A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[EmSw]

I asked this:
"How many of the commandments? All of them? And how perfectly? And for how long? Throughout one's life? Or how many years?"

Actually, my words are a sincere desire to know exactly what is required, and it's quite clear that you don't even know.

If Jesus taught that keeping the Law results in eternal life, surely He would have specified how many, and how well, and for how long.

Otherwise, how would anyone know how to have eternal life?

It is these questions that beg answers of your theology.

Jesus DID say to "keep the Law to enter life". But it seems you've interpreted that to mean "receive eternal life". Yet without any Scriptural evidence for that. Which is why you cannot even answer these straightforward questions.

Paul had a very straightforward answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Why can't you answer my simple questions?

Of course, you must enter the gate in order to receive eternal life. Once again, you don't believe Jesus.

Matthew 7
13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

If you haven't entered the gate, you are one of those many who do not find life.

 

[GillDouglas]

How is it possible for all children to be saved ? What if a child dies who was, before the foundation of the world, dammed to eternal hell? It doesn't matter if they're children because they were never chosen.

I do not mean ALL the children or even ALL people for that matter. I refer to the ones who have no chance to hear the Gospel or have no opportunity to experience a situation where God uses external means to bring about Salvation. I believe that God has a unique plan for the unique individuals with unique circumstances.

 

[Felix.Gov]

I do not mean ALL the children or even ALL people for that matter. I refer to the ones who have no chance to hear the Gospel or have no opportunity to experience a situation where God uses external means to bring about Salvation. I believe that God has a unique plan for the unique individuals with unique circumstances.

 

[Felix.Gov]

I do not mean ALL the children or even ALL people for that matter. I refer to the ones who have no chance to hear the Gospel or have no opportunity to experience a situation where God uses external means to bring about Salvation. I believe that God has a unique plan for the unique individuals with unique circumstances.

But brother that view seems problematic for two reasons.

1. Theres no salvation apart from hearing the gospel. Rom 10
2. It doesn't matter if they don't hear the gospel( according to the reformed position) You're either elect or non elect. So just as a matter of internal consistency I'm pointing that out.

 

[GillDouglas]

But brother that view seems problematic for two reasons.

1. Theres no salvation apart from hearing the gospel. Rom 10
2. It doesn't matter if they don't hear the gospel( according to the reformed position) You're either elect or non elect. So just as a matter of internal consistency I'm pointing that out.

I can understand why you take issue because this concept doesn't fit in a nice and neat little package. But I am telling you that God can save whomever He wants.

Charles H. Spurgeon said "If any man be saved, he is saved by divine grace and by divine grace alone; the reason of his salvation is not to be found in him, but in God. We are not saved as the result of anything that we do or that we will, but we will and do as the result of God’s good pleasure and the work of His grace in our hearts. "

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Have you considered that this view of salvation removes God's SINGLE REQUIREMENT for saving a person? Believing in Christ."

And how do those I mentioned believe?

From their intellect, which is God-given.

Only by the work of the Holy Spirit of course. The same goes for those who are not like the mentioned.

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is it possible for all children to be saved ? What if a child dies who was, before the foundation of the world, dammed to eternal hell?

The fact is that Jesus Christ died for everyone. So, those who don't reach the development to know right from wrong, and understand their own sin, and what Jesus did are saved on the basis for dying for their sins.

It doesn't matter if they're children because they were never chosen.

God does not pick out from the human race who will believe, which is the foundation for your comment.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"How many of the commandments? All of them? And how perfectly? And for how long? Throughout one's life? Or how many years?"

Now I am going to give you the same questions.

Nope. Not until you answer mine, which are begged by your theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course, you must enter the gate in order to receive eternal life. Once again, you don't believe Jesus.

Since I quote what Jesus said, it is obvious that either:
1. your comprehension level of what I post cannot be grasped, or
2. you're just lying on purpose. Whatever.

 

[Felix.Gov]

I can understand why you take issue because this concept doesn't fit in a nice and neat little package. But I am telling you that God can save whomever He wants.

Charles H. Spurgeon said "If any man be saved, he is saved by divine grace and by divine grace alone; the reason of his salvation is not to be found in him, but in God. We are not saved as the result of anything that we do or that we will, but we will and do as the result of God’s good pleasure and the work of His grace in our hearts. "

Brother you did not address my two points . And quoting spurgeon doesn't carry any weight. We want the foundation of our beliefs to come from the word. (Btw I love sourgeon)

 

[Felix.Gov]

The fact is that Jesus Christ died for everyone. So, those who don't reach the development to know right from wrong, and understand their own sin, and what Jesus did are saved on the basis for dying for their sins.


God does not pick out from the human race who will believe, which is the foundation for your comment.

I'm not a Calvinist but I was asking from an internal perspective according to what they believe the statements made would be internally inconsistent.

 

[EmSw]

Since I quote what Jesus said, it is obvious that either:
1. your comprehension level of what I post cannot be grasped, or
2. you're just lying on purpose. Whatever.

