A question to the Christian Trump supporters.

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grasping the after wind

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The more I've thought about it, the more I think this is false, and a bad attempt at "whataboutism."

I'm sure many Republicans will disagree, but I believe Pres. Obama was a man of faith. I do think he tended to be a more private man, so wasn't as open about his beliefs and some Christians would like; not to mention being a Democrat he didn't wish to make them a huge issue.

I believe both Pres. Bush's were strong Christians. You saw Pres. G. W. Bush openly talk about his faith and beliefs, about praying when he had important decisions, while governing. Pres. G. H. W. Bush did not seem to openly talk about his faith (in that way he was more like Pres. Obama) but, particularly in the years since his Presidency ended, he was known to be a man of faith and active in his church.

That isn't to say that these men were perfect, that they didn't make mistakes. Nor does it mean that all Christians must agree with those things these former Presidents believed were right. I do believe, at least by and large, they largely attempted to govern according to their beliefs; just as I have friends who I disagree with politically but can see they are sincere people who try to do right.

Unfortunately, I think too many of us can't get past the politics, not to mention the tendency to see the worst in people and ascribe nefarious motives to those things we disagree with (particularly with political operatives pushing us to see things through those lenses).

Do you wish to move the goal posts?
The question was

Put simply, what qualities of Christ do you see in Trump?

Nothing about what perception one has of what other politicians might believe or think but what specific tangible qualities do you see in Trump that reflect those of Christ. In other words what does Trump do that one can see as being a quality of Christ. I see no more Christ like qualities in Trump than I see from other politicians..
 
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wing2000

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Do you wish to move the goal posts?
The question was
Put simply, what qualities of Christ do you see in Trump?

Nothing about what perception one has of what other politicians might believe or think but what specific tangible qualities do you see in Trump that reflect those of Christ. In other words what does Trump do that one can see as being a quality of Christ. I see no more Christ like qualities in Trump than I see from other politicians..

That's twice you failed to answer the question asked.
 
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A2597

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I asked the question be cause many christian friends of mine consider Trump a Christian.
If Trump is a Christian, he should be in the process of sanctification and becoming more Christ like.

No,you did not answer the question because you didnt list a single quality of Trump that resembles Christ.

Out of 8 pages, only 2-3 people have actually answered the question.
 
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Albion

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I asked the question be cause many christian friends of mine consider Trump a Christian.
If Trump is a Christian, he should be in the process of sanctification and becoming more Christ like.

No,you did not answer the question because you didnt list a single quality of Trump that resembles Christ.

Out of 8 pages, only 2-3 people have actually answered the question.
They must dislike "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" kinds of questions.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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They must dislike "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" kinds of questions.
Not grammatically parallel at all. A parallel "trick question" might be "When did Trump stop being a bad person?" which of course assumes without proof that Trump used to be a bad person. But that wasn't the way the question was worded. The exact wording of the question was, "What qualities of Christ do you see in Trump?" The question is, on the face of it, a fair question, and the thoughtful answers have tended to be "It's not his Christ-like qualities that we are concerned with. It is his execution of policies that I, as a Christian, believe are closer to my personal values." That is a fair answer to a fair question, whether or not another person agrees with the answer or likes the question.
 
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Palmfever

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It is an interesting question but my focus is more on Trump's policy preferences rather than Trump himself. Supports Israel, supports conservative judges, supports the 2nd amendment, identifies and tries to reduce trade inequities, handles foreign policy better by not embracing globalism first. The jury is still out on his COVID policies, but his initial reaction was slow, touting Hydroxychloroquine might be in error and taking a stance that we should not shut down no matter what seems arrogant. Trump's biggest bust though has been his disregard for sound fiscal policy. Democrats though would be worse in this area, so we have to live with that.
I agree with you with one stipulation. The "Experts" were all over the place. We still see conflicting information. Hydroxychloroquine was touted by some. It is easy to second guess, my opinion however is that no one would have done any better given the unpreparedness of the world as a whole, not just the US.
 
