A Radical Prescription

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Chesterton

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No, science is never prescriptive. This is what people mean when they say, "Science is descriptive, not prescriptive." A trivial observation that you seem unable to grasp.
I grasp what they mean well enough to recognize that it's only true when it's true, otherwise it's not true, which means it's not really a truth.
How about that. Depending on the questions asked, sometimes people provide facts, sometimes they offer opinions. What an earthshaking observation.
If it's all a matter of offering opinion, why are these 500 scientists calling for people to wreak havoc in decent society? Why do some scientists think one should be charged with murder for disagreeing about the facts? Why's that uppity little brat Greta scowling at me? You need to convince those folks, not me, that science is merely descriptive.
 
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Chesterton

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You insisted I was mistaken in my understanding of the your clearly indicated position. That means it is nowhere near as clear as you think or claim. So cut the trolling, provocative, goading nonsense and state - without equivocation - what your position is.
You're the one who said my position was very clear, and denounced my position, and then asked me what my position was. Very strange.
Be assured if I intended to insult you, you would be in no doubt that you had been insulted. Let me clarify my observation: your behaviour is rude and discourteous. This is a discussion forum, not a "let me obfuscate, provoke, prevaricate and equivocate forum", all practices in which you seem to enjoy indulging.
At this point I should make you aware of Chesterton's Law, which recognizes the direct correlation between how much you foolishly feed a troll, and how much more insatiable the troll's appetite becomes.

Anyway, I have no position on global warmth. I can't predict the future and neither can anyone else. But even if I did agree with AGW, I would still condemn these scientists' dangerous and irresponsible action.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I grasp what they mean well enough to recognize that it's only true when it's true, otherwise it's not true, which means it's not really a truth.

No, from post #1 on, you have appeared confused about what the phrase even means.

Why's that uppity little brat Greta scowling at me?

She is calling on political leaders for political action.
 
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Chesterton

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No, from post #1 on, you have appeared confused about what the phrase even means.
I think we both know what it means. You just mistakenly want to think it's true.
She is calling on political leaders for political action.
Just offering her opinion?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Just offering her opinion?

As opposed to what? Performing a scientific experiment? Doing science? Doing what science prescribes her to do? Certainly none of those things.
 
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The_Barmecide

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At this point I should make you aware of Chesterton's Law,

Good luck with the "self-branding"! I'm sure that'll work out for you.

Anyway, I have no position on global warmth. I can't predict the future and neither can anyone else.

This is a cop-out. Of COURSE we can make predictions on the future! It's kind of one of the advantages science gives you! If you know what the independent variables are and you have a half-way decent fit to the model you can predict with varying levels of accuracy a whole host of things!
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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No, science is never prescriptive. This is what people mean when they say, "Science is descriptive, not prescriptive." A trivial observation that you seem unable to grasp.

How about that. Depending on the questions asked, sometimes people provide facts, sometimes they offer opinions. What an earthshaking observation.

Q: Is the climate, in general warming?
A: Yes, that is a scientific fact.
Q: Are humans responsible?
A: Yes, that's established beyond any reasonable doubt at this point.
Q: What should we do?
A: Well, scientifically speaking... if we don't do anything, things will be bad. If we do something, the problem can be mitigated.
Q: STOP WAFFLING! What should we do?
A: Well, on the whole, I think we should do something. This is not a scientific result. Science does not provide values. But I, as a human being, can differentiate between a bad outcome and a not so bad outcome. I prefer the not so bad outcome.
Precisely. Science can inform our choices by telling us what may be achievable, how we might achieve it, and what the consequences might be. It can't tell us whether we should choose a particular option until we have chosen a particular goal and specified the acceptable consequences.
 
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Chesterton

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Doing what science prescribes her to do?
Although she comes across with the fervor of a religious moralist, she herself certainly claims she's doing what science prescribes her to do. So do you approve of the actions of those equally zealous 400 scientists?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Although she comes across with the fervor of a religious moralist, she herself certainly claims she's doing what science prescribes her to do.

Nope.

For more than 30 years the science has been crystal clear. [There are scientific certainties about climate change and humanity's part in it.] How dare you continue to look away, and come here saying that you're doing enough when the politics and solutions needed are still nowhere in sight.

You say you hear us and that you understand the urgency. But no matter how sad and angry I am, I do not want to believe that. Because if you really understood the situation and still kept on failing to act, then you would be evil. And that I refuse to believe.

The popular idea of cutting our emissions in half in 10 years only gives us a 50% chance of staying below 1.5 degrees (Celsius) and the risk of setting off irreversible chain reactions beyond human control. ['Science' says that if we do this, this is the result. One way of quantifying the 'urgency' she speaks of.]

Fifty percent may be acceptable to you. But those numbers do not include tipping points, most feedback loops, additional warming hidden by toxic air pollution or the aspects of equity and climate justice. They also rely on my generation sucking hundreds of billions of tons of your CO2 out of the air with technologies that barely exist. [She expresses an opinion that it's not fair that her generation has to ride electric scooters, so I can drive my sportscar. This was not discovered with a scientific fairometer.]

So a 50% risk is simply not acceptable to us – we who have to live with the consequences. [Greta's opinion is that that first result does not do enough.]

To have a 67% chance of staying below a 1.5 degrees global temperature rise – the best odds given by the (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) – the world had 420 gigatons of CO2 left to emit back on Jan. 1, 2018. Today that figure is already down to less than 350 gigatons. ['Science' says that if we do a different thing, this is the different result.]

