A response to a blog article.

[PrettyboyAndy]

I found this blog post by @OzSpen.

I find it amusing that he wrote about me in his blog:
https://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2016/04/11/whats-wrong-with-these-jesus-culture-songs/

I feel he's been he's been ignoring questions I've been asking.

So I will make two posts here, that were never answered even though I asked multiple times, and I look forward to hopefully hearing from Oz.


My Best,
Andy

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I found this blog post by @OzSpen.

I find it amusing that he wrote about me in his blog:
https://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2016/04/11/whats-wrong-with-these-jesus-culture-songs/

I feel he's been he's been ignoring questions I've been asking.

So I will make two posts here, that were never answered even though I asked multiple times, and I look forward to hopefully hearing from Oz.


My Best,
Andy

Regarding Song Lyrics
a) Do you believe these songs are egocentric?
b) Are these songs contrary to the Gospel? How/Why?


I am posting the two songs below,that you said are not biblical and egocentric for us to discuss: (Emphasis mine)

I am Yours
Here I am before You, falling in love and seeking Your truth
Knowing that Your perfect grace has brought me to this place
Because of You I freely live, my life to You, oh God, I give
So I stand before You, God
I lift my voice cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours

All the good You've done for me, I lift up my hands for all to see
You're the only one who brings me to my knees
To share this love across the earth, the beauty of Your holy worth
So I kneel before You, God
I lift my hands cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

Here I am, I stand, with arms wide open
To the One, the Son, the Everlasting God, the Everlasting God

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

and

Alive in You
From beginning to the end
All my life is in Your hands
This whole world may hold me down
But it can never drown You out
I'm not merely flesh and bone
I was made for something more

You are God, You're the Great "I Am"
Breath of life I breathe You in
Even in the fire, I'm alive in You!
You are strong in my brokenness
Sovereign over every step
Even in the fire, I'm alive
I'm alive in You!

Through the dark I hear Your voice
Rising up I will rejoice
For I was lost but now I'm found
'Cause even death can't hold You down

You are God, You're the Great "I Am"
Breath of life I breathe You in
Even in the fire, I'm alive in You!
You are strong in my brokenness
Sovereign over every step
Even in the fire, I'm alive
I'm alive in You!

It's no longer I who live, but Christ
Who lives within me, Christ who lives within me
From beginning to the end You deserve the glory
You deserve the glory
It's no longer I who live, but Christ
Who lives within me, Christ who lives within me
From beginning to the end You deserve the glory
You deserve the glory

You are God, You're the Great "I Am"
Breath of life I breathe You in
Even in the fire, I'm alive in You!
You are strong in my brokenness
Sovereign over every step
Even in the fire, I'm alive
I'm alive in You!
You are God, You're the Great "I Am"
Breath of life I breathe You in
Even in the fire, I'm alive in You!
You are strong in my brokenness
Sovereign over every step
Even in the fire, I'm alive
I'm alive in You!



In reference/response to:
Post # 115 and 120 of the - Are your churches using Jesus Culture songs in praise and worship? Thread

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Oz, if a song, or the song in particular "I am yours" is theocentric, does that make it contrary to the Gospel? Do you believe this song is Theocentric? How and why?

I am posting the song below for us to discuss: (Emphasis mine)

I am Yours
Here I am before You, falling in love and seeking Your truth
Knowing that Your perfect grace has brought me to this place
Because of You I freely live, my life to You, oh God, I give
So I stand before You, God
I lift my voice cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours

All the good You've done for me, I lift up my hands for all to see
You're the only one who brings me to my knees
To share this love across the earth, the beauty of Your holy worth
So I kneel before You, God
I lift my hands cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

Here I am, I stand, with arms wide open
To the One, the Son, the Everlasting God, the Everlasting God

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

Regarding "You God are strong in my brokenness"

a) How and Why is, "You God are strong in my brokenness" is contrary to Scripture?

Be mindful, I would be bringing up the following points:


a) If I said God is strong in my weakness, that does not limit God to being strong only in my weakness.
b) When I am in desperate need I fast and pray more so then I do when things are going great. At those points in my life I feel that am so much more closer with God and he reveals Himself more to me, or I have a more intimate relationship or understanding of Him. If I said I was in need and God was so good to me, he rescued me and he was strong in my weakness, There is nothing wrong with that and that's a true statement.
c) Stop trying to take less then 1 line from a song, and form an entire theological doctrine from it. What I mean by that is you ignore the entire point and message of the song, you take one line and come to the conclusion that the entire song is unbiblical because it says, You God are strong in my weakness.
d) But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:9-11 - That seems very scriptural to me.
e) Stop using scripture to attack people, that how satan temped Jesus.

