A question for Young Earth Creationists

[jereth]

When I was a small kid, my parents told me this story.

"Once there was a young boy who looked after a flock of sheep near a village. One day the boy ran into the village crying 'wolf, wolf!' The villagers rushed to the field, but found no wolf attacking the sheep. The next day the boy ran into the village again crying 'wolf, wolf!'. Again the villagers hurried to the field, but again there was no wolf. The boy did this a third time, and a fourth. Then one day a wolf came from the forest and attacked the sheep. The boy ran into the village crying 'wolf, wolf!' But this time no one believed him, and the flock was devoured.

The moral of the story is that you should never cry 'wolf'. Even when liars tell the truth, they are not believed."


My questions, directed at Young Earth Creationists, are:
1. Is this story a historical, factual account or is it a myth?
2. Does this story convey truth, or is it a false and worthless tale?

 

[Adoniram]

God warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden. Do you know what happened?

God told Moses to warn the Pharoah about the plagues. Particularly, the death of the firstborn of Egypt. Do you know what happened?

God, through the prophets, warned Israel not to worship idols or they would be led into captivity. Do you know what happened?

Jesus told his disciples that he would be killed, be buried, and rise again. Do you know what happened?

Jesus warned Peter that he would deny him three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed. Do you know what happened?

The Bible is full of decrees and warnings from God, and all have been carried out just as God said.

The moral of the story: God doesn't cry wolf, neither does he lie. The Bible is God's Word.

 

[Assyrian]

God told Adam he would die the day he ate the fruit. Do you know what happened?
God said the snake would eat dust every day. Do you know what happened?
God said the Messiah would crush the snake's head, Do you know what happened?

Now would you like to answer jereth's question?

 

[Adoniram]

Adam died. The snake slithers in the dirt all day long, flicking it's forked tongue all around, by which it gathers a fair amount of dust. The Messiah has not yet crushed the serpent's (or Satan's, which is what that particular passage alludes to) head, but that day is coming sooner rather than later, I'm sure.

As for the above questions, I would be pleased to answer to the best of my abiltiy.

1) Not knowing the OP's parents, I cannot attest to their truthfulness or nontruthfulness. The story does, however, sound like something from Aesop's Fables, and if it is, one could consider it to be somewhat historical in the sense that it is from an ancient source. But, without knowing the actual author, his character, and his history, I cannot say authoritatively whether it is based on an actual event. On the surface, the story looks entirely plausible.

2) Well, the OP got the moral of the story wrong. It is not that you should never cry wolf, but rather that you should not lie. Crying wolf is perfectly acceptable when the circumstances warrent it, for example, yelling Fire! in a crowded theater when there is indeed a fire. The story points out that people who are percieved to be habitual liars are not likely to be believed even when they are telling the truth.

I am wondering why these questions are directed to young earth creationists and what they have to do with anything religious, other than the fact that one of the 10 commandments states that you should not lie. What led me to my initial post was the impression that possibly the OP considers the first portion of the Bible to be a lie.

 

[random_guy]

I am wondering why these questions are directed to young earth creationists and what they have to do with anything religious, other than the fact that one of the 10 commandments states that you should not lie. What led me to my initial post was the impression that possibly the OP considers the first portion of the Bible to be a lie.

I think the reason why it was directed at YECists is because they have the mentality to think that if the Genesis is not literal (Earth is not young), then God is lying. The questions are trying to show that even if a myth is not a historical account, there's still truth in the myth (it's not a lie).

 

[jereth]

1) Not knowing the OP's parents, I cannot attest to their truthfulness or nontruthfulness. The story does, however, sound like something from Aesop's Fables, and if it is, one could consider it to be somewhat historical in the sense that it is from an ancient source. But, without knowing the actual author, his character, and his history, I cannot say authoritatively whether it is based on an actual event. On the surface, the story looks entirely plausible.

