A powerful member of a species, is repeatedly told "you have failed to evolve" and does not know how

I believe response to negative social pressure is...

  • ... more powerful than response to mutation

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  • ... less powerful than response to mutation

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So this is just setting up the progression, in the opposite direction: a powerful member of a species is repeatedly told "you have failed to evolve" and the member does not know how - what happens as soon as that member mates and has offspring? Surely it depends on how that member interpreted failure to evolve? Did he resent Evolution, and eschew instinct for it? Or did he embrace not needing to know how? You see that you could very well become ignorant of the very thing that is most important to Evolutionists? The belief that Evolution is concurrent with desirable change, would be ignored?

So what is this powerful member of a species to do? His offspring need an instinct for something - and the sharper the instinct he passes on, the more likely they too will evolve, its just that they may not consider instinct for Evolution worthy (of them)? They will be a-evolved, as it were. This is not a detriment, to anything the offspring will do: they can still hunt, mate and adventure; the pressure to be like other species that believe Evolution will be irrelevant, not even an after-thought. What is the measure of the instinct that the offspring will have, perhaps even for the life of those that refused to acknowledge any "evolution" in the parent? Will they come after the "truly Evolved"?

This is where you are supposed to respond with the "Mystery" of Evolution, that it can only be interpreted for or against on the basis of a generation's ability to meet the test affecting all of the members of a given species. This is where you are supposed to say "the condemnation of that which is not evolved enough, is or is not effective in bringing about concern for how it will be passed on, nothing more" - as if to say that the indifference only brings on the inevitable if it was there already? This is not genuine - the aim should be to enable all creatures to interpret Evolution as freely as possible, that the truest expression of Evolution, is one that crosses specie boundaries, and reinvigorates the attempt to unite the hierarchy of species around greater survival, with less time given to speculation about what else is coming - the good that could be done, being done.

It is attributed to Einstein, perhaps mistakenly, that "If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid". What I am asking here, is what does that stupidity mean in terms of "Evolution"? Does the fish pass on stupidity to the next generation? Or is the instinct to climb a tree, translated into an instinctive excellence for circumnavigating seaweed in the ocean? Can Evolution for one thing be transposed into great Evolution at something else? Does responding to mutation necessarily have to come first, or can pressure alone provoke innovating response? Does the pressure to climb a tree itself, not require a specific mutation?

If this means anything, it is perhaps most relevant, that negative pressure can be forgiven. Mutations can be overlooked, but social pressure can be forgiven. This is an important distinction: it is not necessary for someone who is pressured to develop mutations, as though that will help the pressure! The negativity on its own, can recruit adaptations that seem relevant, knowing that any specific mutation points interplacently to the broader context that adaptations may or may not take greater place in. There is in other words, a readiness to respond to social pressure; responding to social pressure, is better than responding to mutations - even if it is negative only.

In other words, negative social pressure, cannot easily and lightly be ignored, but most certainly redirected. To what end? Again, that is what I am asking you here: will future generations redirect negative social pressure better or will they adapt ways to identify who it is from, before it is encountered as something personal that they must personally deal with? You can see that there is a possible rejection of Evolution altogether here, right? Does rejection of social pressure, end up putting pressure on Evolution itself - to adapt a gentler way of urging change, even if it does put the species at higher risk of dying out, its adaptations not being competitive enough?

In part I feel like I have answered my own question, but please, take what you will and make something of it - I am not attempting to pressure you, into reinterpreting what may or may not be pressure you have tried applying in the past? Stay free.
 

Tolworth John

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a powerful member of a species is repeatedly told "you have failed to evolve" and the member does not know how


Evolution is not concusly directed , if it happens it is what ever process enables multiple individuals to survie and pass on there survival characteristics.
 
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Tanj

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Hi there,

So this is just setting up the progression, in the opposite direction: a powerful member of a species is repeatedly told "you have failed to evolve" and the member does not know how - what happens

The powerful member beats up the weak one speaking silly nonsense because, amongst other things, evolution happens to a population not an individual, and that's the end of it.
 
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mindlight

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Hi there,

So this is just setting up the progression, in the opposite direction: a powerful member of a species is repeatedly told "you have failed to evolve" and the member does not know how - what happens as soon as that member mates and has offspring? Surely it depends on how that member interpreted failure to evolve? Did he resent Evolution, and eschew instinct for it? Or did he embrace not needing to know how? You see that you could very well become ignorant of the very thing that is most important to Evolutionists? The belief that Evolution is concurrent with desirable change, would be ignored?