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Albion

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It is easy to second guess, my opinion however is that no one would have done any better given the unpreparedness of the world as a whole, not just the US.
None of the headstrong governors who were issuing orders left and right did any better, that's for sure. Their record during this crisis has been markedly worse than the President's.
 
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jgarden

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What qualities of Christ do we see in any of these politicians? That's the question that needs to be asked and answered first.
With all due respect, Trump is in a league of his own and white conservative Christians have mortgaged the credibility of their faith in the eyes of the world on the premise that he will appoint enough right-wing Supreme Court Justices to overturn Roe v Wade!

The reality is that this train has already left the station decades ago and America's young women will never consent to allow a group of elderly, white males in Washington who know nutting of their personal circumstances make those decision for them!

I sincerely doubt that even Republicans have the stomach to fill America's prisons with millions of young women should they defy the law and choose to have an abortion!
 
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SimplyMe

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Do you wish to move the goal posts?
The question was

Except I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to your comment. In fact, to go back to the OP -- I'm not one that is supposed to answer that question, as I've never been a Trump supporter. Though, if you want to nitpick, you didn't answer the OPs question, either.

Nothing about what perception one has of what other politicians might believe or think but what specific tangible qualities do you see in Trump that reflect those of Christ. In other words what does Trump do that one can see as being a quality of Christ. I see no more Christ like qualities in Trump than I see from other politicians..

But that is just it, I have trouble seeing much of any Christ-like virtues in Trump. I don't see love of enemies, turning the other cheek, humility, repentance, etc. Instead, I see him as someone who attacks anyone that criticizes him, or that he even thing may criticize him. He doesn't appear to take responsibility when things don't go as he planned, or even acknowledge that he did anything incorrectly. Also, tied into that, his near constant mis-statements (to be generous), where many accuse him of lying, and others claim he just doesn't see the world the way it is, rather he sees the world according to his own ego (largest crowd in inaugural history).

Now I have heard of him praying, but only at events like the National Prayer Breakfast, where it appears his "prayer" was written for him by a staff writer. Perhaps I'm wrong, I obviously have no insight into his everyday life, but at the same time, the attributes listed above (particular the vanity appears Trump has) just doesn't make it seem like he is a person that would go to his knees and ask for help and admit he doesn't know. Remember, this is the man who claimed he knows more about running the military and military actions that his generals do.

It's also worth noting that Evangelical Leaders, during the lead up to the 2016 election, stated Trump was a fledgling Christian and so we shouldn't judge him to harshly. Again, I could be wrong, but I haven't seen much difference from 2015 (where allegedly, if he was a fledgling Christian in 2016, he likely wasn't really Christian at all) and Trump today.

Again, I can see much different attitudes in some other Christians. Pres. Obama -- despite being private about his religion -- was known to pray while President and admitting his relationship with God became closer during his Presidency, as he frequently felt the need for help that no man could give. This article recounts Pres. Obama's remarks during a National Prayer Breakfast. Sure, you could say that it was written by a speechwriter, but it has the details and shows a humility that makes it feel genuine. By contrast, the remarks and prayers I've seen by Trump at these events seem to be more canned, the cliche'd "pray for the Middle East" type of statements, as well as talking how great he and other Republicans are. Compare what Trump said in a recent prayer breakfast to Obama's comments -- which seem more Christian; it seems almost 180 degrees different. Do the same thing with both Bush Presidents, again, you'll find their tone and remarks much more like Obama's than Trumps -- and their actions while they were in office.

So, no, I don't see how Trump is like every other President.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Exactly.

Some people are highly authoritarian and insecure and need that sort of thing. The problem is, many of the rest of us don't. We don't need the moral equivalent of training wheels- we know what is best for us based on our lived experience. Training wheels might be comforting for some, but they ultimately limit our freedom.

