A question about Feminism

[No Swansong]

Earlier today I had a conversation with a close friend of mine who is a very outspoken feminist. We were discussing the Olympics and she commented that "No true feminist would ever participate in any sporting event that kept men and women separate. That equality between the sexes means just that equality." She further asserted that women skiers should compete with all skiers, likewise women skaters against all skaters, women hockey players against all hockey players etc. Her thought was that as long as sporting events separate men and women that the public will never accept that women are equal to men.

I would be interested in all points of view. At first I dismissed her conclusion as being reactionary and probably biased by here seemingly hyper feminist views. I also realize she committed the no true scotsman fallacy. However she seems to have a strong if flawed argument. I am most interested in responses by feminists but appreciate all who wish to respond.

 

[Wayte]

That's basically how I feel about it. Give everybody equal requirements, don't seperate by gender, and then everybody gets in on their own merits.
Not a feminist(not a fem either lol), but I happen to be a big fan of equality, so alot of my views coincide with them.

 

[Fenny the Fox]

Well, don't really consider my feminist, so...

As I see it, the fact is, biologically women and men are not physically equal. There are exceptions, of course. But looking at norms of physical structure, sports and such activities really do need to be divided.

I am all for womens' equal rights and equality. But in the case of physical capacity, I feel there need be some obvious realizations. The average female has a smaller frame, and less muscle capacity than a male of the same age and status. Yes, there are exception. Some women have a larger frame, and more muscle capacity than their male counterparts. But the exception should not make the rule.

Were the female and male counterparts at, say, Olympic events allowed to compete side by side, the females would, inevitably, come in with lower scores than the males (on average, obviously, and not the whole) in many events. In particular such events as down hill skiing, speed skating, etc.

 

[Mystman]

In the vast majority of sports, there is a seperation in order to allow women to compete at the top level.

The non-acceptance of women as truly equal is simply because women aren't truly equal to men in the field of sports. In almost all sports, the best men will beat the best women. Blame biology.

If your friend has the ideal that men should be completely equal to women, she has a problem with reality. I might think that people should live to be 200 years old - but just thinking that something should be so has no influence on situations like this.

 

[mpok1519]

I don't think coed football or hockey is a good idea at all. Lol

 

[No Swansong]

I appreciate the responses so far, what do you think about her conclusion that women will never truly be considered equal (I think she's speaking of worth) as long as such divisions exist?

For MPOK. I agree that football would definitely be a problem but have you watched womens hockey? Some of those women could be my enforcer anyday. LOL.

 

[Mystman]

I don't think coed football or hockey is a good idea at all. Lol

At my high school, there was one occasion where all the guys went to play football (the kind you play with your feet), but for some reason I ended up playing rugby with all the girls..

..good times

 

[No Swansong]

At my high school, there was one occasion where all the guys went to play football (the kind you play with your feet), but for some reason I ended up playing rugby with all the girls..

..good times

You naughty boy. LOL. We had in my high school a young woman who played on the baseball team. She was one of the best second basemen I have ever played with, and her batting average was around the top of the pack.

 

[Mystman]

I appreciate the responses so far, what do you think about her conclusion that women will never truly be considered equal (I think she's speaking of worth) as long as such divisions exist?

The choice is simple:

1. Having (almost) no women appear at top-sporting events.

2. Having the seperation.

I think 1) is way more hurtful for the position of women in society. It will only reinforce the idea that men are awesome and that women are weaklings only suited for making dinner. Female athletes competing at the Olympics etc show the world that there are plenty of strong, independent woman who are not afraid to throw themselves down mountains on 2 pieces of wood, or dedicating their lives to becoming the (kinda..) best, etc. They are good rolemodels. Just removing them from visibility because otherwise people might get the idea that people aren't equal is counter-productive.

 

[No Swansong]

The choice is simple:

1. Having (almost) no women appear at top-sporting events.

2. Having the seperation.

I think 1) is way more hurtful for the position of women in society. It will only reinforce the idea that men are awesome and that women are weaklings only suited for making dinner. Female athletes competing at the Olympics etc show the world that there are plenty of strong, independent woman who are not afraid to throw themselves down mountains on 2 pieces of wood, or dedicating their lives to becoming the (kinda..) best, etc. They are good rolemodels. Just removing them from visibility because otherwise people might get the idea that people aren't equal is counter-productive.

