A problem with substitutionary atonement

[Rubiks]

I've been reading the Bible and stumbled on this verse.

1 Cor 15:17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

Paul says the resurrection was necessary for salvation, yet a SA model would not need a resurrection.

Thoughts?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I've been reading the Bible and stumbled on this verse.

1 Cor 15:17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

Paul says the resurrection was necessary for salvation, yet a SA model would not need a resurrection.

Thoughts?

Why would a SA model not need a resurrection ?

 

[συνείδησις]

Justification didn't need a resurrection, but eternal life certainly does.

 

[Rubiks]

Why would a SA model not need a resurrection ?

Because SA states Christ bore our sins. Jesus couldn't died and that would be the end. Why do you think SA requires a resurrection?

 

[Rubiks]

Justification didn't need a resurrection, but eternal life certainly does.

You can't have justification without eternal life and can't have eternal life without justification. They both imply each other.

 

[συνείδησις]

You can't have justification without eternal life and can't have eternal life without justification. They both imply each other.

Justification came through Christ's death, not his resurrection. Being justified, we live through his life.

 

[συνείδησις]

Because SA states Christ bore our sins. Jesus couldn't died and that would be the end. Why do you think SA requires a resurrection?

SA requires the resurrection because without it there would have been no giving of the holy spirit and circumcision of the heart to put off the body of sins. Christ is heir of the promises, so he had to rise from the dead to share those with us.

 

[Tutorman]

I've been reading the Bible and stumbled on this verse.

1 Cor 15:17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

Paul says the resurrection was necessary for salvation, yet a SA model would not need a resurrection.

Thoughts?

I like the Recapitulation Theory, it takes away the western legal idea:

The Recapitulation Theory agrees that God needed to deal with man’s sin. Man was separated from God as a result of the fall and, left to his own devices, was incapable of returning to God. However, Recapitulation sees the model through which God dealt with man’s sin as a hospital rather than a courtroom. Instead of viewing the atonement as Christ paying the price for sin in order to satisfy a wrathful God, Recapitulation teaches that Christ became human to heal mankind by perfectly uniting the human nature to the Divine Nature in His person. Through the Incarnation, Christ took on human nature, becoming the Second Adam, and entered into every stage of humanity, from infancy to adulthood, uniting it to God. He then suffered death to enter Hades and destroy it. After three days, He resurrected and completed His task by destroying death.

By entering each of these stages and remaining perfectly obedient to the Father, Christ recapitulated every aspect of human nature. He said “Yes” where Adam said “No” and healed what Adam’s actions had damaged. This enables all of those who are willing to say yes to God to be perfectly united with the Holy Trinity through Christ’s person. In addition, by destroying death, Christ reversed the consequence of the fall. Now, all can be resurrected. Those who choose to live their life in Christ can be perfectly united to the Holy Trinity, receiving the full love of God as Heavenly bliss. However, those who reject Christ and choose to live their lives chasing after their passions will receive the love of God as hell.
​

Source: https://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2011/11/09/the-recapitulation-theory/

 

[συνείδησις]

I like the Recapitulation Theory, it takes away the western legal idea:

How does Christ's death justify sinners in that theory?

 

[Tutorman]

In this there is no legality past that you will have to ask the Orthodox, maybe in their sub forum I am still learning about this. Maybe @~Anastasia~ can help. The link can explain more also and here are some more link(s):

http://orthochristian.com/105429.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory_of_atonement

 

[royal priest]

I like the Recapitulation Theory, it takes away the western legal idea:

The Recapitulation Theory agrees that God needed to deal with man’s sin. Man was separated from God as a result of the fall and, left to his own devices, was incapable of returning to God. However, Recapitulation sees the model through which God dealt with man’s sin as a hospital rather than a courtroom. Instead of viewing the atonement as Christ paying the price for sin in order to satisfy a wrathful God, Recapitulation teaches that Christ became human to heal mankind by perfectly uniting the human nature to the Divine Nature in His person. Through the Incarnation, Christ took on human nature, becoming the Second Adam, and entered into every stage of humanity, from infancy to adulthood, uniting it to God. He then suffered death to enter Hades and destroy it. After three days, He resurrected and completed His task by destroying death.

