the stars no longer shine.

    Isaiah 34
    "All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree."

    So the stars falling and heavens rolled up are symbolic of cosmic judgement. But whose judgement? We learn in the NT that - and could easily be describing the Almighty Judging the Son! All the world's sin, poured out on his head. Horrible, but amazing for us!

    Then what do we make of the next bit of Matt 24?

    30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

    People are geographically challenged with the direction the Son of Man is travelling. He's not travelling TO the Earth here, but back TO the father!

    Check Daniel 7.

    13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


    People always think this is the Lord coming back to earth. What if this is the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man, going back into heaven and being welcomed by the Ancient of Days, God the Father, after dying for us all? Isn't that just the appropriate image for God the Son returning as the "Son of Man" who was killed and now lives? Then he IS given an eternal dominion - the church - and we are reigning in heaven with him now - even as our bodies remain here on earth.

    Back to Matthew 24

    31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    The word in the Greek is angelos, and can be translated as Angels, but can also mean messengers. What if we've been reading THIS bit wrong as well, and it's actually the apostles gathering in the elect with the message, the gospel? Jesus is a week away from dying. He is about to go through horrible things and the disciples scatter. There have already been false Messiahs on the scene. So immediately after the distress of 'those days' is not really clear in timing.

    Check these uses of "angelos" which is not angels but messengers or even spies!

    James 2:25 "In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the SPIES and sent them off in a different direction?" (NIV, ESV says "messengers".)

    Luke 9:52 "And he sent MESSENGERS ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make preparations for him."

    It's the same word, angelos. It's about context.

    Daniel 7 is about the Son of Man going back to the father and winning a kingdom.

    Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world - it's the church instead which is not meant to be a political body.

    Daniel 7 + gospel events of Jesus dying then going back to the Ancient of Days = end of Old Covenant, End of Temple, and messengers taking out the gospel. And if I haven't explained it well enough, here are my Reformed Sydney Anglican Ministers doing a better job.

    The first half of Matthew 24 - the readings start at 22:00 minutes in and then the talk.


    The second half of Matthew 24 - readings start at 21 minutes in.

    (Also, please do not text that mobile number questions as it is only for during the service.)

    As I said, The Boltian view is controversial. This PDF has some interesting comparisons between him and DA Carson and other theologians on this passage.
    https://thematthewphile.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/matthew-24-25-nt4-2008-lecture-notes.pdf
     
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    While it is true that erchomai can mean either "to come" or "go", Thayer lists its occurrence in Matthew 24:30 under "to come". "To come" is the translation in the vast majority of other instances.

    But I don't see that creating any particular interpretive problem.
     
  3. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Yes, it doesn't change the reading of the text because the Son of Man is coming into the presence of the Ancient of Days. So what does that mean? We go back to Daniel 7 and it's his victory procession, almost like a prince being crowned.
     
  4. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi all passages concerning the 2nd coming and onset of the kingdom must be laid out side by side and carefully looked at as the kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end can only have one beginning point. Two of the key passages that describe this you have ommitted. Dan 2 and Zech 14.
    In Dan 2 the stone cut without hands that crushes the image of mans kingdoms and grinds them to powder is seen descending to strike the image and then the kingdom covers the earth and has no end. In Zech 14 the LORD comes to fight when Jerusalem is being overrun; here the LORD comes with His saints and His feet touch the Mt of Olives which will split creating a new valley and river that flows year round. Now it says the LORD is king over all the earth. It is also followed up that the nations which are left must come to Jerusalem once a year to worship the king. In Rev we see the saints in heaven sing that they will rule with Him on the earth. In Rev it says in chapter 12 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. in chapter 15
    They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:
    “Great and marvelous are Your works,
    Lord God Almighty!
    Just and true are Your ways,
    O King of the saints![fn]
    4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
    For You alone are holy.
    For all nations shall come and worship before You,
    For Your judgments have been manifested.”

    Now the passages you quote would also fit with these that the LORD Jesus is coming to the earth. So your view the other way around is the one that is in conflict with these other passages talking about the same event. Psalm 110 says
    1 The LORD said to my Lord,
    “Sit at My right hand,
    Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
    2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
    Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
    There are many prophecies about the before and after picture but we have a word in Hebrews that is a solid expectation..
    But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
    “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
    In my study I have taken Luke chapter one as a key passage where the LORD Jesus is promised the throne of David and Zacharias says that Jesus will keep all the promises, oaths covenants and prophecies to deliver the house of Jacob from their enemies and from that time on they shall worship and serve the LORD in righteousness and now in holiness all the days of their lives. This transition is when in tech 14 in that day the LORD comes to be king they will say the LORD is one. this is huge as it is Jesus having come and in that statement Israel is confessing Jesus is God and one with the Father. Amazing resolution the plot of the book of all history.
     