In reference/response to your:
Post # 133, 148 and 151 of the: Are your churches using Jesus Culture songs in praise and worship? Thread

 

[OzSpen]

I found this blog post by @OzSpen.

I find it amusing that he wrote about me in his blog:
https://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2016/04/11/whats-wrong-with-these-jesus-culture-songs/

I feel he's been he's been ignoring questions I've been asking.

So I will make two posts here, that were never answered even though I asked multiple times, and I look forward to hopefully hearing from Oz.


My Best,
Andy

I've tried to have a rational conversation with you about the lyrics of two Jesus Culture songs but you would not address what I wrote so I moved on. When you commit logical fallacies we cannot have a reasonable discussion as fallacious reasoning impedes discussion of the issues.

Oz

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I've tried to have a rational conversation with you about the lyrics of two Jesus Culture songs but you would not address what I wrote so I moved on. When you commit logical fallacies we cannot have a reasonable discussion as fallacious reasoning impedes discussion of the issues.

Oz

Dear Oz, I apologize for committing the aforementioned logical fallacies, I am sorry.

Please just answer my two questions I posted above

 

[John Robie]

I went and looked up Mr. Gear's responses in the other thread. I see that he addressed the concerns, but I disagree with his conclusion. I do agree with his general premise, though, that God should be central to the songs we sing. But isolating words like "I" and "me" and stating that this makes the songs egocentric is a bit off the mark.

There are I and me statements all through the psalms. And one of the verses Mr. Gear took issue with was "It's no longer I who live, but Christ
Who lives within me". This is found in scripture, written by Paul. And the there is echoed through the song. Also reflected is Paul's assertion that God's power is made perfect in our weakness. Mr. Gear seems to have issue with that, and appears to have said that it's unbiblical. "It is false teaching to say that God the Lord is strong 'in my brokenness'", is what was said.

So while I commend Mr. Gear's desire to ensure that songs of worship or God-centered, I think his criticism of that song missed the mark.

Here's the link to his post so that it can be read in context so that I cannot be accused of being misleading.

 

[twin1954]

I've tried to have a rational conversation with you about the lyrics of two Jesus Culture songs but you would not address what I wrote so I moved on. When you commit logical fallacies we cannot have a reasonable discussion as fallacious reasoning impedes discussion of the issues.

Oz

Funny how it seems that anyone who disagrees with you are using fallacious reasoning. So in order to be logical and have a discussion with you we must agree with you?

 

[John Robie]

I was going over the Psalm we will be studying this morning at our worship service.

1 Incline your ear, O LORD, and answer me, for I am poor and needy.
2 Preserve my life, for I am godly; save your servant, who trusts in you-you are my God.
3 Be gracious to me, O Lord, for to you do I cry all the day.
4 Gladden the soul of your servant, for to you, O Lord, do I lift up my soul.
5 For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.
6 Give ear, O LORD, to my prayer; listen to my plea for grace.
7 In the day of my trouble I call upon you, for you answer me.
8 There is none like you among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like yours.
9 All the nations you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name.
10 For you are great and do wondrous things; you alone are God.
11 Teach me your way, O LORD, that I may walk in your truth; unite my heart to fear your name.
12 I give thanks to you, O Lord my God, with my whole heart, and I will glorify your name forever.
13 For great is your steadfast love toward me; you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
14 O God, insolent men have risen up against me; a band of ruthless men seeks my life, and they do not set you before them.
15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.
16 Turn to me and be gracious to me; give your strength to your servant, and save the son of your maidservant.
17 Show me a sign of your favor, that those who hate me may see and be put to shame because you, LORD, have helped me and comforted me. - Psalms 86

If Mr. Gear's standards are what we go by, it would seem to me that this psalm is very ego-centric. Me, me, me.

 

[OzSpen]

I was going over the Psalm we will be studying this morning at our worship service.

1 Incline your ear, O LORD, and answer me, for I am poor and needy.
2 Preserve my life, for I am godly; save your servant, who trusts in you-you are my God.
3 Be gracious to me, O Lord, for to you do I cry all the day.
4 Gladden the soul of your servant, for to you, O Lord, do I lift up my soul.
5 For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.
6 Give ear, O LORD, to my prayer; listen to my plea for grace.
7 In the day of my trouble I call upon you, for you answer me.
8 There is none like you among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like yours.
9 All the nations you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name.
10 For you are great and do wondrous things; you alone are God.
11 Teach me your way, O LORD, that I may walk in your truth; unite my heart to fear your name.
12 I give thanks to you, O Lord my God, with my whole heart, and I will glorify your name forever.
13 For great is your steadfast love toward me; you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
14 O God, insolent men have risen up against me; a band of ruthless men seeks my life, and they do not set you before them.
15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.
16 Turn to me and be gracious to me; give your strength to your servant, and save the son of your maidservant.
17 Show me a sign of your favor, that those who hate me may see and be put to shame because you, LORD, have helped me and comforted me. - Psalms 86

If Mr. Gear's standards are what we go by, it would seem to me that this psalm is very ego-centric. Me, me, me.