By entering each of these stages and remaining perfectly obedient to the Father, Christ recapitulated every aspect of human nature. He said “Yes” where Adam said “No” and healed what Adam’s actions had damaged. This enables all of those who are willing to say yes to God to be perfectly united with the Holy Trinity through Christ’s person. In addition, by destroying death, Christ reversed the consequence of the fall. Now, all can be resurrected. Those who choose to live their life in Christ can be perfectly united to the Holy Trinity, receiving the full love of God as Heavenly bliss. However, those who reject Christ and choose to live their lives chasing after their passions will receive the love of God as hell.
​

Source: https://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2011/11/09/the-recapitulation-theory/

Except there is the issue of God's justice. Ezekiel 18:4

 

[BobRyan]

I've been reading the Bible and stumbled on this verse.

1 Cor 15:17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

Paul says the resurrection was necessary for salvation, yet a SA model would not need a resurrection.

Thoughts?

Have you read this ?

Hebrews 8:1 "The MAIN POINT is this..."

That is the key to your question.

The "Atonement" process (as defined in Leviticus 16) has to include NOT ONLY the death of what the text calls "the Lord's goat... the sin offering" but also the ministry of the High Priest applying the blood of the sacrifice in the sanctuary after the sin offering had been slain.

Hebrews 8:1 "The main point" is said to be the work of Christ in heaven as our High Priest - in the heavenly sanctuary... applying the benefits of his blood to the repentant sinner.

And without that all-important component in Atonement the "atoning sacrifice" alone would not be applied to even one sinner.

Thus as 1 John 2:2 says (NIV) "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only - but also for the sins of the whole world" --

And that blood of atonement can only be applied to each one of us - by our High Priest - Jesus Christ who was resurrected and ascended to heaven to take on the role that Hebrews 8 and 9 describe.

 

[Tutorman]

Except there is the issue of God's justice. Ezekiel 18:4

As the site says Westerners think of justice differently than Eastern thought and the Bible is an Eastern document so to say.

But further, Almighty God is celebrated as justice, as distributing things suitable to all, both due measure, and beauty, and good order, and arrangement, and marking out all distributions and orders for each, according to that which truly is the most just limit, and as being Cause for all of the free action of each. For the Divine Justice arranges and disposes all things, and preserving all things unmingled and unconfused, from all, gives to all existing beings things convenient for each, according to the due falling to each existing thing.

~St. Dionysios the Areopagite, Divine Names, Caput 8.7

St. Dionysios reveals to us that when the Church and the Scriptures employ the term “justice,” it is not a legal term, but one regarding the proper order of things. Divine justice is the perfect intended ordering of the cosmos by God. Divine justice does not only refer to the pre-lapsarian (before “the Fall”) order of the cosmos, but also to the way God originally intended Adam to pastorally guide the cosmos. In the Crucifixion, we are given something more than what Adam had in the Garden.
​

Source

 

[paul1149]

a SA model would not need a resurrection.

The SA model does not need a resurrection. It only needs the blood of a perfect man. "A life for a life", and "The life is in the blood".

However, that option is not open to us because Christ claimed to be the Son of God, and He said He would raise from the dead. If He did not raise from the dead, He would have been wrong. He would not have been the perfect man, or the Son of God.

Therefore because of the words Christ spoke to us, it became necessary for Him to raise from the dead, in order to validate those words.

We were justified by His death, but by His resurrection as our High Priest we inherit a far greater position than what was lost in Eden.

Therefore this verse does not do anything to the integrity of the SA doctrine.

 

[royal priest]

As the site says Westerners think of justice differently than Eastern thought and the Bible is an Eastern document so to say.

But further, Almighty God is celebrated as justice, as distributing things suitable to all, both due measure, and beauty, and good order, and arrangement, and marking out all distributions and orders for each, according to that which truly is the most just limit, and as being Cause for all of the free action of each. For the Divine Justice arranges and disposes all things, and preserving all things unmingled and unconfused, from all, gives to all existing beings things convenient for each, according to the due falling to each existing thing.