  5. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    But you've just got to read Romans and Galatians and Hebrews a few times each to realise many of these promises have been fulfilled spiritually. Also remember that the promise of the river coming out of Zion is fulfilled in Jesus when he died and rose again. Remember his conversation with the woman at the well? HE is the living water!

    In the same way, when we read the gospels and New Testament with OT promises in mind, we see that in the gospel HE is the temple, HE is the true bread, HE is the blood and wine, HE is the way, truth and life, HE is the sacrifice, HE is the Lord of the Sabbath, HE is the true Israel - serving the Father faultlessly as our representative, HE is even the security of 'rest in the land' (make every effort to enter that rest, my yoke is easy, come unto me all who seek REST = security), HE brings the kingdom, and HE reigns over this kingdom from heaven through the church until THAT DAY when HE returns.

    There's just no need to wonder about a new temple, modern day Israel, 1948, end-times-tables and all that jazz. Jesus brought the kingdom and mediates for and reigns over that kingdom until he will suddenly and surprisingly return. We should live in that light and preach the gospel and love our neighbours until THAT DAY.
     
  6. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    The first thing to note is that the coming meant in verse 30 is meaning post the tribulation of those days meant in verse 29. That is crystal clear. It is undeniable.

    The 2nd thing to note is that the coming in verse 30, Jesus is already in possession of power and great glory before He even arrives.

    Let's now look at Daniel 7.

    Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


    In order for you to be correct that Matthew 24:30 is meaning Daniel 7:13-14, you first have to show and prove that the tribulation of those days meant in Matthew 24:29 preceded the coming in Daniel 7:13 since the trib of those days in Matthew 24:29 precede the coming meant in Matthew 24:30.

    This is what happens when one lets others do some of their thinking for them, IOW allows others to brainwash them. These doing their thinking for them get the ones they are doing the thinking for so confused that they have them believing a coming involving Jesus' ascension soon after His death and resurrection is meaning the same coming that can't even happen until after the trib of those days meant in Matthew 24:30. Even if the coming meant in Matthew 24:30 happened around 70 AD, it wouldn't have been a bodily coming though, and it would obviously have been after the coming meant in Daniel 7:13, which BTW, was a bodily coming, a bodily coming to heaven.

    This is yet more reasons why I refuse to even consider anything you say. You can't seem to think for yourself in regards to the coming meant in Daniel 7:13 vs the coming meant in Matthew 24:30, because if you could you wouldn't be promoting nonsense that both comings involve the same coming. That doesn't even remotely make sense. Once again, the coming in Matthew 24:30 is meaning after the trib of those days meant in Matthew 24:29. One is to seriously believe that the trib of those days meant in Matthew 24:29 preceded the coming meant in Daniel 7:13?
     
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  7. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    It did.
    I fail to see what you're saying?

    Um, no, I've thought deeply about the claims from a number of perspectives.
    I drift between them now and then.
    I linked to the PDF at the end where some top theologians disagree with Peter Bolt on a point or two on reading this passage.

    Be nice if you could stop using that sort of language and try harder to comply with forum rules.

    That tribulation DID happen!
    That's what AD70 is all about!

    I don't think you understand the position being put forward, and you appeared to just want to repeat "You've been brainwashed" a few times.

    Technically, I don't think it did.
    I think it happened the moment Jesus ascended to heaven.
    And continues to happen till this day.
    It's imagery of the Son of Man reigning over the world through his people, the church, and gathering in everyone into the kingdom he loves and will one day return to bring into actuality.
    But I think what Jesus is saying is "The moment you see the temple burn, remember the son of man is still reigning not despite the temple being burned, but BECAUSE the temple is burned! The gospel is going forth, and I am reigning!" That's what Jesus is saying - by quoting Daniel.
    The Son of Man goes before the Father - not from the Father to the earth.
    That's what Daniel says.

    Remember - they didn't have chapters and numbers the way we do. When Jesus quotes a few lines from here and a few from there, he is asking the audience to bring to mind more of the main ideas of the passages he is quoting. That whole coming on the clouds before the Ancient of Days passage is a celebration of the victory won. Read the whole bit, and dwell on that for a bit.


