A rejection of Original Sin and Atonement Theology

[TLK Valentine]

I'm clearly not what anyone here would call a "Christian," but even if I was, I could not in good conscience accept the idea of "Original Sin" or the need to atone for it. This is why:

(I posted this in another thread some time ago; forgive the copy/paste)

Secular science and observation has shown us that:

• Life on Earth is in a constant state of change. New species rise, grow and adapt, while old species die out and go extinct. This planet has had five such extinction events in its past, and is currently in the middle of the sixth, arguably caused by... us.
• The Earth itself is in a constant state of flux. Tectonic plates shift, mountains rise and fall (very slowly, but they rise and fall nonetheless), rivers flood and dry out, the climate warms and cools, turning forests into deserts and tundra into grassland... you get the picture.
• The entire universe is ever-growing and changing. Stars, solar systems, entire galaxies, trillions in number, of which we are but the tiniest most insignificant speck in the biggest of all big pictures, are at this moment, being born, forming, going through predictable life cycles, and fizzling out on a time scale one would need a scientific calculator to even get a grip on...

Now, what does all this mean?

• "Creation" is an ongoing process, continuing to this day.
• If Creation is ongoing, then there was never a time when it was "finished."
• If it was never "finished," then it was never "perfect."
• If it was never "perfect," then there was never any kind of fall from that nonexistent "perfection."
• As there was no "fall," there was no "Original Sin," which caused it.
• Without a "fall," then Jesus' purpose on this Earth could not have been to "restore" Creation or any part of it to a "perfection" that never existed in the first place.
• This would necessarily mean that "Jesus died for our (Original) sins" is nonsensical.

I've heard it said (and I agree) that because "creation" is ongoing, its condition is not "fallen," but rather, incomplete. Jesus, therefore, is not the way to "reconcile" us with a God our mythical ancestors (Adam & Eve) sinned against, but to complete the work and bring creation to the perfect state of oneness with God that it never had before, but will someday... I can see that.

Thoughts?

 

[HTacianas]

I'm clearly not what anyone here would call a "Christian," but even if I was, I could not in good conscience accept the idea of "Original Sin" or the need to atone for it. This is why:

(I posted this in another thread some time ago; forgive the copy/paste)

Secular science and observation has shown us that:

• Life on Earth is in a constant state of change. New species rise, grow and adapt, while old species die out and go extinct. This planet has had five such extinction events in its past, and is currently in the middle of the sixth, arguably caused by... us.
• The Earth itself is in a constant state of flux. Tectonic plates shift, mountains rise and fall (very slowly, but they rise and fall nonetheless), rivers flood and dry out, the climate warms and cools, turning forests into deserts and tundra into grassland... you get the picture.
• The entire universe is ever-growing and changing. Stars, solar systems, entire galaxies, trillions in number, of which we are but the tiniest most insignificant speck in the biggest of all big pictures, are at this moment, being born, forming, going through predictable life cycles, and fizzling out on a time scale one would need a scientific calculator to even get a grip on...

Now, what does all this mean?

• "Creation" is an ongoing process, continuing to this day.
• If Creation is ongoing, then there was never a time when it was "finished."
• If it was never "finished," then it was never "perfect."
• If it was never "perfect," then there was never any kind of fall from that nonexistent "perfection."
• As there was no "fall," there was no "Original Sin," which caused it.
• Without a "fall," then Jesus' purpose on this Earth could not have been to "restore" Creation or any part of it to a "perfection" that never existed in the first place.
• This would necessarily mean that "Jesus died for our (Original) sins" is nonsensical.

I've heard it said (and I agree) that because "creation" is ongoing, its condition is not "fallen," but rather, incomplete. Jesus, therefore, is not the way to "reconcile" us with a God our mythical ancestors (Adam & Eve) sinned against, but to complete the work and bring creation to the perfect state of oneness with God that it never had before, but will someday... I can see that.

Thoughts?

You seem to be getting caught up at "original sin". Seems you hold to the Western view of original sin. The Western view, in short, has it that all mankind is born with an inherited guilt called original sin. And as you have pointed out, the idea has its flaws to say the least. The Eastern view is that mankind is born with a propensity to sin but that guilt only comes from carrying out sin. I hold to the Eastern view.