John,

Where was this Psalm 86 (ESV) 'performed'? It was a PRAYER of one man, David. It was not an egocentric song performed by Jesus culture. A prayer to the Lord by one man is radically different from what I have been discussing.

Why must you twist what I wrote? You have applied one man's prayer to the Lord and made it agree with what I have stated about egocentric contemporary songs. You have violated a fundamental of conversation on this forum or anywhere else. This is another straw man fallacy you have given of my position. We can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

Oz

 

[John Robie]

John,

Where was this Psalm 86 (ESV) 'performed'? It was a PRAYER of one man, David. It was not an egocentric song performed by Jesus culture. A prayer to the Lord by one man is radically different from what I have been discussing.

Why must you twist what I wrote? You have applied one man's prayer to the Lord and made it agree with what I have stated about egocentric contemporary songs. You have violated a fundamental of conversation on this forum or anywhere else. This is another straw man fallacy you have given of my position. We can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

Oz

I thought it was common knowledge that the psalms were songs sung by the people. That's why many of them have directions to the choirmaster.
Also, I didn't insult you in my posts. I address exactly what you said. And linked to it so there'd be context. So please do not insult me by saying that I created some sort of straw man. I was very careful and respectful in my post. I think asking for the same consideration is not too much to ask for.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

John,

Where was this Psalm 86 (ESV) 'performed'? It was a PRAYER of one man, David. It was not an egocentric song performed by Jesus culture. A prayer to the Lord by one man is radically different from what I have been discussing.

Why must you twist what I wrote? You have applied one man's prayer to the Lord and made it agree with what I have stated about egocentric contemporary songs. You have violated a fundamental of conversation on this forum or anywhere else. This is another straw man fallacy you have given of my position. We can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

Oz

Oz,

You still never answered my two questions, please answer them.

Also don't forget to respond to Twin's post.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I went and looked up Mr. Gear's responses in the other thread. I see that he addressed the concerns, but I disagree with his conclusion. I do agree with his general premise, though, that God should be central to the songs we sing. But isolating words like "I" and "me" and stating that this makes the songs egocentric is a bit off the mark.

There are I and me statements all through the psalms. And one of the verses Mr. Gear took issue with was "It's no longer I who live, but Christ
Who lives within me". This is found in scripture, written by Paul. And the there is echoed through the song. Also reflected is Paul's assertion that God's power is made perfect in our weakness. Mr. Gear seems to have issue with that, and appears to have said that it's unbiblical. "It is false teaching to say that God the Lord is strong 'in my brokenness'", is what was said.

So while I commend Mr. Gear's desire to ensure that songs of worship or God-centered, I think his criticism of that song missed the mark.

Here's the link to his post so that it can be read in context so that I cannot be accused of being misleading.

Great post brother, Amen!

Well Said, very graceful

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

John,

Where was this Psalm 86 (ESV) 'performed'? It was a PRAYER of one man, David. It was not an egocentric song performed by Jesus culture. A prayer to the Lord by one man is radically different from what I have been discussing.

Why must you twist what I wrote? You have applied one man's prayer to the Lord and made it agree with what I have stated about egocentric contemporary songs. You have violated a fundamental of conversation on this forum or anywhere else. This is another straw man fallacy you have given of my position. We can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

Oz

Oz... still waiting to hear from you.

You have my two questions up at top, and also twin's post to reply to. Also have to respond to John's very gracious posts.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz... still waiting to hear from you.

You have my two questions up at top, and also twin's post to reply to. Also have to respond to John's very gracious posts.

Niggling me does not work.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Niggling me does not work.

Not trying to be a niggler, answer the questions when you get a chance, my two questions, twins post and also John's...

 

[twin1954]

Not trying to be a niggler, answer the questions when you get a chance, my two questions, twins post and also John's...

I don't expect that he will.

 

[John Robie]

I've been doing this long enough to know not to expect a response, for if there was to be one, it would have happened. Instead, the time will be most likely misused with excuses as to why we will not receive one.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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[twob4me]

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