    Nope! That's a symbol of the heavenly throne room, which Jesus actually reigns from now, through the church.

    But you are considering them.
    You're trying to disagree with them!
    Good on you for wrestling with them.
    Don't sell yourself short by pretending you can't even think about them.

    Ah, there you go again.
    3 strikes and you're out... I actually didn't read the rest of that paragraph because you did that.
    Do better.
    I look forward to a more meaningful exchange.
     
  8. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi there are some real truths about being part of the kingdom of God being born again to inherit it and that nation of believers will indeed become spiritual Israel. The ideas I hold have the spiritual kingdom being a real thing and the promises to Israel laid out in Luke one that Jesus is to fulfill are many and the passage does not list them for us they are all going to be found in Old Testament verses that Jesus will keep the oaths, promises, covenants and prophecies and the end result is a believing nation of Israel who will have been miraculously delivered from their enemies resulting in a permanent change in them, receiving the new heart, which is the same heart promised in Jer 31 in the new covenant. Now Jesus certainly established the new covenant and yet the promise of Israel receiving the new heart coincides with Israel returning to the mountains of Israel which had long been desolate. This is also noted to occur when David is raised up which is also a day when the LORD removes the reproach of Israel from all the nations.
    Now the idea of David being raised up occurs in 5 passaged in 3 books. Hosea notes in chapter 3 that it is in the latter days, after Israel has gone many days without a king or sacrifice which implies the return of the sacrifice after many days as a key element to the return of David. In Jer 30 we know the David is raised up in the latter days after the time of Jacobs trouble and he (Jacob) will be saved out of it. This is connected to chapter 31 which is talking about those days as well and leads to the promise of the new covenant. Now God organized the promise of the new covenant to be immediately followed by 3 ideas that show perfect timing and understanding as the New Covenant was already understood by the LORD to be rejected as Dan already noted in his 70 weeks that the city Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed again. So in Jer 31 it says that Israel will never cease to be a nation in God's eyes nor will He cast them off for all they have done. This is followed by a glimpse into the transfer a the end of the tribulation and onset of the millennium. The city Jerusalem will be rebuilt at a time when the valleys are full of dead bodies and from that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. So when Jesus wept for Jerusalem and predicted the temple destroyed specifically for rejecting the new covenant God already assures us that Israel is still nations and not cast off for what they did and one day they will rebuild and from then on it will be holy and never thrown down again.
    This is what is witnessed in many places and the very deliverance from the enemies is exactly what we see in Dan 7, Zech 14 and Rev. Zech regarding the 1st coming of the LORD was literal about coming in on a foal of a donkey and then being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and that money given to the potter. Now in Chapter 14 there are so many specifics that are real details and do not pass the smell test for taking them allegorically. That water that flows from the new river is seen healing the Dead Sea and not the salt flats this promise is directly related and has no place in a metaphor. The new valley has specific boundaries and the defeat of the enemies is graphic and also notes that half the city is taken captive and the way they die is graphic. This entire chapter shows the kingdom comes when Israel is saved and those who hold the 70 AD view have the kingdom coming when Israel is destroyed. The fact that many have held the idea of prophecy as allegorical and apocryphal language is being led into a wind of doctrine.
    The fact is Israel is back and they have plans and prepared everything for the 3rd temple. This is like Noah building the ark before the flood. It shows which view is correct as word morality and politics are telling us that a great travail and judgment is coming and it all lines up with the literal interpretation of Daniel and Rev and all the rest.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How does God identify Israel?

    1. DNA
    2. Religion
    3. Culture
    4. Domicile
    5. Something else
     
  10. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi the covenant is with the descendants of Abraham to the 12 tribes is linked to the land of Canaan. The context of the passages declare who this is and that is why it is distinct. The context of the spiritual kingdom and the Spiritual Israel are also distinct and the context of those passages keeps these two concepts separate.

    In Luke one the prophecy is to the house of Jacob that Jesus would deliver them from their enemies and cause them to become holy and righteous that from that time on they would worship and serve the LORD without fear from that time onwards. This is exactly what happens when the LORD returns in Dan 7, Zech 14 and in Rev. These promises covenants oaths and prophecies mentioned in Luke one are many and many are tied with the land of the covenant and show that in latter days what is to happen.
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The covenant was with the faithful obedient covenant-keepers within the nation of Israel.

