A Reminder: Who do we think we are?

[Mark Quayle]

In every conversation that I have read and every conversation in which I have participated here, there is a point-of-view matter I think should be addressed, because we keep missing it.

We say, concerning unbelievers, that they don't understand the relationship of believer to God, and we apply all sorts of subjects to the matter --King to servant, Sanctification, Sovereignty vs Free Will, Complete submission, Bride of Christ, Dwelling place of God, etc etc etc. --all good, all true, all relevant and useful, but we believers do not realize that we too do not understand it either. But what I have to say here is not to criticize our lack of understanding, nor even, really, our lack of humility in the matter, though it certainly does deal with humility and pride.

The following is my attempt to describe it:

There is an attitude built into the flesh and it seems made by teaching and upbringing and example more prevalent lately than in centuries past: That we wrongly consider ourselves to be complete beings, dignified in and of ourselves "as is" to be qualified as worthy of consideration by God as someone to be dealt with, to whom as existing people (although created) he owes us a certain regard, if not outright respect. Even those of us who say that God owes us nothing forget or disregard the fact that nothing we do amounts to anything apart from him, but not only what we do, but indeed who we are and what we are.

We speak of duty, of worthiness of one thing over another, of response to God, of love for truth; put any subject here, and we talk in terms of us as opposed to God --and rightly so, because we are not him, but there we exalt ourselves to a deserving status. Though belief, obedience, praise, and every worthy pursuit may consume our being, we are not the people we think we are, whose efforts gain God's approval as though we are anything without him.

I don't know how to describe this well; there are so many ways to come at it that may be better, but I hope you all see what I am trying to get at. One subject in particular I will use as an example, that I think is particularly useful to point out: When I hear the argument against the eternal infernal punishment of sinners as presented by unbelievers and universalists, or the arguments for it, both assume the value of the person the subject relates to. I need to insist: God is the ONLY one who can assess value; he places it --that is, he endows it. We are only what he says we are. We are only what he made us. What we are is by Him. So it is that when a "person" is condemned that person is hardly the same sort of being as the person who is purified as a member of God's dwelling place. Who can accuse God (neverminding all the other reasons, such as his absolute right to do whatever he will with his creation) of unfairness in sending sinners to eternal punishment when what that "person" he sends there hardly qualifies as worthy to be called a being?

Our very existence is upheld by the word of his power. Were he to withdraw his hand we would cease to even have ever existed --so how can we think we are dignified beings worthy of consideration as apart from him?

 

[bbbbbbb]

In every conversation that I have read and every conversation in which I have participated here, there is a point-of-view matter I think should be addressed, because we keep missing it.

We say, concerning unbelievers, that they don't understand the relationship of believer to God, and we apply all sorts of subjects to the matter --King to servant, Sanctification, Sovereignty vs Free Will, Complete submission, Bride of Christ, Dwelling place of God, etc etc etc. --all good, all true, all relevant and useful, but we believers do not realize that we too do not understand it either. But what I have to say here is not to criticize our lack of understanding, nor even, really, our lack of humility in the matter, though it certainly does deal with humility and pride.

The following is my attempt to describe it:

There is an attitude built into the flesh and it seems made by teaching and upbringing and example more prevalent lately than in centuries past: That we wrongly consider ourselves to be complete beings, dignified in and of ourselves "as is" to be qualified as worthy of consideration by God as someone to be dealt with, to whom as existing people (although created) he owes us a certain regard, if not outright respect. Even those of us who say that God owes us nothing forget or disregard the fact that nothing we do amounts to anything apart from him, but not only what we do, but indeed who we are and what we are.

We speak of duty, of worthiness of one thing over another, of response to God, of love for truth; put any subject here, and we talk in terms of us as opposed to God --and rightly so, because we are not him, but there we exalt ourselves to a deserving status. Though belief, obedience, praise, and every worthy pursuit may consume our being, we are not the people we think we are, whose efforts gain God's approval as though we are anything without him.

I don't know how to describe this well; there are so many ways to come at it that may be better, but I hope you all see what I am trying to get at. One subject in particular I will use as an example, that I think is particularly useful to point out: When I hear the argument against the eternal infernal punishment of sinners as presented by unbelievers and universalists, or the arguments for it, both assume the value of the person the subject relates to. I need to insist: God is the ONLY one who can assess value; he places it --that is, he endows it. We are only what he says we are. We are only what he made us. What we are is by Him. So it is that when a "person" is condemned that person is hardly the same sort of being as the person who is purified as a member of God's dwelling place. Who can accuse God (neverminding all the other reasons, such as his absolute right to do whatever he will with his creation) of unfairness in sending sinners to eternal punishment when what that "person" he sends there hardly qualifies as worthy to be called a being?