With that in mind, society itself, much like creation itself, expects its members to live "crime free". If we didn't expect members of society to live crime free we wouldn't threaten to punish members of society if they commit crimes. But people commit crimes every day anyway. It comes from the propensity to commit crime. Someone angers another person and that person then assaults them. The assault is the crime that came about from the perpetrator's propensity to commit crime. We are expected to control that urge. We have a propensity to sin -for whatever reasons- but we are expected to control that urge to sin.

All mankind is expected to live up to a standard, yet all mankind has failed to do so. That is the fall of man. The sacrifice of Christ can be described as a penal substitute for previous sin but after we accept that belief we are to once again live up to a sin free existence. But the sacrifice goes further than merely a penal substitute. It sets the creation back to its intended order. If a person steals something it creates an inherent disorder. If for no other reason some accountant's books aren't going to balance. Something is missing. Something is out of order. Even punishment for the crime does not return things to their original order. It takes something else.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'm clearly not what anyone here would call a "Christian," but even if I was, I could not in good conscience accept the idea of "Original Sin" or the need to atone for it. This is why:

(I posted this in another thread some time ago; forgive the copy/paste)

Secular science and observation has shown us that:

• Life on Earth is in a constant state of change. New species rise, grow and adapt, while old species die out and go extinct. This planet has had five such extinction events in its past, and is currently in the middle of the sixth, arguably caused by... us.
• The Earth itself is in a constant state of flux. Tectonic plates shift, mountains rise and fall (very slowly, but they rise and fall nonetheless), rivers flood and dry out, the climate warms and cools, turning forests into deserts and tundra into grassland... you get the picture.
• The entire universe is ever-growing and changing. Stars, solar systems, entire galaxies, trillions in number, of which we are but the tiniest most insignificant speck in the biggest of all big pictures, are at this moment, being born, forming, going through predictable life cycles, and fizzling out on a time scale one would need a scientific calculator to even get a grip on...

Now, what does all this mean?

• "Creation" is an ongoing process, continuing to this day.
• If Creation is ongoing, then there was never a time when it was "finished."
• If it was never "finished," then it was never "perfect."
• If it was never "perfect," then there was never any kind of fall from that nonexistent "perfection."
• As there was no "fall," there was no "Original Sin," which caused it.
• Without a "fall," then Jesus' purpose on this Earth could not have been to "restore" Creation or any part of it to a "perfection" that never existed in the first place.
• This would necessarily mean that "Jesus died for our (Original) sins" is nonsensical.

I've heard it said (and I agree) that because "creation" is ongoing, its condition is not "fallen," but rather, incomplete. Jesus, therefore, is not the way to "reconcile" us with a God our mythical ancestors (Adam & Eve) sinned against, but to complete the work and bring creation to the perfect state of oneness with God that it never had before, but will someday... I can see that.

Thoughts?

It is only a theory that the earth was never completely formed. Jude tells us that the earth was made for the angels, and if so it was certainly complete, and perfect. Their rebellion (the real 'original sin') led to it's destruction, which is seen yet today. Adam and Eve reenacted that sin in the perfect/complete garden of Eden and were cast out, as were the angels before them. Many scriptures describe the restoration of the earth, including the destruction of the mountains, 'melting with fervent heat' picturing their subduction back into the fiery mantle.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Creation" is an ongoing process, continuing to this day.

That's true. That it's an ongoing process is a perfection not an imperfection.

If Creation is ongoing, then there was never a time when it was "finished."

Well, creation is ongoing but what is it lacking that has yet to be created?

If it was never "finished," then it was never "perfect."

Something perfect doesn't mean it is not created to be more perfect. Created to perfectly reach a higher state of life/perfection.

If it was never "perfect," then there was never any kind of fall from that nonexistent "perfection."

You know when one looks at human nature we know somethings missing. It's supposed to be better than this. We're supposed to be better than this. As it pertains to human life, how could the concept of something better exist if something better didn't already exist?

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's true. That it's an ongoing process is a perfection not an imperfection.


Well, creation is ongoing but what is it lacking that has yet to be created?

This is an interesting notion that I've considered in the past -- rather than "finished" like a work of art, creation's perfection comes from it humming along smoothly like a well-oiled machine.

Something perfect doesn't mean it is not created to be more perfect. Created to perfectly reach a higher state of life/perfection.

"More perfect"? "Higher state of perfection"?