So what is this powerful member of a species to do? His offspring need an instinct for something - and the sharper the instinct he passes on, the more likely they too will evolve, its just that they may not consider instinct for Evolution worthy (of them)? They will be a-evolved, as it were. This is not a detriment, to anything the offspring will do: they can still hunt, mate and adventure; the pressure to be like other species that believe Evolution will be irrelevant, not even an after-thought. What is the measure of the instinct that the offspring will have, perhaps even for the life of those that refused to acknowledge any "evolution" in the parent? Will they come after the "truly Evolved"?

This is where you are supposed to respond with the "Mystery" of Evolution, that it can only be interpreted for or against on the basis of a generation's ability to meet the test affecting all of the members of a given species. This is where you are supposed to say "the condemnation of that which is not evolved enough, is or is not effective in bringing about concern for how it will be passed on, nothing more" - as if to say that the indifference only brings on the inevitable if it was there already? This is not genuine - the aim should be to enable all creatures to interpret Evolution as freely as possible, that the truest expression of Evolution, is one that crosses specie boundaries, and reinvigorates the attempt to unite the hierarchy of species around greater survival, with less time given to speculation about what else is coming - the good that could be done, being done.

It is attributed to Einstein, perhaps mistakenly, that "If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid". What I am asking here, is what does that stupidity mean in terms of "Evolution"? Does the fish pass on stupidity to the next generation? Or is the instinct to climb a tree, translated into an instinctive excellence for circumnavigating seaweed in the ocean? Can Evolution for one thing be transposed into great Evolution at something else? Does responding to mutation necessarily have to come first, or can pressure alone provoke innovating response? Does the pressure to climb a tree itself, not require a specific mutation?

If this means anything, it is perhaps most relevant, that negative pressure can be forgiven. Mutations can be overlooked, but social pressure can be forgiven. This is an important distinction: it is not necessary for someone who is pressured to develop mutations, as though that will help the pressure! The negativity on its own, can recruit adaptations that seem relevant, knowing that any specific mutation points interplacently to the broader context that adaptations may or may not take greater place in. There is in other words, a readiness to respond to social pressure; responding to social pressure, is better than responding to mutations - even if it is negative only.

In other words, negative social pressure, cannot easily and lightly be ignored, but most certainly redirected. To what end? Again, that is what I am asking you here: will future generations redirect negative social pressure better or will they adapt ways to identify who it is from, before it is encountered as something personal that they must personally deal with? You can see that there is a possible rejection of Evolution altogether here, right? Does rejection of social pressure, end up putting pressure on Evolution itself - to adapt a gentler way of urging change, even if it does put the species at higher risk of dying out, its adaptations not being competitive enough?

In part I feel like I have answered my own question, but please, take what you will and make something of it - I am not attempting to pressure you, into reinterpreting what may or may not be pressure you have tried applying in the past? Stay free.

As a creationist, I do not believe that biological evolution really happens on the level of Type to Type changes, though of course, small-scale adaptations occur over time and are observable.

But as I understand the theory negative social pressure has little to do with it. It is more to do with biological survival and the traits which perform better in changing circumstances becoming the dominant ones in a species over time. Also, there is little choice or conscious direction occurring here as the changes occur as a result of reproduction and the minor variations that occur in each new generation.

Coming from Britain but now living in Germany I am aware of the contrast between British and German mentalities here. The British way is a gentler and more organic approach to change that does not involve chopping off the head of the monarch. The continental approach is more abrupt and extreme. Germans have their plans and methods and we have our history and traditions. The one is conscious and deliberate and the other instinctive and organic.

So a powerful figure is hated by all and sundry and criticized for his inability to change is at the heart of your question. If I were that man my focus would be on God and asking if what I was doing was right, if it really mattered in the grand scheme of things, and whether or not I should continue to fight for it. If all the answers to those questions were yes then negative feedback would be pretty much irrelevant. If not then I would look for ways to improve the way I present my ideas first, then I would look to see if any compromises on fundamentals were possible and ask what would be the most constructive changes. Obviously taking the sting out of potentially violent responses to my positions would be a priority.
 
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Frank Robert

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So this is just setting up the progression, in the opposite direction: a powerful member of a species is repeatedly told "you have failed to evolve" and the member does not know how - what happens as soon as that member mates and has offspring?
I stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Populations evolve, individual do not evolve.The only thing that stops evolution of a population is extinction.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Populations evolve, individual do not evolve.The only thing that stops evolution of a population is extinction.