Our very existence is upheld by the word of his power. Were he to withdraw his hand we would cease to even have ever existed --so how can we think we are dignified beings worthy of consideration as apart from him?

In every conversation that I have read and every conversation in which I have participated here, there is a point-of-view matter I think should be addressed, because we keep missing it.

We say, concerning unbelievers, that they don't understand the relationship of believer to God, and we apply all sorts of subjects to the matter --King to servant, Sanctification, Sovereignty vs Free Will, Complete submission, Bride of Christ, Dwelling place of God, etc etc etc. --all good, all true, all relevant and useful, but we believers do not realize that we too do not understand it either. But what I have to say here is not to criticize our lack of understanding, nor even, really, our lack of humility in the matter, though it certainly does deal with humility and pride.

The following is my attempt to describe it:

There is an attitude built into the flesh and it seems made by teaching and upbringing and example more prevalent lately than in centuries past: That we wrongly consider ourselves to be complete beings, dignified in and of ourselves "as is" to be qualified as worthy of consideration by God as someone to be dealt with, to whom as existing people (although created) he owes us a certain regard, if not outright respect. Even those of us who say that God owes us nothing forget or disregard the fact that nothing we do amounts to anything apart from him, but not only what we do, but indeed who we are and what we are.

We speak of duty, of worthiness of one thing over another, of response to God, of love for truth; put any subject here, and we talk in terms of us as opposed to God --and rightly so, because we are not him, but there we exalt ourselves to a deserving status. Though belief, obedience, praise, and every worthy pursuit may consume our being, we are not the people we think we are, whose efforts gain God's approval as though we are anything without him.

I don't know how to describe this well; there are so many ways to come at it that may be better, but I hope you all see what I am trying to get at. One subject in particular I will use as an example, that I think is particularly useful to point out: When I hear the argument against the eternal infernal punishment of sinners as presented by unbelievers and universalists, or the arguments for it, both assume the value of the person the subject relates to. I need to insist: God is the ONLY one who can assess value; he places it --that is, he endows it. We are only what he says we are. We are only what he made us. What we are is by Him. So it is that when a "person" is condemned that person is hardly the same sort of being as the person who is purified as a member of God's dwelling place. Who can accuse God (neverminding all the other reasons, such as his absolute right to do whatever he will with his creation) of unfairness in sending sinners to eternal punishment when what that "person" he sends there hardly qualifies as worthy to be called a being?

Our very existence is upheld by the word of his power. Were he to withdraw his hand we would cease to even have ever existed --so how can we think we are dignified beings worthy of consideration as apart from him?

The short answer to your final, rhetorical, question is, of course, we can't.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In every conversation that I have read and every conversation in which I have participated here, there is a point-of-view matter I think should be addressed, because we keep missing it.

We say, concerning unbelievers, that they don't understand the relationship of believer to God, and we apply all sorts of subjects to the matter --King to servant, Sanctification, Sovereignty vs Free Will, Complete submission, Bride of Christ, Dwelling place of God, etc etc etc. --all good, all true, all relevant and useful, but we believers do not realize that we too do not understand it either. But what I have to say here is not to criticize our lack of understanding, nor even, really, our lack of humility in the matter, though it certainly does deal with humility and pride.

The following is my attempt to describe it:

There is an attitude built into the flesh and it seems made by teaching and upbringing and example more prevalent lately than in centuries past: That we wrongly consider ourselves to be complete beings, dignified in and of ourselves "as is" to be qualified as worthy of consideration by God as someone to be dealt with, to whom as existing people (although created) he owes us a certain regard, if not outright respect. Even those of us who say that God owes us nothing forget or disregard the fact that nothing we do amounts to anything apart from him, but not only what we do, but indeed who we are and what we are.

We speak of duty, of worthiness of one thing over another, of response to God, of love for truth; put any subject here, and we talk in terms of us as opposed to God --and rightly so, because we are not him, but there we exalt ourselves to a deserving status. Though belief, obedience, praise, and every worthy pursuit may consume our being, we are not the people we think we are, whose efforts gain God's approval as though we are anything without him.

