A question from a Protestant about salvation

[Rhamiel]

A question for you and anyone else that cares to answer: The one thing that immediately strikes me as troubling, is that we seem to need to refer to being "Catholic" or "Protestant" or "Evangelical" or etc. When do we get back to being "Christian"? Or do we?

when the apostle John was still alive we had Gnostics who claimed to be Christians
Latter we had iconoclasts who hated holy images and they claimed to be Christians.
Latter on we had Arians who said our Lord Jesus Christ was a created being but yet they claimed to be Christians.

it is sad that we can not simply call ourselves Christians but as false religions still claim that title for themselves the True Church which preaches the saving faith will still have to use specific names to differentiate herself from heretics who preach spiritual death

 

[GDL]

Of course, but if I die today I'm either saved or not, it's not a process in that way. The "process" would be to stay saved, wouldn't it? I think process is the wrong word, if there isn't something I'm missing. Process sounds like you can be more and more saved.

Salvation in our Text is clearly a process of growth in Faith, obedience, love, infancy to maturity, etc. It's thus a process of overcoming sin to greater & greater degrees and thus a growth in righteousness - living righteously.

Even in our English translations we find the language of saved in the past tense, being saved in the present and continuous tense, will be saved in the future tense. This language is indicative of the process of salvation.

If you were to die today and were saved some time in the past, I think the question is whether or not you were abiding in Christ as commanded and thus in the process of being saved looking to the future when you would be saved. If you read the articles Michie linked, this is pretty much the concept being presented there. The point being, you were saved, living in the process of salvation (growth from infancy to maturity and beyond), and you had not lost your salvation by walking away from and abandoning it in sin, so still saved at death - endured to the (your) end here - something else one of the articles touches on.

FWIW, I was in the Free Grace camp that one of the articles touches on. I saw many things that did not make sense compared with my reading of the Text. I went to seminary mainly to get trained in exegesis in the original languages. After moving away and doing my own studies and translating, for many years, I find very little, if anything, in the linked articles that I would disagree with re: Biblical Salvation.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Of course, but if I die today I'm either saved or not, it's not a process in that way. The "process" would be to stay saved, wouldn't it? I think process is the wrong word, if there isn't something I'm missing. Process sounds like you can be more and more saved.

You are right. At any given moment you are saved or else you are not saved. It's 'pass/fail'. But with any test you might think you did differently than you actually did. I thought I passed the Multivariable Calculus test but I didn't.

The 'process' part is sanctification. Don't get sucked in to the Protestant/Catholic language difference over the meaning of sanctification though. Sanctification goes in fits and starts and even can regress a bit. It goes on your whole life, and then you die. Since no unholy thing can enter heaven, it is possible that the uncompleted sanctification can be finished after we die but before we enter heaven.

But in addition to the sanctification thing we do believe, and we see it happening to people, that we can fall into sin or fall into disbelief. We may have been saved last week but this week we are on hell's expressway. Or, on the other hand, we may be saved today but next month we are going to fall for that extramarital affair and blow God off entirely. The once-saved-always-saved folks have the quick answer that that person was never really saved. We say they were but now they aren't. God continues to draw them, but they chose otherwise. Maybe next year their hearts will soften again.

Do you love the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit? Do you love the brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you seek to do right by all people? Have you repented all of your serious sins? Do you pray? Do you believe what Christians believe?Have you been baptized? Far from me to infallibly pontificate anything, but my guess is you can say you're saved. What about next month though? It's hard to know, even if our intentions are good at the moment.

So if salvation sounds like a process, at least in some descriptions, it's not really. It's being in the habit of being in God's grace, to where we don't want to be anywhere else. We can be confident in God's enduring love for us and less confident in ourselves but relaxed about it and not losing any sleep about having committed some 'unpardonable sin'. That is usually a Protestant who fears that.

 

[GDL]

when the apostle John was still alive we had Gnostics who claimed to be Christians
Latter we had iconoclasts who hated holy images and they claimed to be Christians.
Latter on we had Arians who said our Lord Jesus Christ was a created being but yet they claimed to be Christians.

it is sad that we can not simply call ourselves Christians but as false religions still claim that title for themselves the True Church which preaches the saving faith will still have to use specific names to differentiate herself from heretics who preach spiritual death

I guess one of the issues with this for me is the fact that there are certainly those who call themselves Catholic or Protestant or Evangelical or... that are not. There are weeds among the wheat in every group, which we were told in Scripture there would be. Almost every word, such as God, Christ, Church, love, and so on, has been hijacked and perverted. We still use them and explain how we do, Biblically.

 

[GDL]

The once-saved-always-saved folks have the quick answer that that person was never really saved.

Some of them have this answer. Some say they're saved any way.

 

[GDL]

So if salvation sounds like a process, at least in some descriptions, it's not really.

I clearly see the process in salvation. There is commanded and identifiable growth from infancy to maturity and more upward pursuit thereafter. Since it seems you are explaining it in another sense, maybe it's safe to say, On the one hand salvation is a process, and on the other hand it is _______.

Sanctification is a process of spiritual growth. Growth is a process, is it not?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I guess one of the issues with this for me is the fact that there are certainly those who call themselves Catholic or Protestant or Evangelical or... that are not. There are weeds among the wheat in every group, which we were told in Scripture there would be. Almost every word, such as God, Christ, Church, love, and so on, has been hijacked and perverted. We still use them and explain how we do, Biblically.

Lots of wheat among the tares. The amazing thing is that the Church has not collapsed due to all of the pretenders. That, I think, is a real miracle.