I stopped reading at the title.
 
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ottawak

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Hi there,

So this is just setting up the progression, in the opposite direction: a powerful member of a species is repeatedly told "you have failed to evolve" and the member does not know how - what happens as soon as that member mates and has offspring? Surely it depends on how that member interpreted failure to evolve? Did he resent Evolution, and eschew instinct for it? Or did he embrace not needing to know how? You see that you could very well become ignorant of the very thing that is most important to Evolutionists? The belief that Evolution is concurrent with desirable change, would be ignored?

So what is this powerful member of a species to do? His offspring need an instinct for something - and the sharper the instinct he passes on, the more likely they too will evolve, its just that they may not consider instinct for Evolution worthy (of them)? They will be a-evolved, as it were. This is not a detriment, to anything the offspring will do: they can still hunt, mate and adventure; the pressure to be like other species that believe Evolution will be irrelevant, not even an after-thought. What is the measure of the instinct that the offspring will have, perhaps even for the life of those that refused to acknowledge any "evolution" in the parent? Will they come after the "truly Evolved"?

This is where you are supposed to respond with the "Mystery" of Evolution, that it can only be interpreted for or against on the basis of a generation's ability to meet the test affecting all of the members of a given species. This is where you are supposed to say "the condemnation of that which is not evolved enough, is or is not effective in bringing about concern for how it will be passed on, nothing more" - as if to say that the indifference only brings on the inevitable if it was there already? This is not genuine - the aim should be to enable all creatures to interpret Evolution as freely as possible, that the truest expression of Evolution, is one that crosses specie boundaries, and reinvigorates the attempt to unite the hierarchy of species around greater survival, with less time given to speculation about what else is coming - the good that could be done, being done.

It is attributed to Einstein, perhaps mistakenly, that "If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid". What I am asking here, is what does that stupidity mean in terms of "Evolution"? Does the fish pass on stupidity to the next generation? Or is the instinct to climb a tree, translated into an instinctive excellence for circumnavigating seaweed in the ocean? Can Evolution for one thing be transposed into great Evolution at something else? Does responding to mutation necessarily have to come first, or can pressure alone provoke innovating response? Does the pressure to climb a tree itself, not require a specific mutation?

If this means anything, it is perhaps most relevant, that negative pressure can be forgiven. Mutations can be overlooked, but social pressure can be forgiven. This is an important distinction: it is not necessary for someone who is pressured to develop mutations, as though that will help the pressure! The negativity on its own, can recruit adaptations that seem relevant, knowing that any specific mutation points interplacently to the broader context that adaptations may or may not take greater place in. There is in other words, a readiness to respond to social pressure; responding to social pressure, is better than responding to mutations - even if it is negative only.

In other words, negative social pressure, cannot easily and lightly be ignored, but most certainly redirected. To what end? Again, that is what I am asking you here: will future generations redirect negative social pressure better or will they adapt ways to identify who it is from, before it is encountered as something personal that they must personally deal with? You can see that there is a possible rejection of Evolution altogether here, right? Does rejection of social pressure, end up putting pressure on Evolution itself - to adapt a gentler way of urging change, even if it does put the species at higher risk of dying out, its adaptations not being competitive enough?

In part I feel like I have answered my own question, but please, take what you will and make something of it - I am not attempting to pressure you, into reinterpreting what may or may not be pressure you have tried applying in the past? Stay free.
Are you ever going to discuss the real theory of evolution? If not, why are you posting here?
 
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Larniavc

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Hi there,

So this is just setting up the progression, in the opposite direction: a powerful member of a species is repeatedly told "you have failed to evolve" and the member does not know how - what happens as soon as that member mates and has offspring? Surely it depends on how that member interpreted failure to evolve? Did he resent Evolution, and eschew instinct for it? Or did he embrace not needing to know how? You see that you could very well become ignorant of the very thing that is most important to Evolutionists? The belief that Evolution is concurrent with desirable change, would be ignored?

So what is this powerful member of a species to do? His offspring need an instinct for something - and the sharper the instinct he passes on, the more likely they too will evolve, its just that they may not consider instinct for Evolution worthy (of them)? They will be a-evolved, as it were. This is not a detriment, to anything the offspring will do: they can still hunt, mate and adventure; the pressure to be like other species that believe Evolution will be irrelevant, not even an after-thought. What is the measure of the instinct that the offspring will have, perhaps even for the life of those that refused to acknowledge any "evolution" in the parent? Will they come after the "truly Evolved"?