I don't know how to describe this well; there are so many ways to come at it that may be better, but I hope you all see what I am trying to get at. One subject in particular I will use as an example, that I think is particularly useful to point out: When I hear the argument against the eternal infernal punishment of sinners as presented by unbelievers and universalists, or the arguments for it, both assume the value of the person the subject relates to. I need to insist: God is the ONLY one who can assess value; he places it --that is, he endows it. We are only what he says we are. We are only what he made us. What we are is by Him. So it is that when a "person" is condemned that person is hardly the same sort of being as the person who is purified as a member of God's dwelling place. Who can accuse God (neverminding all the other reasons, such as his absolute right to do whatever he will with his creation) of unfairness in sending sinners to eternal punishment when what that "person" he sends there hardly qualifies as worthy to be called a being?

Our very existence is upheld by the word of his power. Were he to withdraw his hand we would cease to even have ever existed --so how can we think we are dignified beings worthy of consideration as apart from him?

In every conversation that I have read and every conversation in which I have participated here, there is a point-of-view matter I think should be addressed, because we keep missing it.

We say, concerning unbelievers, that they don't understand the relationship of believer to God, and we apply all sorts of subjects to the matter --King to servant, Sanctification, Sovereignty vs Free Will, Complete submission, Bride of Christ, Dwelling place of God, etc etc etc. --all good, all true, all relevant and useful, but we believers do not realize that we too do not understand it either. But what I have to say here is not to criticize our lack of understanding, nor even, really, our lack of humility in the matter, though it certainly does deal with humility and pride.

The following is my attempt to describe it:

There is an attitude built into the flesh and it seems made by teaching and upbringing and example more prevalent lately than in centuries past: That we wrongly consider ourselves to be complete beings, dignified in and of ourselves "as is" to be qualified as worthy of consideration by God as someone to be dealt with, to whom as existing people (although created) he owes us a certain regard, if not outright respect. Even those of us who say that God owes us nothing forget or disregard the fact that nothing we do amounts to anything apart from him, but not only what we do, but indeed who we are and what we are.

We speak of duty, of worthiness of one thing over another, of response to God, of love for truth; put any subject here, and we talk in terms of us as opposed to God --and rightly so, because we are not him, but there we exalt ourselves to a deserving status. Though belief, obedience, praise, and every worthy pursuit may consume our being, we are not the people we think we are, whose efforts gain God's approval as though we are anything without him.

I don't know how to describe this well; there are so many ways to come at it that may be better, but I hope you all see what I am trying to get at. One subject in particular I will use as an example, that I think is particularly useful to point out: When I hear the argument against the eternal infernal punishment of sinners as presented by unbelievers and universalists, or the arguments for it, both assume the value of the person the subject relates to. I need to insist: God is the ONLY one who can assess value; he places it --that is, he endows it. We are only what he says we are. We are only what he made us. What we are is by Him. So it is that when a "person" is condemned that person is hardly the same sort of being as the person who is purified as a member of God's dwelling place. Who can accuse God (neverminding all the other reasons, such as his absolute right to do whatever he will with his creation) of unfairness in sending sinners to eternal punishment when what that "person" he sends there hardly qualifies as worthy to be called a being?

Our very existence is upheld by the word of his power. Were he to withdraw his hand we would cease to even have ever existed --so how can we think we are dignified beings worthy of consideration as apart from him?

The short answer to your final, rhetorical, question is, of course, we can't.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In every conversation that I have read and every conversation in which I have participated here, there is a point-of-view matter I think should be addressed, because we keep missing it.

We say, concerning unbelievers, that they don't understand the relationship of believer to God, and we apply all sorts of subjects to the matter --King to servant, Sanctification, Sovereignty vs Free Will, Complete submission, Bride of Christ, Dwelling place of God, etc etc etc. --all good, all true, all relevant and useful, but we believers do not realize that we too do not understand it either. But what I have to say here is not to criticize our lack of understanding, nor even, really, our lack of humility in the matter, though it certainly does deal with humility and pride.

The following is my attempt to describe it:

There is an attitude built into the flesh and it seems made by teaching and upbringing and example more prevalent lately than in centuries past: That we wrongly consider ourselves to be complete beings, dignified in and of ourselves "as is" to be qualified as worthy of consideration by God as someone to be dealt with, to whom as existing people (although created) he owes us a certain regard, if not outright respect. Even those of us who say that God owes us nothing forget or disregard the fact that nothing we do amounts to anything apart from him, but not only what we do, but indeed who we are and what we are.