How dare you pretend that this can be solved with just "business as usual" and some technical solutions? With today's emissions levels, that remaining CO2 budget will be entirely gone within less than eight and a half years.

There will not be any solutions or plans presented in line with these figures here today, because these numbers are too uncomfortable and you are still not mature enough to tell it like it is. [Greta's comment is a little ambiguous, but I think it's fair to say that she doesn't think the leaders will present a plan adhering to either scientific scenario.]

You are failing us. But the young people are starting to understand your betrayal. The eyes of all future generations are upon you. And if you choose to fail us, I say: We will never forgive you.

---

Science does not prescribe either of those two particular scenarios she mentions. Or to advocate on behalf of one rather than another. Nor does it even prescribe 1.5 degrees as a goal to work toward. Science has produced many different climate scenarios based on everything from 'business as usual' to 'confiscating personal cars'. Science doesn't prescribe any of them. Greta is expressing her opinion that it is shameful that, largely speaking, the world has adopted a plan awfully close to 'business as usual'.
 
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Chesterton

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Nope.

For more than 30 years the science has been crystal clear. [There are scientific certainties about climate change and humanity's part in it.] How dare you continue to look away, and come here saying that you're doing enough when the politics and solutions needed are still nowhere in sight.

You say you hear us and that you understand the urgency. But no matter how sad and angry I am, I do not want to believe that. Because if you really understood the situation and still kept on failing to act, then you would be evil. And that I refuse to believe.

The popular idea of cutting our emissions in half in 10 years only gives us a 50% chance of staying below 1.5 degrees (Celsius) and the risk of setting off irreversible chain reactions beyond human control. ['Science' says that if we do this, this is the result. One way of quantifying the 'urgency' she speaks of.]

Fifty percent may be acceptable to you. But those numbers do not include tipping points, most feedback loops, additional warming hidden by toxic air pollution or the aspects of equity and climate justice. They also rely on my generation sucking hundreds of billions of tons of your CO2 out of the air with technologies that barely exist. [She expresses an opinion that it's not fair that her generation has to ride electric scooters, so I can drive my sportscar. This was not discovered with a scientific fairometer.]

So a 50% risk is simply not acceptable to us – we who have to live with the consequences. [Greta's opinion is that that first result does not do enough.]

To have a 67% chance of staying below a 1.5 degrees global temperature rise – the best odds given by the (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) – the world had 420 gigatons of CO2 left to emit back on Jan. 1, 2018. Today that figure is already down to less than 350 gigatons. ['Science' says that if we do a different thing, this is the different result.]

How dare you pretend that this can be solved with just "business as usual" and some technical solutions? With today's emissions levels, that remaining CO2 budget will be entirely gone within less than eight and a half years.

There will not be any solutions or plans presented in line with these figures here today, because these numbers are too uncomfortable and you are still not mature enough to tell it like it is. [Greta's comment is a little ambiguous, but I think it's fair to say that she doesn't think the leaders will present a plan adhering to either scientific scenario.]

You are failing us. But the young people are starting to understand your betrayal. The eyes of all future generations are upon you. And if you choose to fail us, I say: We will never forgive you.

---

Science does not prescribe either of those two particular scenarios she mentions. Or to advocate on behalf of one rather than another. Nor does it even prescribe 1.5 degrees as a goal to work toward. Science has produced many different climate scenarios based on everything from 'business as usual' to 'confiscating personal cars'. Science doesn't prescribe any of them. Greta is expressing her opinion that it is shameful that, largely speaking, the world has adopted a plan awfully close to 'business as usual'.
Why'd you use Greta to evade answering my question? Hasn't that poor thing been used enough?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Why'd you use Greta to evade answering my question?

You made a claim about her. It was false.

As for your question, I neither approve nor disapprove of the statement, but frankly I do not support Extinction Rebellion, which seems to be a particular focus of the statement.
 
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eclipsenow

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I've never understood these sorts of claims. There is no logic behind the idea that scientists had to invent a bunch of fake science over the course of decades for the purpose of getting paid when they could, y'know, do real science and achieve the same.
Absolutely! I particularly love how quaint this conspiracy theory claim is. If the climatologist earns say $70,000 a year and is motivated to 'lie' to support his or her salary, then what about the oil or coal CEO that earns that in a DAY? How motivated are they to fund projects that tell half-truths and outright lies? Oh wait, we KNOW how motivated they are.
 
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eclipsenow

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My bolding....
Wow.....I am at a loss at how to even respond to such a belief. :swoon: I guess the best I can do is say you are entitled to your beliefs but not entitled to force them upon me or anyone else no matter how right you may believe you are.
Well, soon this won't be about forcing beliefs but you paying more and more for a loaf of bread, for accommodation, for the Climate Refugee Housing bill AO9B, for the Essential Cities program building massive seawalls against the rising seas, for New Food tech programs that are trying to feed the world as it approaches 10 billion but the crops have dropped 25% on today's levels and America's wheat and corn belts are permanent dustbowls... You can try telling the store owner you don't "believe" a mere loaf of bread should be $8, but I doubt he'll give it to you any cheaper as all this hits.

Hopefully, if those of us who respect science get our way, you will be prevented from experiencing a lot of the above because we'll win government and legislate my signature as the answer! After all, that's what Dr James Hansen says we should do.
 
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