~St. Dionysios the Areopagite, Divine Names, Caput 8.7

St. Dionysios reveals to us that when the Church and the Scriptures employ the term “justice,” it is not a legal term, but one regarding the proper order of things. Divine justice is the perfect intended ordering of the cosmos by God. Divine justice does not only refer to the pre-lapsarian (before “the Fall”) order of the cosmos, but also to the way God originally intended Adam to pastorally guide the cosmos. In the Crucifixion, we are given something more than what Adam had in the Garden.
​

Source

That still doesn't answer what the Bible actually says regarding God's justice. Where is the Gospel in this theory?

 

[Tutorman]

That still doesn't answer what the Bible actually says regarding God's justice. Where is the Gospel in this theory?

Yo have to ask the Orthodox

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ok since I was tagged lol ... but I'll say up front I'm not interested in arguing. If anyone wishes to argue they can come to St. Justin's and I'm sure some Orthodox will reply.

The simplest way I can explain is that while God is perfectly just - He is not constrained by some kind of cosmic law that won't allow Him to forgive. In essence, that makes sin God's problem rather than ours and puts everything in a legal focus.

(I will note that we do agree that Christ died and shed His blood in atonement for our sins.)

This is one reason we tend to view things through a medical model. After all, the word for "save" in the Scriptures is the same as the word "heal". We are healed from our sins.

And the Resurrection was absolutely essential - we are healed unto eternal life - not death. Not only is it impossible that death should hold the One who is the very source of life itself, but by resurrecting Christ defeated death, and that has far more to do with us being granted eternal life than simple accounting does. Because death is defeated, we can be brought fully to life on the resurrection, even with our bodies, never to die again.

There is the Gospel - good news. We can be healed from our sin-sickness, restored to the image and likeness of Christ in which we were created, be resurrected to life in an incorruptible body and forever enjoy communion with God.

One more thing - if one wants to hold to a strict "justice" model, there is still the problem of dealing with the "justice" which calls for punishment of an innocent person, and allowing the guilty to escape his due. The medieval practice of using a whipping boy in order to spare the favored son would be viewed by most of us as terribly unjust. A God who was constrained by perfect justice wouldn't be able to apply such a solution. We just never tend to see a matter of "justice" when it wouldn't work in our favor.

I hope that answers what was asked. I don't mind answering further if there are questions, but as I said, I'm not looking to argue. These things are widely written in the early centuries of Christianity, and that was how they understood them. The death and resurrection of Christ was not the fulfillment of a simple formula, but actually accomplished many things. Glory to God!

 

[thesunisout]

One more thing - if one wants to hold to a strict "justice" model, there is still the problem of dealing with the "justice" which calls for punishment of an innocent person, and allowing the guilty to escape his due. The medieval practice of using a whipping boy in order to spare the favored son would be viewed by most of us as terribly unjust. A God who was constrained by perfect justice wouldn't be able to apply such a solution. We just never tend to see a matter of "justice" when it wouldn't work in our favor.

This is why animals were sacrificed before Christ. Weren't they innocent? Well, God used animal sacrifice to atone for the sins of Israel. This is a well documented fact. Why do you think Jesus is called the lamb of God? He was sacrificed to atone for the sins of the world. This is also well documented in the scripture.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This is why animals were sacrificed before Christ. Weren't they innocent? Well, God used animal sacrifice to atone for the sins of Israel. This is a well documented fact. Why do you think Jesus is called the lamb of God? He was sacrificed to atone for the sins of the world. This is also well documented in the scripture.

If you'd like to discuss it in St. Justin's I'm sure someone else would be happy to.

https://www.christianforums.com/forums/st-justin-martyrs-corner-debate-an-orthodox-chr.827/


Please forgive me. I find debate to be spiritually unprofitable.

I will say however that I did agree that Christ died in atonement for our sins.

And that the animals who were sacrificed as a prefigurement of the atonement were never tortured.

 

[συνείδησις]

One more thing - if one wants to hold to a strict "justice" model, there is still the problem of dealing with the "justice" which calls for punishment of an innocent person, and allowing the guilty to escape his due.

That is exactly the state that all of us are in. We are guilty and could never have that debt erased if it weren't for GOD's grace. He himself chose to bear the injustice in order to justify us and free us from the just punishment we deserve. Unspeakable love.