    Israel from the time of its birth was comprised of both descendants and non-descendants of Abraham. (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22; et al).

    God slew unfaithful disobedient covenant-breakers by the thousands, including descendants of Abraham.

    The attempted racialization of God and His Word is errant and unScriptural.

    Faith and obedience are and have always been God's only covenant criteria.

    Spiritual DNA.

    Two genes.

    Faith and obedience.

    And nothing else.
     
  12. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    That's us - the church. As 1 Peter 2 says:
    "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

    I also found this article helpful.


    ======================


    I had never heard of replacement theology the first time I was accused of believing in it. A lady that had attended our church for some time and who often forwarded me articles praising all things Jewish and Israel accused me of holding to this apparently abhorrent doctrine. I had to look it up on the Internet, where all such truths reside, before responding. One of the sites I visited defines replacement theology this way:

    Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.[1]

    I’m not sure that I’ve ever met anyone who actually believes that “the church replaces Israel” and I’m sure I’ve never met anyone who believes that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.”

    What an odd way of putting things.

    The Bible seems to teach quite clearly that Jesus IS Israel and in some sense fulfills all of the hopes and expectations for the nation. He does what they never could. He obeys God perfectly and keeps the law entirely and thereby unlocks all of the promises and blessings that God had said he would give. He then shares those blessings with all people – Jew or Gentile – who put their faith and trust in him.

    That is the precise argument that Paul is making in Galatians 3. He says:

    "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. (Galatians 3:16 ESV)"

    Jesus Christ is the ultimate focus and referent for the promises of God to Israel! The promises do not land finally on a nation but on a person! The glory and climax of God’s redemptive purpose is not “Israel in the land” but “Christ on the cross”! That’s Christianity 101 the last time I checked. Jesus is the hero and focus of the Bible – not the Jewish people as a whole and all of the blessings won by Jesus are shared equally with all believing people regardless of their ethnicity, gender or class. Isn’t that what Paul goes on to say in the same chapter?

    "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:26–29 ESV)"

    I have believed that from my earliest days as a Christian, as indeed has almost every other believer I’ve ever met.

    As for the idea that “God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel”; its hard to think of anything more ridiculous than that. What nation on earth exists outside the notice and care of Almighty God? The Bible says that God has plans for Edom for crying out loud, how much more should we believe that he has plans for Israel?

    I don’t know of any Christians who believe that God has no specific future plans for the nation of Israel, but I do know that good Christians disagree on what those plans are likely to be. The key text in that discussion is Romans 11:26 where Paul says: “And in this way all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26 ESV).

    What does he mean by that? He has already said that ‘not all are Israel who are of Israel’ (9:6) so what exactly does he mean and what exactly does God have planned? There are two main answers commonly given to that question.

    (1) He means that the full elect of God, Jew and Gentile, will all be gathered into Christ according to God’s perfect will.

    That was the position of John Calvin and has had a great deal of support throughout Christian history. According to this view, God has very specific plans to save a great many people from every tribe, tongue and nation, including the nation of Israel. ‘All Israel’ thus refers to all the elect and redeemed Jews and all the elect and redeemed Gentiles collectively. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews but are gathered into Christ alongside.

    (2) He means that shortly before the return of Jesus the Jewish people en mass will turn to faith in Christ

    This option was dominant among my spiritual ancestors and represents the view that I favour to this day. William Carey and Andrew Fuller for example, two of the founders of The Baptist Missionary Society, both looked forward to a general conversion of the Jewish people prior to the return of Christ. Fuller wrote on this topic at some length in his Expository Remarks Relative To The Conversion Of The Jews. Iain Murray has written convincingly that this was the dominant view of the Puritans, citing for example the venerable Richard Sibbes:

    Let no man therefore despair; nor, as I said before, let us despair of the conversion of that are savages in other parts. How bad soever they be, they are of the world, and if the gospel be preached to them, Christ will be ‘believed on in the world’. Christ’s almighty power goeth with his own ordinances to make it effectual… And when the fulness of the gentiles is come in, then comes the conversion of the Jews.[2]

    Therefore, however they may differ over the specifics, the vast majority of Bible believing Christians over the ages have in fact believed that God has specific plans for the Jewish people. With them I believe that God plans to bless the people of Israel in and through the person and work of Jesus Christ. I believe that at some point – hopefully very soon – he will pour out on Israel a spirit of grace and supplication and they will look upon the one whom they have pierced and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son.