Alas, perfection doesn't have levels. It's like virginity -- you either have it, or you don't.

You know when one looks at human nature we know somethings missing. It's supposed to be better than this. We're supposed to be better than this. As it pertains to human life, how could the concept of something better exist if something better didn't already exist?

Which brings me back to my point -- we're not fallen, we're incomplete. Something does seem to be missing, but it's something we never had, not something lost because of what supposedly happened a long time ago..

 

[Eloy Craft]

More perfect"? "Higher state of perfection"?

Alas, perfection doesn't have levels. It's like virginity -- you either have it, or you don't.

But the other animals are perfect. Wouldn't humans require perfections that the other animals don't? I mean say like the power to apprehend truth perfectly. Truth ould be a more perfect good than fresh killed meat.

Which brings me back to my point -- we're not fallen, we're incomplete. Something does seem to be missing, but it's something we never had, not something lost because of what supposedly happened a long time ago..

If what we lack is inconceivable how do we know we are incomplete?

 

[TLK Valentine]

You seem to be getting caught up at "original sin". Seems you hold to the Western view of original sin. The Western view, in short, has it that all mankind is born with an inherited guilt called original sin. And as you have pointed out, the idea has its flaws to say the least. The Eastern view is that mankind is born with a propensity to sin but that guilt only comes from carrying out sin. I hold to the Eastern view.

Well, it's rather hard not to be caught up in it:

Romans 5:11-12 -- Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

All mankind is expected to live up to a standard, yet all mankind has failed to do so. That is the fall of man. The sacrifice of Christ can be described as a penal substitute for previous sin but after we accept that belief we are to once again live up to a sin free existence. But the sacrifice goes further than merely a penal substitute.

It would have to -- because as it stands, it's an atrocious mockery of anything that could be considered "justice."

It sets the creation back to its intended order. If a person steals something it creates an inherent disorder. If for no other reason some accountant's books aren't going to balance. Something is missing. Something is out of order. Even punishment for the crime does not return things to their original order. It takes something else.

And how is Christ's crucifixion that "something else"?

 

[TLK Valentine]

But the other animals are perfect. Wouldn't humans require perfections that the other animals don't? I mean say like the power to apprehend truth perfectly. Truth ould be a more perfect good than fresh killed meat.

"perfect" how?

If what we lack is inconceivable how do we know we are incomplete?

Perhaps we're not incomplete -- perhaps we only think we are.

 

[HTacianas]

Well, it's rather hard not to be caught up in it:

Romans 5:11-12 -- Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.




It would have to -- because as it stands, it's an atrocious mockery of anything that could be considered "justice."



And how is Christ's crucifixion that "something else"?

Let's look at Romans 5:12:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,

and death through sin,

so also death was passed on to all men,

because all sinned.

I've heard before that Augustine, the "Father of Original Sin" in the West had a faulty translation of Romans and if I remember right it was specifically Romans 5:12. In the end, death is passed to all men because all sinned. Not that death passed to all men absent their own sin but only because a form of sin was passed along to them. It was because all sinned that death was passed on to them. I've wondered before what would become of a person who lived without sinning at all. Would they live forever? I don't know.

Now, you say that "it's an atrocious mockery of anything that could be considered "justice." But we have resolved conflicts the same way all through history. Some war is going on, especially a civil war, and some king or another offers amnesty to the opposing side if they lay down their arms and live peacefully. And a lot of war criminals go unpunished. That is in effect the gist of Christianity. Mankind is in a state of rebellion against God and God wants it to end. To end it He offers the sacrifice of Christ to all who will accept it and live in peace. It's the meaning of Luke 14:31-32:

31 - Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?

32 - And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.

Christianity is God's terms for peace.

 

[eleos1954]

I'm clearly not what anyone here would call a "Christian," but even if I was, I could not in good conscience accept the idea of "Original Sin" or the need to atone for it. This is why:

(I posted this in another thread some time ago; forgive the copy/paste)

Secular science and observation has shown us that:

• Life on Earth is in a constant state of change. New species rise, grow and adapt, while old species die out and go extinct. This planet has had five such extinction events in its past, and is currently in the middle of the sixth, arguably caused by... us.
• The Earth itself is in a constant state of flux. Tectonic plates shift, mountains rise and fall (very slowly, but they rise and fall nonetheless), rivers flood and dry out, the climate warms and cools, turning forests into deserts and tundra into grassland... you get the picture.
• The entire universe is ever-growing and changing. Stars, solar systems, entire galaxies, trillions in number, of which we are but the tiniest most insignificant speck in the biggest of all big pictures, are at this moment, being born, forming, going through predictable life cycles, and fizzling out on a time scale one would need a scientific calculator to even get a grip on...