 

[GDL]

Lots of wheat among the tares. The amazing thing is that the Church has not collapsed due to all of the pretenders. That, I think, is a real miracle.

His Church cannot fail. He's assured us of this. So, yes, it is a miracle.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Some of them have this answer. Some say they're saved any way.

And I just don't see how a guy can say with a straight face that they are forever saved while the Lord returns to find him in flagrante delicto with his pants off with another guy. Something doesn't add about that.

I think the dogma of once-saved-always-saved is a dangerous one mostly because it gives a false expectation to people who should be spending their time getting right with God instead of sinning up a rampage and expecting it will all be perfectly OK.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I clearly see the process in salvation. There is commanded and identifiable growth from infancy to maturity and more upward pursuit thereafter. Since it seems you are explaining it in another sense, maybe it's safe to say, On the one hand salvation is a process, and on the other hand it is _______.

Sanctification is a process of spiritual growth. Growth is a process, is it not?

We must distinguish salvation and sanctification. I can't go into it now, but salvation is a 'yes' or 'no' thing at any given moment. There is often a long lead-up to being saved, but it's usually somewhat identifiable. And so it's repudiation can often be very identifiable. And confessable. Sanctification is a life-long process, sometimes done with lots of kicking and screaming. I didn't do it justice and I will try to revisit it.

 

[GDL]

We must distinguish salvation and sanctification. I can't go into it now, but salvation is a 'yes' or 'no' thing at any given moment. There is often a long lead-up to being saved, but it's usually somewhat identifiable. And so it's repudiation can often be very identifiable. And confessable. Sanctification is a life-long process, sometimes done with lots of kicking and screaming. I didn't do it justice and I will try to revisit it.

I likely will have heard where you may go with this. No rush.

Our Text says when we were initially saved, we were also sanctified. Then there is the process of being saved, which is also the process of sanctification - life-long as you say.

Mainly in Protestant teaching I see salvation specified as Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. I have come to not care for this presentation, because Justification is not spoken of in our Text solely as our first being saved - becoming Christian - and sanctification, as mentioned above, is not spoken of solely in regards to our being saved - being sanctified as Christians.

It's all salvation. The second I start referencing Scripture like Philippians 2:12-13 to many non-Catholics - Scripture that clearly commands us to work to accomplish (typically "work out") our salvation with fear & trembling while God is working in us to energize us to desire & do what pleases Him, I get charged with "works salvation." It seems some seek to try to find out if I'm Catholic. One of the linked articles Michie posted speaks of this verse rightly.

I have seen too many times how the Justification, Sanctification, Glorification labeling mainly exists to keep from identifying Sanctification as also being Salvation and to distance us from the discussion of working with God under His grace to accomplish what He has provided - Salvation.

 

[zoidar]

If you die in a state of grace you are saved. Even if there is a pit stop to purgatory.

You are right. At any given moment you are saved or else you are not saved. It's 'pass/fail'. But with any test you might think you did differently than you actually did. I thought I passed the Multivariable Calculus test but I didn't.

The 'process' part is sanctification. Don't get sucked in to the Protestant/Catholic language difference over the meaning of sanctification though. Sanctification goes in fits and starts and even can regress a bit. It goes on your whole life, and then you die. Since no unholy thing can enter heaven, it is possible that the uncompleted sanctification can be finished after we die but before we enter heaven.

But in addition to the sanctification thing we do believe, and we see it happening to people, that we can fall into sin or fall into disbelief. We may have been saved last week but this week we are on hell's expressway. Or, on the other hand, we may be saved today but next month we are going to fall for that extramarital affair and blow God off entirely. The once-saved-always-saved folks have the quick answer that that person was never really saved. We say they were but now they aren't. God continues to draw them, but they chose otherwise. Maybe next year their hearts will soften again.

Do you love the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit? Do you love the brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you seek to do right by all people? Have you repented all of your serious sins? Do you pray? Do you believe what Christians believe?Have you been baptized? Far from me to infallibly pontificate anything, but my guess is you can say you're saved. What about next month though? It's hard to know, even if our intentions are good at the moment.

So if salvation sounds like a process, at least in some descriptions, it's not really. It's being in the habit of being in God's grace, to where we don't want to be anywhere else. We can be confident in God's enduring love for us and less confident in ourselves but relaxed about it and not losing any sleep about having committed some 'unpardonable sin'. That is usually a Protestant who fears that.

As you Chevy describe being in God's grace sounds to me like the same thing as being saved. Sounds more like just difference in "language". Being saved means being in God's grace. Then of course we can discuss exactly how faith/works fit together, but that is another matter.

One more thing. The Bible talks about being saved not only after this life, but also being saved right now. I don't understand why Catholics don't use the expression "being saved" since it's in the Bible, and instead use "being in God's grace".

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
— 2 Timothy 1:8-9

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
— Ephesians 2:4-

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
— Titus 3:5

 

[Michie]

There is a Protestant/Catholic language barrier. I noticed it immediately when I was in the process of converting.

 

[Gnarwhal]

There is a Protestant/Catholic language barrier. I noticed it immediately when I was in the process of converting.

Well said. It's only after I converted that I realized how much of the dialogue is both sides talking past each other.

 

[Michie]

Well said. It's only after I converted that I realized how much of the dialogue is both sides talking past each other.

Exactly. Many times I realized we were talking about the same thing but with completely different language. Definition was pretty much the same but conveyed in catholicese and protestantese. Lol!