    I wonder sometimes why this has not already happened. The Apostle Paul found it strange and mysterious even in his own day. He said:

    Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

    “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?”

    For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:33–36 ESV)

    God’s ways are higher than our ways. He knows what he is doing and he has told us what we should be doing. Instead of fighting with each other over the minute details of our eschatology we should be praying for the conversion of every man, woman and child on planet earth; be they rich or poor, slave or free, Jew or Gentile.

    Even still, come Lord Jesus.
    SDG
    Paul Carter
    Does Anyone Actually Believe in Replacement Theology? - The Gospel Coalition | Canada
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    The post I was addressing at the time was the OP. I don't see anywhere in the OP that you proved that the trib of those days meant in Matthew 24:29 preceded the coming meant in Daniel 7:13. Daniel 7:13 is meaning soon after His death and resurrection, it is meaning His ascension. We at least seem to be in agreement about that. But there was no trib of days, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, during the time of Christ's first advent, meaning from the time He was born until the time He ascended back to the Father.

    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


    What is recorded here, none of this involves a period of time between His birth and ascension, nor does it involve a period of time before He was born. These verses are prophetic, so this means they would be meaning a time future to that of when Jesus spoke those words. That means whatever period of time these verses are referring to, from Jesus' perspective at the time, these would have been future events. That places the fulfillment of these verses post that of Jesus speaking these words, which then also places Matthew 24:30 and that coming post that of when He spoke these words, since that coming is undeniably meaning sometime after the fulfillment of the verses above.

    To summarize. Daniel 7:13-14 involves a bodily coming, but not to earth, but to heaven. Matthew 24:30 OTOH, the coming cannot be a coming to heaven but has to be a coming to earth since it involves a period of time after He has already ascended back into heaven. He doesn't need to come to heaven in Matthew 24:30 if He is already in heaven as of Daniel 7:13-14. What is debatable, though it shouldn't be, is the coming in Matthew 24:30 involving a coming in 70 AD, or is it involving a coming in the end of this age? Clearly, at least to most of us, the coming in Daniel 7:13-14 is not the same coming meant in Matthew 24:30. How anyone could think they are the same coming defies logic.
     
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  14. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi the promises, covenants, oaths and prophecies are many and in LUKE one we see that the house of Jacob is the focus of these with a declared end of struggle and a newfound righteousness and obedience as from that time of deliverance there is a permanent change.

    If we were to list as many specific promises, covenants, oaths and prophecies as we can and examine them we can see from the passages the clear sum of the intent.

    These promises in Ezekiel are to those gathered back from all the nations where God had scattered them. They are said to have profaned the name of the LORD in all the nations where they were scattered and the LORD says He brings them back for His own names sake. These people are promised to have the reproach the nations removed from them and the heart of stone taken away and given a new heart. This is God's faithfulness that is on trial and the author knows the plot of the book. The 1st plot line is enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman and the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent and this is resolved at the end of the tribulation and even the new heaven and earth tie it all together with the New Jerusalem coming down. The other plot lines are the nation of Israel is promised the land of Canaan. The seed of Abraham all the nations will be blessed and that is Jesus. The end of Dan 7 is the same as Zech 14 and Rev when Christ comes with power and authority and will rule forever with a 1000 reign from Jerusalem.

    The child promised and son given will have the government on His shoulders and will establish it with justice and judgment from that time forever. We have not seen justice and judgment established and God ruling with a rod of Iron. Daniel. 7 notes this pompous one is persecuting and overcoming the saints when the decision is made in favor of the saints. It notes the pompous one is given to the flame but the rest of the beasts loose their dominion for a season and a time. Now in Rev the beast is given to the flame but Satan is bound for 1000 years to be released for one last temptation. You see they never gain back their dominion and the kingdom does not end at the end of the millennium it just moves and then the great white throne. The pompous one like the beast is persecuting for 42 months before the kingdom comes.

    When Zech 14 describes it the whole passage in linked like a reporter recording it from the past with all details depending on the other on what happen that single day as it is a day that the morning and evening are specific. The river created is still flowing in EZE 47 ,48 and heals the Dead Sea at the time the tribes gains their inheritance with specific boundaries in the promised land. This is all future and synchronize.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The house of Jacob was OT Israel.

    Isaiah 48:1
    Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

    We've seen the multiracial characteristics of Israel from its beginning, and we know that God dealt with Israel not according to physical DNA, but according to spiritual DNA -- faith and obedience -- alone.