Well said and I agree you are probably correct. Removing strong role models from the public never increases esteem.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I appreciate the responses so far, what do you think about her conclusion that women will never truly be considered equal (I think she's speaking of worth) as long as such divisions exist?

For MPOK. I agree that football would definitely be a problem but have you watched womens hockey? Some of those women could be my enforcer anyday. LOL.

I think she should ask herself whether men could ever truly be considered equal to women unless they gave birth to children. Physical differences do not equate to differences of worth.

 

[FreeSpirit74]

likewise women skaters against all skaters,

Considering that there is not, at this time a female skater capable of throwing a quad jump, unlike the men, I would say no.

 

[No Swansong]

Considering that there is not, at this time a female skater capable of throwing a quad jump, unlike the men, I would say no.

I understand but I would point out that there are a number of men who can't as well. (just playing devils advocate) The men who can't must still compete with the men who can.

 

[yasic]

I understand but I would point out that there are a number of men who can't as well. (just playing devils advocate) The men who can't must still compete with the men who can.

In sports where women are physically as capable as men to compete, no separation is necessary, but when a clear and obvious physical difference exists, separation helps keep the lesser party involved.

Would your friend argue that hosting the special Olympics is showing that handicapped people are inferior? Would he rather we close those down?

And yes, I am a feminist.

 

[No Swansong]

In sports where women are physically as capable as men to compete, no separation is necessary, but when a clear and obvious physical difference exists, separation helps keep the lesser party involved.

Would your friend argue that hosting the special Olympics is showing that handicapped people are inferior? Would he rather we close those down?

And yes, I am a feminist.

My friend is a she but I'm not sure that is important. I'm not sure if she would say the same about the Special Olympics. I don't think she is making the statement that women are inferior actually I'm sure she's not, what I think she is saying is that public perception will not change with such divisions.

Out of curiosity how would you determine if a particular sport falls into the category where women can compete equally?

 

[yasic]

My friend is a she but I'm not sure that is important. I'm not sure if she would say the same about the Special Olympics. I don't think she is making the statement that women are inferior actually I'm sure she's not, what I think she is saying is that public perception will not change with such divisions.

Out of curiosity how would you determine if a particular sport falls into the category where women can compete equally?

Simple. Have people play each other in big games. If at least 30% of the winners (say top 10% of players) are women, then there is no reason to separate them by genders.

 

[No Swansong]

Simple. Have people play each other in big games. If at least 30% of the winners (say top 10% of players) are women, then there is no reason to separate them by genders.

Ok that sounds reasonable.

Do you agree with my friend however that such separations foster inequality?

 

[quatona]

Earlier today I had a conversation with a close friend of mine who is a very outspoken feminist. We were discussing the Olympics and she commented that "No true feminist would ever participate in any sporting event that kept men and women separate. That equality between the sexes means just that equality."

That´s not at all what "gender equality" means to me.
However, I find the idea of introducing competitions for men and women in addition to the gender separated competitions considerable - for those who feel that that´s what "gender equality" means.
Then again, if, say, a world class female sprinter would like to know how she does compared to world class male sprinters the already available information should be sufficient to fill her in.

 

[No Swansong]

That´s not at all what "gender equality" means to me.
However, I find the idea of introducing competitions for men and women in addition to the gender separated competitions considerable - for those who feel that that´s what "gender equality" means.
Then again, if, say, a world class female sprinter would like to know how she does compared to world class male sprinters the already available information should be sufficient to fill her in.

That's an idea I had not considered (in addition as opposed to replacing) How do you feel about her thought that as long as such separations exist public perception will not change?

 

[quatona]

That's an idea I had not considered (in addition as opposed to replacing) How do you feel about her thought that as long as such separations exist public perception will not change?

Which particular public perception exactly?
The public perception that women
a. on average and
b. compared by top performances
do not perform nearly as well as men in most every competitive physical sports?
I think it won´t change either way - simply because that´s the way it is, and direct competition on a top notch level will easily prove it.

Any other public perception that she is talking about?

Actually, I am not sure I see the problem, in the first place. See, my sports is Badminton. On average and on measured by top notch performance, men can run circles round women in this particular sports. However, I have no problem whatsoever with a woman challenging me, and there are a couple of women in my club who defeat me hands down.