You didn't quote, and won't quote the following:

Matthew 7
13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[GillDouglas]

Brother you did not address my two points . And quoting spurgeon doesn't carry any weight. We want the foundation of our beliefs to come from the word. (Btw I love sourgeon)

Ok, understandable. Though a much better theologian than I could ever be, Spurgeon probably won't convince you of my point regarding God's involvement in Salvation. Our faith is not why we receive grace, but it is because of the grace of God that we have faith.

The grace of God is sovereign. By that I mean that God has an absolute right to give that grace where He chooses and to withhold it when He pleases. He is not bound to give it to any man, much less to all men; if He chooses to give it to one man and not to another, His answer is, "Is thine eye evil because mine eye is good? Can I not do as I will with mine own? I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." (Matthew 20:15)

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you" (John 15:16)

 

[FreeGrace2]

You didn't quote, and won't quote the following:

Matthew 7
13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

No need to quote Matt 7:13, 14 because you just did.

Here are some quotes from Jesus Himself:
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 5

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. John 6

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11

I guess the only question left, since you won't answer my earlier ones, is this:

Do you believe this (what Jesus said in these verses)?

 

[EmSw]

No need to quote Matt 7:13, 14 because you just did.

Here are some quotes from Jesus Himself:
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 5

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. John 6

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11

I guess the only question left, since you won't answer my earlier ones, is this:

Do you believe this (what Jesus said in these verses)?

Yes, I probably believe them more than you. Only I believe everything He said, including, to enter life, keep the commandments, and enter through the narrow gate which leads to life.

 

[Felix.Gov]

Ok, understandable. Though a much better theologian than I could ever be, Spurgeon probably won't convince you of my point regarding God's involvement in Salvation. Our faith is not why we receive grace, but it is because of the grace of God that we have faith.

The grace of God is sovereign. By that I mean that God has an absolute right to give that grace where He chooses and to withhold it when He pleases. He is not bound to give it to any man, much less to all men; if He chooses to give it to one man and not to another, His answer is, "Is thine eye evil because mine eye is good? Can I not do as I will with mine own? I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." (Matthew 20:15)

Brother that's about reward in the kingdom of God. He reserves the right to reward how he sees fit. It says nothing about choosing some to eternal life and others to eternal damnation. I honestly think you're reading that into the text based on your systematic.

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)

Who says it's according to works ? I don't think any Protestant Christian believes in works righteousness.


"You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you" (John 15:16)

And this isn't about being chosen into eternal life either brother, no where does it say that. Secondly He's addressing the twelve. The past two chapters before he's telling them of things to come. This is before Jesus was to be betrayed and crucified. And then in John 17 He goes on to pray for the twelve

“"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

He's speaking specifically to the twelve. He didn't manifest The father to the whole world. He isn't speaking of the "elect" as you make it seem. It's abundantly clear that His choosing of them was to be His disciples. Just as He prayed all night before He "chose them".

 

[sdowney717]

And this isn't about being chosen into eternal life either brother, no where does it say that. Secondly He's addressing the twelve. The past two chapters before he's telling them of things to come. This is before Jesus was to be betrayed and crucified. And then in John 17 He goes on to pray for the twelve

“"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

He's speaking specifically to the twelve. He didn't manifest The father to the whole world. He isn't speaking of the "elect" as you make it seem. It's abundantly clear that His choosing of them was to be His disciples. Just as He prayed all night before He "chose them".

Scripture tells us 'little children' and infants are those in whom God has perfected praises.
Notice the wording 'little children' is always associated with knowing God and salvation, regardless of age.

Matthew 18:3
and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:13
[ Jesus Blesses Little Children ] Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Mark 9:37
“Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me.”

Mark 10:13
[ Jesus Blesses Little Children ] Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Luke 18:15
[ Jesus Blesses Little Children ] Then they also brought infants to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.

Luke 18:16
But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

John 13:33
Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come,’ so now I say to you.

Galatians 4:19
My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

1 John 2:12
[ Their Spiritual State ] I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.

1 John 2:13
I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, Because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, Because you have known the Father.

1 John 2:18
[ Deceptions of the Last Hour ] Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

1 John 2:28
[ The Children of God ] And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

1 John 4:4
You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[sdowney717]

Don't be like the chief priests and scribes whom Christ had to constantly rebuke and correct.

Matthew 21:15-17New King James Version (NKJV)
15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant 16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?”

And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read,

‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise’?”

17 Then He left them and went out of the city to Bethany, and He lodged there.

 

[sdowney717]

Read psalm 8 which is from where Christ was quoting to understand the reference has to do with saved man's standing relationship with God to which Christ was referring when he spoke of 'little children' and 'nursing infants', so this has to do with their salvation and not their damnation.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 8 - New King James Version
If you notice, v2, God perfects praises in the mouths of even nursing infants
to silence His enemies and critics, that their mouths may be stopped, the enemies of God.


Psalm 8New King James Version (NKJV)
The Glory of the Lord in Creation
To the Chief Musician. On the instrument of Gath. A Psalm of David.
8 O Lord, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth,
Who have set Your glory above the heavens!

2 Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have ordained strength,
Because of Your enemies,
That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.

3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.

6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen—
Even the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the air,
And the fish of the sea
That pass through the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth!

 

[Felix.Gov]

Brother with all due respect what do these verses about "little children" prove ? It certainly didn't address anything I was saying in the quote that you have of me.