    As He deals with every member of the human race.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2022
  16. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the notion that the language Jesus used was common poetry associated with the demise of a Kingdom. But in context, the language is also apocalyptic, meaning that the end of the Kingdom of the world is in view--not the annihilation of the planet, but rather, the turning around of the systems of the world to serve Christ's cause.

    As for the Son of Man approaching the Ancient of Days in Dan 7, I think that clearly refers to Christ's coming to earth. "He is coming in the same way he left." All of the NT references to Christ's Return seem to refer back to this image in Dan 7, that of the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven.

    It's just that he begins by approaching God in heaven first, perhaps to seek authority to establish God's Kingdom on earth and render a decision against the Antichrist. And then, he comes in full, divine regalia, to turn the kingdoms of the world over to the Kingdom of God and of His Christ.
     
  17. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    We're talking about the abomination - which is Rome (large iron teeth), the biggest empire the world had ever seen.

    Minister Tom Barrett explains further here - I've keyframed to the abomination section. It's a really good talk - and encouraging to us - especially considering the last few years. Which is the whole point of Amillennialism....

     
  18. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What you're saying is not indicated in Daniel 7:13-14 whatsoever. I believe it should be clear that Daniel 7:13-14 is referring to Christ's ascension to heaven after His resurrection. Just compare the following two passages and you should see the similarities:

    Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

    Daniel 7:13 is clearly referring to Christ approaching the Father in heaven. Where else? That should be obvious to everyone. Then it says "He was given authority, glory and sovereign power". Are you somehow not aware that He was given "authority, glory and sovereign power" after His resurrection and ascension to heaven? Just read Ephesians 1:18-23 above. It very clearly indicates that right after His resurrection and ascension He was seated "at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked" and "God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church". Paul indicated that Christ was given that power and authority already "in the present age". This clearly already happened long ago. I don't understand how you can think Daniel 7:13-14 is referring to Him coming to the earth when it doesn't even hint at such a thing.
     
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  19. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Indeed!

    I often wonder if the very reason we have that disturbing Lamb vision of Jesus with 7 horns and 7 eyes is to emphasise how the gospel is the 'unsealing' of Daniel's scroll which was sealed in Daniel 12.

    The image of the lamb itself is clear: even though Jesus was slain, he still has perfect knowledge (7 eyes) and perfect power (7 horns).Then, just in case we missed the symbolism, John spells it out.

    And they sang a new song, saying:

    “You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals
    ,
    because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
    10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth.”

    The very book futurists try to insist that there will be a future 'Millennial' reign on earth tells us Jesus is reigning RIGHT NOW because he was slain!


    Lamb.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2022
  20. RandyPNW

    RandyPNW Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this isn't just a difference between you and me, but between many Christians of different varieties. So my argument is not just some stupid argument I hold to as an individual, but actually, a very time-honored argument.

    Obviously, Christ inherited the Kingdom of God when he ascended into heaven. But it is equally clear to Christians like me that he did not immediately initiate God's Kingdom upon the earth. It remains "near," and not "here," as Jesus indicated in his Gospel message. He said his Kingdom is "near." That is the message of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

    So naturally, the language would be similar between the ascension to obtain the Kingdom of God and the language concerning his return to establish God's Kingdom on earth. And I believe the language of Dan 7 has everything to do with establishing God's Kingdom on the earth, and not just with Messiah obtaining that authority.

    Since Christ did obtain his authority over God's Kingdom at his ascension, as you indicated, and the context in Dan 7 has to do with Jesus' Return, it seems clear to me that the approach of the Son of Man to some kind of heavenly meeting did not have to do with the ascension of Jesus. Rather, it had to do with some kind of conference call to determine the fall of Antichrist, the "Little Horn." It was a matter of reestablishing Jesus' authority to establish God's Kingdom on earth in the context of Antichrist's resistance to God.

    Paul's reference to Jesus' authority obviously has to do with the time of the resurrection, and thus with Jesus' ascension into heaven to obtain God's Kingdom. But as I indicated, this has nothing to do with the time he will establish the Kingdom of God on earth at his Return. And the fact Dan 7 here refers to Jesus' Return seems very clear to me since the language of the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven are the very words the NT uses to describe Jesus' Return.

    Therefore, Dan 7 is not about the Ascension, when Jesus initially received the Kingdom at his resurrection, but rather, about his Return to establish God's Kingdom on the earth. The words are obviously similar, but the timing and contexts are very different, in my opinion.
     
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