Now, what does all this mean?

• "Creation" is an ongoing process, continuing to this day.
• If Creation is ongoing, then there was never a time when it was "finished."
• If it was never "finished," then it was never "perfect."
• If it was never "perfect," then there was never any kind of fall from that nonexistent "perfection."
• As there was no "fall," there was no "Original Sin," which caused it.
• Without a "fall," then Jesus' purpose on this Earth could not have been to "restore" Creation or any part of it to a "perfection" that never existed in the first place.
• This would necessarily mean that "Jesus died for our (Original) sins" is nonsensical.

I've heard it said (and I agree) that because "creation" is ongoing, its condition is not "fallen," but rather, incomplete. Jesus, therefore, is not the way to "reconcile" us with a God our mythical ancestors (Adam & Eve) sinned against, but to complete the work and bring creation to the perfect state of oneness with God that it never had before, but will someday... I can see that.

Thoughts?

The fall of Adam and Eve explains how sin entered the world. Sin actually began in heaven ... and sin brought death. Before sin entered into the world (through Adam & Eve) via the influence of satan .... there was no death.

The Bible also states the whole creation has been groaning (decaying) since that time.

Romans 8:22

English Standard Version
For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now

Biblically what is sin? Transgression of the law.

The whole creation (the universe and everything in it) everything God originally created was good, good, good and VERY good.

All of Gods VERY good creation was/is affected by sin.

One day He will make a new heavens and earth and that will be the restoration of
all things ..... no sin in it ... nor will it rise again ... AMEN!!!!!!

Acts 3:21
New Living Translation
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Restoration ..... a world without sin nor tainted by it in any way... back to VERY good.

Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The fall of Adam and Eve explains how sin entered the world. Sin actually began in heaven ... and sin brought death. Before sin entered into the world (through Adam & Eve) via the influence of satan .... there was no death.

The Bible also states the whole creation has been groaning (decaying) since that time.

Romans 8:22

English Standard Version
For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now

Biblically what is sin? Transgression of the law.

The whole creation (the universe and everything in it) everything God originally created was good, good, good and VERY good.

All of Gods VERY good creation was/is affected by sin.

One day He will make a new heavens and earth and that will be the restoration of
all things ..... no sin in it ... nor will it rise again ... AMEN!!!!!!

Acts 3:21
New Living Translation
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Restoration ..... a world without sin nor tainted by it in any way... back to VERY good.

Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Except, as you pointed out, Sin originated in Heaven -- which necessarily means Heaven ain't all it's cracked up to be, either.

 

[eleos1954]

Except, as you pointed out, Sin originated in Heaven -- which necessarily means Heaven ain't all it's cracked up to be, either.

no .. it shows choice .... also .... satan and his angels were cast out of heaven because they sinned .... that is Gods partial judgement for them ... their final fate ... yet to come.

True love requires choice.

 

[TLK Valentine]

no .. it shows choice .... also .... satan and his angels were cast out of heaven because they sinned .... that is Gods partial judgement for them ... their final fate ... yet to come.

True love requires choice.

Except that Heaven is portrayed as perfection itself -- as it is in the presence of God, it's hard to imagine it being otherwise... and yet, even there, things went sideways fast.

It seems unlikely that God is going to risk making the same mistake twice.

 

[eleos1954]

Except that Heaven is portrayed as perfection itself -- as it is in the presence of God, it's hard to imagine it being otherwise... and yet, even there, things went sideways fast.

It seems unlikely that God is going to risk making the same mistake twice.

God don't make mistakes. He knows what is going to happen before it happens.

He didn't make the angels choices for them but knew what their choices would be. Same with mankind. Why? Because God is love.

Do some thinking about love and choice.

God Bless.

 

[TLK Valentine]

God don't make mistakes. He knows what is going to happen before it happens.

He didn't make the angels choices for them but knew what their choices would be. Same with mankind. Why? Because God is love.

Do some thinking about love and choice.

God Bless.