If you supported the lockdowns, don’t think for a second that you get to talk like that without being laughed at.^_^
 
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Halbhh

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If people were to hold their politicians to a Christlike standard they would not be able to participate in politics at all.
Consider --

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want....

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

(Galatians ch 5)

Christ said that those who are His will bear fruit (John chapter 15), and that a good tree bears good fruit, but that a bad tree bears bad fruits. (Matthew ch 7)


Notice that Trump says he is "Christian".... While other presidents like Carter and Bush were but did not trumpet it as much.

Look at what a person does, not at only what they say....

Which person bear good fruits -- "...peace, forbearance...kindness...gentleness, self-control"....

President Jimmy Carter has born those good fruits....

So, can I find a politician that actually follows Christ? Answer: sometimes.

I look for love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.
 
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FireDragon76

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If you supported the lockdowns, don’t think for a second that you get to talk like that without being laughed at.^_^

The difference is that the lockdowns were based on science, not religion. Religion, unlike science, doesn't have to demonstrate actual evidence for its claims.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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The difference is that the lockdowns were based on science, not religion. Religion, unlike science, doesn't have to demonstrate actual evidence for its claims.

Except there's little empirical evidence that the lockdowns were effective. Hence they were not bases on science. The fact that their proponents tried to shame anti-lockdown protestors and even people who simply showed up to church, yet had no criticism about violations of social distancing for protests in the aftermath of George Floyd's death is proof enough of that. They lockdowns were never anything but purely political, which also explains the arbitrary manner in which they were implemented.
 
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Palmfever

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With all due respect, Trump is in a league of his own and white conservative Christians have mortgaged the credibility of their faith in the eyes of the world on the premise that he will appoint enough right-wing Supreme Court Justices to overturn Roe v Wade!

The reality is that this train has already left the station decades ago and America's young women will never consent to allow a group of elderly, white males in Washington who know nutting of their personal circumstances make those decision for them!

I sincerely doubt that even Republicans have the stomach to fill America's prisons with millions of young women should they defy the law and choose to have an abortion!
Well, the ones who don’t know where babies come from, perhaps should be let in on the secret. Poor things.
 
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SimplyMe

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Except there's little empirical evidence that the lockdowns were effective. Hence they were not bases on science.

I can't agree with this. First, the lockdowns were based on science -- though admittedly (even by those doctors making the decisions) there was a lot they didn't know. A lot was based on the idea that it had spread factor of 2 (that each infected person was likely to infect 2 others) and the ability of the virus to overwhelm healthcare services, as it had in China and Italy. Further, the lockdowns weren't to completely stop the spread, they were supposed to be meant to keep the spread slow enough that doctors could manage those that ended up with bad cases.

As for "effectiveness," there is little question that the lockdown slowed the disease. The lockdown was further considered effective because of the lack of ability we had to protect our healthcare workers -- we did not have enough protective equipment such as masks, face guards; not to mention things like ventilators for patients (even if it now appears ventilators should not have been used in many cases).

Worse, we still have some of the same questions -- we still don't really understand how the disease spreads; though it does appear we are getting closer. We still don't have a "treatment protocol" perfected for those that are infected by the virus.

I would disagree that there is little evidence the lockdown was effective, I think the issue is -- knowing what we know now -- is was the lockdown overkill? For example, in hindsight, I think in most areas there was little reason to completely stop all non-emergency hospital treatments. Instead, it seems like some that might be more time consuming (in terms of time in the hospital) should have been stopped, many same day and even two or three days (total in hospital) procedures should have been allowed -- with the idea that, should events warrant, those could be cancelled with almost no notice. But, again, the idea is we were trying to prevent "Italy" -- or even a situation like New York. Then again, I'm not an expert and won't claim to know all of what went into their decisions.

The fact that their proponents tried to shame anti-lockdown protestors and even people who simply showed up to church, yet had no criticism about violations of social distancing for protests in the aftermath of George Floyd's death is proof enough of that.