We speak of duty, of worthiness of one thing over another, of response to God, of love for truth; put any subject here, and we talk in terms of us as opposed to God --and rightly so, because we are not him, but there we exalt ourselves to a deserving status. Though belief, obedience, praise, and every worthy pursuit may consume our being, we are not the people we think we are, whose efforts gain God's approval as though we are anything without him.

I don't know how to describe this well; there are so many ways to come at it that may be better, but I hope you all see what I am trying to get at. One subject in particular I will use as an example, that I think is particularly useful to point out: When I hear the argument against the eternal infernal punishment of sinners as presented by unbelievers and universalists, or the arguments for it, both assume the value of the person the subject relates to. I need to insist: God is the ONLY one who can assess value; he places it --that is, he endows it. We are only what he says we are. We are only what he made us. What we are is by Him. So it is that when a "person" is condemned that person is hardly the same sort of being as the person who is purified as a member of God's dwelling place. Who can accuse God (neverminding all the other reasons, such as his absolute right to do whatever he will with his creation) of unfairness in sending sinners to eternal punishment when what that "person" he sends there hardly qualifies as worthy to be called a being?

Our very existence is upheld by the word of his power. Were he to withdraw his hand we would cease to even have ever existed --so how can we think we are dignified beings worthy of consideration as apart from him?

In every conversation that I have read and every conversation in which I have participated here, there is a point-of-view matter I think should be addressed, because we keep missing it.

We say, concerning unbelievers, that they don't understand the relationship of believer to God, and we apply all sorts of subjects to the matter --King to servant, Sanctification, Sovereignty vs Free Will, Complete submission, Bride of Christ, Dwelling place of God, etc etc etc. --all good, all true, all relevant and useful, but we believers do not realize that we too do not understand it either. But what I have to say here is not to criticize our lack of understanding, nor even, really, our lack of humility in the matter, though it certainly does deal with humility and pride.

The following is my attempt to describe it:

There is an attitude built into the flesh and it seems made by teaching and upbringing and example more prevalent lately than in centuries past: That we wrongly consider ourselves to be complete beings, dignified in and of ourselves "as is" to be qualified as worthy of consideration by God as someone to be dealt with, to whom as existing people (although created) he owes us a certain regard, if not outright respect. Even those of us who say that God owes us nothing forget or disregard the fact that nothing we do amounts to anything apart from him, but not only what we do, but indeed who we are and what we are.

We speak of duty, of worthiness of one thing over another, of response to God, of love for truth; put any subject here, and we talk in terms of us as opposed to God --and rightly so, because we are not him, but there we exalt ourselves to a deserving status. Though belief, obedience, praise, and every worthy pursuit may consume our being, we are not the people we think we are, whose efforts gain God's approval as though we are anything without him.

I don't know how to describe this well; there are so many ways to come at it that may be better, but I hope you all see what I am trying to get at. One subject in particular I will use as an example, that I think is particularly useful to point out: When I hear the argument against the eternal infernal punishment of sinners as presented by unbelievers and universalists, or the arguments for it, both assume the value of the person the subject relates to. I need to insist: God is the ONLY one who can assess value; he places it --that is, he endows it. We are only what he says we are. We are only what he made us. What we are is by Him. So it is that when a "person" is condemned that person is hardly the same sort of being as the person who is purified as a member of God's dwelling place. Who can accuse God (neverminding all the other reasons, such as his absolute right to do whatever he will with his creation) of unfairness in sending sinners to eternal punishment when what that "person" he sends there hardly qualifies as worthy to be called a being?

Our very existence is upheld by the word of his power. Were he to withdraw his hand we would cease to even have ever existed --so how can we think we are dignified beings worthy of consideration as apart from him?

The short answer to your final, rhetorical, question is, of course, we can't.

 

[Mark Quayle]

HaHa I guess I should have said, "...why do we think we are dignified beings worthy of ..."

 

[Newtheran]

Our very existence is upheld by the word of his power. Were he to withdraw his hand we would cease to even have ever existed --so how can we think we are dignified beings worthy of consideration as apart from him?

Why? Everyone worships something. A lot of people worship themselves. Pretty easy to think you are a dignified being when you are the center of your own religion.

 

[Major1]

Why? Everyone worships something. A lot of people worship themselves. Pretty easy to think you are a dignified being when you are the center of your own religion.

Agreed.

When man rejects the truth of God, it then becomes a life down the path of least resistance.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Why? Everyone worships something. A lot of people worship themselves. Pretty easy to think you are a dignified being when you are the center of your own religion.

true that