This is where you are supposed to respond with the "Mystery" of Evolution, that it can only be interpreted for or against on the basis of a generation's ability to meet the test affecting all of the members of a given species. This is where you are supposed to say "the condemnation of that which is not evolved enough, is or is not effective in bringing about concern for how it will be passed on, nothing more" - as if to say that the indifference only brings on the inevitable if it was there already? This is not genuine - the aim should be to enable all creatures to interpret Evolution as freely as possible, that the truest expression of Evolution, is one that crosses specie boundaries, and reinvigorates the attempt to unite the hierarchy of species around greater survival, with less time given to speculation about what else is coming - the good that could be done, being done.

It is attributed to Einstein, perhaps mistakenly, that "If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid". What I am asking here, is what does that stupidity mean in terms of "Evolution"? Does the fish pass on stupidity to the next generation? Or is the instinct to climb a tree, translated into an instinctive excellence for circumnavigating seaweed in the ocean? Can Evolution for one thing be transposed into great Evolution at something else? Does responding to mutation necessarily have to come first, or can pressure alone provoke innovating response? Does the pressure to climb a tree itself, not require a specific mutation?

If this means anything, it is perhaps most relevant, that negative pressure can be forgiven. Mutations can be overlooked, but social pressure can be forgiven. This is an important distinction: it is not necessary for someone who is pressured to develop mutations, as though that will help the pressure! The negativity on its own, can recruit adaptations that seem relevant, knowing that any specific mutation points interplacently to the broader context that adaptations may or may not take greater place in. There is in other words, a readiness to respond to social pressure; responding to social pressure, is better than responding to mutations - even if it is negative only.

In other words, negative social pressure, cannot easily and lightly be ignored, but most certainly redirected. To what end? Again, that is what I am asking you here: will future generations redirect negative social pressure better or will they adapt ways to identify who it is from, before it is encountered as something personal that they must personally deal with? You can see that there is a possible rejection of Evolution altogether here, right? Does rejection of social pressure, end up putting pressure on Evolution itself - to adapt a gentler way of urging change, even if it does put the species at higher risk of dying out, its adaptations not being competitive enough?

In part I feel like I have answered my own question, but please, take what you will and make something of it - I am not attempting to pressure you, into reinterpreting what may or may not be pressure you have tried applying in the past? Stay free.
Oh for God’s sake you have been told myriad of times that organisms DO NOT EVOLVE.

Populations evolve.
 
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Frank Robert

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Are you ever going to discuss the real theory of evolution? If not, why are you posting here?
Some people are unable to delve into and learn about the ToE because doing so would create confusion and doubt. To avoid doubt they attack the ToE from the periphery, such as what the ToE does not explain, to maintain their confirmation bias.



what-is-a-confirmation-bias-2795024_SOURCE-fef0b016bc1540038090a12e9a71b460.png


 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Some people are unable to delve into and learn about the ToE because doing so would create confusion and doubt. To avoid doubt they attack the ToE from the periphery, such as what the ToE does explain, to maintain their confirmation bias.
what-is-a-confirmation-bias-2795024_SOURCE-fef0b016bc1540038090a12e9a71b460.png


Gottservant doesn't suffer from confirmation bias. He's... it's hard to describe his case, but he has admitted to suffering from schizophrenia and also something he calls 'dysintellexia'.
 
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Frank Robert

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Gottservant doesn't suffer from confirmation bias. He's... it's hard to describe his case, but he has admitted to suffering from schizophrenia and also something he calls 'dysintellexia'.
Even if G is schizophrenia he is obviously intelligent. I too have a mild case of dyslexia along with my fair share of biases.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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BPPLEE

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I stopped reading after the 1st sentence. Populations evolve, individual do not evolve.The only thing that stops evolution of a population is extinction.
Not agreeing with the OP but aren't populations made up of individuals
 
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Frank Robert

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Frank Robert

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Not agreeing with the OP but aren't populations made up of individuals
Yes, populations are made up with individuals. Individuals contribute to evolution through mutation which is random. Evolution is the favorable selection of beneficial mutations.
847px-Mutation_and_selection_diagram.svg.png
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Thanks. I don't know where he got the term from. I kneow it was not a psychological or learning disability term. I could not find it. I even tried the urban dictionary.

Aphasia is a better fit for "the inability to relate one thought to another"

It's a term he came up with. I'll be honest, it's not a bad term, but it's nice to know that there IS an actual term for it too.
 
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