Yes, I believe the "wolf" story is from Aesop's Fables. Now, perhaps there is some vague element of historicity in the tale; perhaps it is remotely based on something that really did happen. But in its final form it is most definitely a fable, and the point of a fable is not to report something that happened.

I am wondering why these questions are directed to young earth creationists and what they have to do with anything religious,

See random_guy's remarks. The point of the OP was to demonstrate that a story which is not an accurate historical eyewitness report is still able to communicate profound moral truth. Judging by what they've said here on this forum (and elsewhere), YECists in general don't seem to understand this, especially where Genesis 1-3 is concerned.

What led me to my initial post was the impression that possibly the OP considers the first portion of the Bible to be a lie.

I consider Genesis 1-3 to be mythical and non-historical in nature. Now, does that mean I believe these chapters are lies? I'll let you answer that question...

 

[RealityCheck]

God warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden. Do you know what happened?

God told Adam that he would die "the day he ate of the fruit of that tree." Actually, according to the Bible, he died several centuries later.

God told Moses to warn the Pharoah about the plagues. Particularly, the death of the firstborn of Egypt. Do you know what happened?

Yes. After five plagues, Pharaoh decided to let the Hebrews go. But God forced Pharaoh to NOT let the Hebrews go, just so God could send five more plagues. Including the "death of the firstborn."

Nice.

God, through the prophets, warned Israel not to worship idols or they would be led into captivity. Do you know what happened?

Yes. Even after they had cleansed themselves of other religions and had re-consecrated the Temple and turned back to worshipping God, they were led into captivity yet again. Hmmmm....

Jesus told his disciples that he would be killed, be buried, and rise again. Do you know what happened?

He was executed for sedition.

Jesus warned Peter that he would deny him three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowed. Do you know what happened?

Magically, it happens just as Jesus says! Just like any other story in which you need to use the common literary device called foreshadowing to build dramatic tension.

The Bible is full of decrees and warnings from God, and all have been carried out just as God said.

There are a couple of possibilities:

A) God said it would happen, and it did.

B) Something happened, and someone wrote it down afterward, in the form of a story of someone in the past predicting that this event would happen in the future. How miraculous.

 

[RichardT]

God told Adam he would die the day he ate the fruit. Do you know what happened?
God said the snake would eat dust every day. Do you know what happened?
God said the Messiah would crush the snake's head, Do you know what happened?

Now would you like to answer jereth's question?

lol, is this a joke? God's word never lies... Adam did die...

 

[RichardT]

I think the reason why it was directed at YECists is because they have the mentality to think that if the Genesis is not literal (Earth is not young), then God is lying. The questions are trying to show that even if a myth is not a historical account, there's still truth in the myth (it's not a lie).

Myths are lies.... With some truth in them.

 

[Jase]

lol, is this a joke? God's word never lies... Adam did die...

Yes, Adam did - hundreds of years after the Bible says he would.

 

[djbcrawford]

God told Adam that he would die "the day he ate of the fruit of that tree." Actually, according to the Bible, he died several centuries later.

But did his death begin when he ate the fruit. Did the divine part of him die that day, in that he now feared God and had to hide from him (just like his desendents still do)?

Yes. After five plagues, Pharaoh decided to let the Hebrews go. But God forced Pharaoh to NOT let the Hebrews go, just so God could send five more plagues. Including the "death of the firstborn."

Nice.

This is the debate of predestination vs free-will. Some Jewish writers believed that everything was caused by God. The arguement is that everything is created and controlled by God so everything that happens is under his control and he makes it happen. In Moses eyes, Pharaoh changes his mind so God must have caused it. They wrote it the way they saw it. If you believe Pharoah had free will (I do) he changed his own mind.

Magically, it happens just as Jesus says! Just like any other story in which you need to use the common literary device called foreshadowing to build dramatic tension.

Except not many writers will be tortured and murdered for refusing to say that their story was just made up.

There are a couple of possibilities:

A) God said it would happen, and it did.