And I think that would be something to bring up with the vocal minority who did those types of things. At the same time, I think the anti-lockdown protesters numbed us to the point that we didn't care when other protesters weren't properly social distancing.

They lockdowns were never anything but purely political, which also explains the arbitrary manner in which they were implemented.

The odd thing is, this only seems to be true in the US. In most of the rest of the world, lockdowns weren't political -- they recognized it as the best way to stop out of control spread of the virus, to keep it from overwhelming their medical facilities and personnel. It is even odder that even the most red states ordered lockdowns -- in fact, the "severity" of the lockdowns seem at least as related to the severity of the virus in those states (NY, Michigan, Washington all had serious outbreaks; the states where Trump and Republicans had issues with the lockdowns), as it does to the political party of the governor.

If you want to argue that not all states needed to shut down, then you should likely point to the Republican states of Oklahoma, Nebraska, North and South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, etc.

Yes, you can point to Sweden; but again, they felt -- based on the unique things about their country, such as their medical capacity -- that strong social distancing measures would be enough (and would be followed well enough to their citizens) that they could just "outlaw" groups and require distancing and masks. If nothing else, I think the "political" aspect of the virus in this country -- particularly with some of the things that have occurred (such as various "lockdown parties") -- that people would not have followed social distancing rules and limits on groups without the lockdown.

Despite the spin, the lockdowns have been bipartisan. Again, hindsight may show a better picture about what we should have done but we know much more than we did three months ago.
 
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FireDragon76

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Except there's little empirical evidence that the lockdowns were effective.

No evidence? That's far from the truth, and amounts to disinformation:

Yes, staying at home works: debunking the biggest US coronavirus myths

Hence they were not bases on science.

On the contrary, they were based on the best science at the time.

And stop changing the subject, you understood exactly what I meant. You have no right to enforce your religious values upon others who do not share your belief in your religion's principles or doctrines, which I, and many Americans, do not.
 
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Allandavid

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Except there's little empirical evidence that the lockdowns were effective. Hence they were not bases on science. The fact that their proponents tried to shame anti-lockdown protestors and even people who simply showed up to church, yet had no criticism about violations of social distancing for protests in the aftermath of George Floyd's death is proof enough of that. They lockdowns were never anything but purely political, which also explains the arbitrary manner in which they were implemented.

You are so wrong there...
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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SimplyMe said:
Yes, you can point to Sweden; but again, they felt -- based on the unique things about their country, such as their medical capacity -- that strong social distancing measures would be enough (and would be followed well enough to their citizens) that they could just "outlaw" groups and require distancing and masks. If nothing else, I think the "political" aspect of the virus in this country -- particularly with some of the things that have occurred (such as various "lockdown parties") -- that people would not have followed social distancing rules and limits on groups without the lockdown.

Belarus imposed essentially no socially distancing measures at all, and its death rate is far below that of any Western country.

And today, WHO let the truth slip:

Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is ‘very rare,’ WHO says

Government responses should focus on detecting and isolating infected people with symptoms, and tracking anyone who might have come into contact with them, Van Kerkhove said. She acknowledged that some studies have indicated asymptomatic or presymptomatic spread in nursing homes and in household settings.

Which, of course, explains why the lockdowns are ineffective; the virus is spread mostly between people who live together.

“What we really want to be focused on is following the symptomatic cases,” Van Kerkhove said. “If we actually followed all of the symptomatic cases, isolated those cases, followed the contacts and quarantined those contacts, we would drastically reduce” the outbreak.

And stop changing the subject, you understood exactly what I meant. You have no right to enforce your religious values upon others who do not share your belief in your religion's principles or doctrines, which I, and many Americans, do not.

It's the same subject. If you condone depriving tens of millions of Americans of the ability to make a living - one of the worst civil liberties violations in US history - you can't expect to be taken seriously when you whine about other people forcing their beliefs on you.
 
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