I'd rather do some thinking about choice and responsibility... "God is Love" doesn't let Him off the hook for what He has caused.

 

[eleos1954]

I'd rather do some thinking about choice and responsibility... "God is Love" doesn't let Him off the hook for what He has caused.

The only thing God "caused" was in creating beings with the freedom to choose. Love can not be forced or else it's not love. God is love.

Yes and we are responsible for our choices, that is biblical teaching as well.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The only thing God "caused" was in creating beings with the freedom to choose.

Knowing in advance what choices they were going to make.

If you give a gun to a man you know is going to use it to shoot someone, do you not share in the responsibility?

Love can not be forced or else it's not love. God is love.

Yes and we are responsible for our choices, that is biblical teaching as well.

Indeed -- we are all responsible for our choices; God is no exception.

 

[Ed1wolf]

I'm clearly not what anyone here would call a "Christian," but even if I was, I could not in good conscience accept the idea of "Original Sin" or the need to atone for it. This is why:

(I posted this in another thread some time ago; forgive the copy/paste)

Secular science and observation has shown us that:

• Life on Earth is in a constant state of change. New species rise, grow and adapt, while old species die out and go extinct. This planet has had five such extinction events in its past, and is currently in the middle of the sixth, arguably caused by... us.

• Actually no new genera have arisen in 2 million years.

tv:

• The Earth itself is in a constant state of flux. Tectonic plates shift, mountains rise and fall (very slowly, but they rise and fall nonetheless), rivers flood and dry out, the climate warms and cools, turning forests into deserts and tundra into grassland... you get the picture.
• The entire universe is ever-growing and changing. Stars, solar systems, entire galaxies, trillions in number, of which we are but the tiniest most insignificant speck in the biggest of all big pictures, are at this moment, being born, forming, going through predictable life cycles, and fizzling out on a time scale one would need a scientific calculator to even get a grip on...

Now, what does all this mean?

• "Creation" is an ongoing process, continuing to this day.

• Not significantly among the living creation as I stated above. And this was predicted by the Bible.
• If Creation is ongoing, then there was never a time when it was "finished."

• tv: If it was never "finished," then it was never "perfect."

  No fundamentally new things have been created in 2 million years. So fundamentally is is finished. But you are right it was never perfect in the sense of perfection in everyway. The Bible does not say the universe was created perfect in that sense. It was called very good by God not perfect. It was perfect in the sense that it was perfect for the purpose for which it was created, ie destroying evil forever. And humans were morally perfect, that is the main thrust of the atonement. We fell from moral perfection.

• tv: If it was never "perfect," then there was never any kind of fall from that nonexistent "perfection."

• See above about what very good meant.

• tv: As there was no "fall," there was no "Original Sin," which caused it.
  [*]Without a "fall," then Jesus' purpose on this Earth could not have been to "restore" Creation or any part of it to a "perfection" that never existed in the first place.
  [*]This would necessarily mean that "Jesus died for our (Original) sins" is nonsensical.

• No, there plainly was a fall and it can be seen in all of human history.

tv: I've heard it said (and I agree) that because "creation" is ongoing, its condition is not "fallen," but rather, incomplete. Jesus, therefore, is not the way to "reconcile" us with a God our mythical ancestors (Adam & Eve) sinned against, but to complete the work and bring creation to the perfect state of oneness with God that it never had before, but will someday... I can see that.

Thoughts?

See above. Creation is finished, that is why God stopped creating on the Seventh Day. And it was perfect for the purpose it was created for. So yes there was a fall from moral perfection by humans and subsequent separation from God that Christ came to reconcile.

 

[TLK Valentine]

• It was called very good by God not perfect. It was perfect in the sense that it was perfect for the purpose for which it was created, ie destroying evil forever. And humans were morally perfect, that is the main thrust of the atonement. We fell from moral perfection.

This doesn't make sense -- if sin was created in Heaven, why can't it be destroyed there?

What does this world have that Heaven lacks?

 

[Clare73]

I'm clearly not what anyone here would call a "Christian," but even if I was,
I could not in good conscience accept the idea of "Original Sin" or the need to atone for it.

Thoughts?

Pretty simple.

It raises the question of what forms your "conscience" as a "Christian," your personal opinion or the NT?

And, if you were a Christian, you would be a "Christian" who does not believe the NT in Romans 5:18 and Romans 3:25.