B) Something happened, and someone wrote it down afterward, in the form of a story of someone in the past predicting that this event would happen in the future. How miraculous.

I guess this is where faith comes in. Is it true or just some made up hoax started by people who were willing to be tortured and killed to defend, yet ended up changing the world.

Just out of interest, what do you believe yourself?

 

[RealityCheck]

Yes, Adam did - hundreds of years after the Bible says he would.

Genesis 2:

16The LORD God (Q)commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it (R)you will surely die."

Genesis 5:

4Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters.
5So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.


Now unless you're going to argue that 930 years is as one day to God...

 

[RealityCheck]

Exodus 7: God speaks to Moses -

2"You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother (B)Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.
3"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.


Exodus 9, Plague of Boils:

8Then the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Take for yourselves handfuls of soot from a kiln, and let Moses throw it toward the sky in the sight of Pharaoh.

9"It will become fine dust over all the land of Egypt, and will become (I)boils breaking out with sores on man and beast through all the land of Egypt."
10So they took soot from a kiln, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses threw it toward the sky, and it became boils breaking out with sores on man and beast.
11(J)The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians as well as on all the Egyptians. 12And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.


And Again: Exodus 10, Plague of Locusts:

1Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,
2and (B)that you may tell in the hearing of your son, and of your grandson, how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, (C)that you may know that I am the LORD."




Now, how do you view those verses without concluding that God is the one willfully making Pharaoh deny the Hebrews' release, all so that God can make himself look good?

 

[RealityCheck]

But did his death begin when he ate the fruit. Did the divine part of him die that day, in that he now feared God and had to hide from him (just like his desendents still do)?

You hide from God? Where, behind the couch?

This is the debate of predestination vs free-will. Some Jewish writers believed that everything was caused by God. The arguement is that everything is created and controlled by God so everything that happens is under his control and he makes it happen. In Moses eyes, Pharaoh changes his mind so God must have caused it. They wrote it the way they saw it. If you believe Pharoah had free will (I do) he changed his own mind.

See above. It's made quite clear in Exodus that God himself is the one forcing Pharaoh to take a certain course of action.

Except not many writers will be tortured and murdered for refusing to say that their story was just made up.

Don't see how this is an answer.

I guess this is where faith comes in. Is it true or just some made up hoax started by people who were willing to be tortured and killed to defend, yet ended up changing the world.

Just out of interest, what do you believe yourself?

You forget the third option - that the people willing to die for their belief really believed it to be true and accurate, but were wrong.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Except not many writers will be tortured and murdered for refusing to say that their story was just made up.


for a modern example see LDS.
for a older one see Islam.

the evidence is that people will often believe something enough to die for it, and there exist other people who think them foolish for doing so. As well as many who are equally willing to help them along on their route to martyrdom, see General MacArthur's statement about dying for your country.

i'd suspect that nationalism is an even better and more persuasive example but on that course i'd point out that the survival rate for both Vietnamese communists and Mao's Chinese communists was far lower than any persecution that the Christians saw for 3 centuries . And i don't see anyone arguing that their sacrifice means that the ideal of communism must be true.

perhaps the examples abounding of martyrs actually show dedication, inspiration, sincerity are no evidence of truthfulness only of motivation and desire.

 

[RealityCheck]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rmwilliamsll again.​

​

 

[RichardT]

RealityCheck is buddy with NathanPoe, an Atheist....

 

[RealityCheck]

RealityCheck is buddy with NathanPoe, an Atheist....

And this is a problem for you because..........

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

And this is a problem for you because..........

Who knows, maybe he isn't aware that Jesus ministed to EVERYONE.

 

[laptoppop]

I consider Genesis 1-3 to be mythical and non-historical in nature.

What about the rest of the book? At what point does it switch from myth to history? Or does it? In your viewpoint, is the account of Abraham historical? How about Moses and the book of Exodus? How about King David? Where in the geneaology of Luke is the break between myth and history?