A potent quote from Saint Sophrony about Psychology

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

"People’s growing love of Psychology Is A Terrible Thing. Psychology helps those in the West, but it is dreadful when the Orthodox learn psychology and substitute it for the neptic tradition of the Church."

"We must undermine Orthodox Christians’ love of psychology, Because Psychological Methodology Is Outside The Orthodox Tradition and at the same time, it is characterized by the Western mentality."

- Saint Sophrony

"I Know a Man in Christ: Elder Sophrony the Hesychast and Theologian, pg, 269"


https://www.amazon.com/Know-Man-Christ-Hesychast-Theologian/dp/9607070895

It really just confirms how I already felt about the use of psychology by Christians.


Also :


“The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials, we must be living in a different world.”
- Fr. Seraphim Rose.

And


• The Jesus Prayer and the Psychological Persecution which awaits us
(By Elder Justin Parvu of blessed memory).

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[sparow]

"People’s growing love of Psychology Is A Terrible Thing. Psychology helps those in the West, but it is dreadful when the Orthodox learn psychology and substitute it for the neptic tradition of the Church."

"We must undermine Orthodox Christians’ love of psychology, Because Psychological Methodology Is Outside The Orthodox Tradition and at the same time, it is characterized by the Western mentality."

- Saint Sophrony

"I Know a Man in Christ: Elder Sophrony the Hesychast and Theologian, pg, 269"


https://www.amazon.com/Know-Man-Christ-Hesychast-Theologian/dp/9607070895

It really just confirms how I already felt about the use of psychology by Christians.


Also :


“The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials, we must be living in a different world.”
- Fr. Seraphim Rose.

And


• The Jesus Prayer and the Psychological Persecution which awaits us
(By Elder Justin Parvu of blessed memory).

.

Everything comes in good and bad forms; most things associated with the world is a bad form; we are all sychs and we all size up other people.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes, psychology is bad when it tries to replace the Tradition of the Church. but I would also note that one of St Sophrony's spiritual children is a Jungian psychologist.

 

[rusmeister]

Yes, psychology is bad when it tries to replace the Tradition of the Church.

It has a natural tendency to do so. The very word implies a science of the soul, which is, uh, the business of the Church. I think modern psychology is used to replace two traditional institutions: priests and friends.

It’s by no means his only observation on the then-brand-new science, but it shows up some of the problems that you don’t need to be an expert to get (and this is the problem - the modern expert wishes to claim that not ordinary men, and not even the philosopher can understand or speak about his special field):
https://www.chesterton.org/child-psychology-and-nonsense

 

[ArmyMatt]

It has a natural tendency to do so. The very word implies a science of the soul, which is, uh, the business of the Church. I think modern psychology is used to replace two traditional institutions: priests and friends.

that's why Dr Renos Papadopoulos is important (he's the guy I mentioned). being St Sophrony's (and now, Elder Zacharias') spiritual child, he knows his discipline's limitations.

 

[All4Christ]

Narrowing down the problems with psychology may be helpful, as some are not falling into replacement of Tradition of the Church or spirituality.

For example, a neuropsychologist may help to determine the effect of surgeries designed to alleviate a condition (such as epilepsy) - which can prevent it from impacting language, ability to think, etc. They help with those who have experienced strokes that impact the ability to speak or think. Neuropsychology is just one example. Negating the psychological field as a whole often does not take into account the wide range of functions performed in the field of psychology far beyond replacing the role of the Church.

 

[peregrinus2017]

that's why Dr Renos Papadopoulos is important (he's the guy I mentioned). being St Sophrony's (and now, Elder Zacharias') spiritual child, he knows his discipline's limitations.

This is really the key. Knowing the limits of the methods or tools you are working with and not trying to apply them to things they are not designed for. It is a problem with much of modern scientific thought.

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is really the key. Knowing the limits of the methods or tools you are working with and not trying to apply them to things they are not designed for. It is a problem with much of modern scientific thought.

yep, this is why the New Atheists crack me up. when they start talking about Christianity deeper than Sunday school, they are way out of their element.

 

[SingularityOne]

yes, psychology is bad when it tries to replace the Tradition of the Church. but I would also note that one of St Sophrony's spiritual children is a Jungian psychologist.

https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Jungian-Psychology-Papadopoulos-Paperback/dp/B008AUGVI2

Is this his book?

 

[ArmyMatt]

https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Jungian-Psychology-Papadopoulos-Paperback/dp/B008AUGVI2

Is this his book?

yep

 

[SingularityOne]

yep

Thanks

 

[rusmeister]

Narrowing down the problems with psychology may be helpful, as some are not falling into replacement of Tradition of the Church or spirituality.

For example, a neuropsychologist may help to determine the effect of surgeries designed to alleviate a condition (such as epilepsy) - which can prevent it from impacting language, ability to think, etc. They help with those who have experienced strokes that impact the ability to speak or think. Neuropsychology is just one example. Negating the psychological field as a whole often does not take into account the wide range of functions performed in the field of psychology far beyond replacing the role of the Church.

I actually wouldn’t argue against this. There IS legitimate knowledge to be had. The trouble, and thing I complain about, is that we let these sciences supercede our Tradition, producing the heresy I call Meliorism (“We know better than the Church fathers, saints, and Christians of the past because of our modern educations and science”). Thus we see Orthodox psychologists, for example, justifying divorce (between two ostensibly penitent members who declare an intent to continue following Christ) when a marriage “doesn’t work”, despite the words of Christ and our sacramental stand which makes the state sacred, and its breaking a horrific thing, again, just as an example. I’m talking about the tendency to use modern science to dismiss elements of Holy Tradition, to treat modern education and science as equal in revelatory authority to Tradition. For there ARE contradictions and conflicts in the claims, and when there are, I say, So much the worse for modern “knowledge”. If anything can go wrong, it is that, and not our Tradition. We need to put the sciences back in their place, and not let them usurp authority they don’t really have.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks

no problem

 

[SingularityOne]

I think the biggest problem in psychology today is the postmodern bent. I’m a marriage and family therapist in training and the postmodern philosophy (and social justice ideology) that is present in the ethics of the field is maddening.

 

[rusmeister]

I think the biggest problem in psychology today is the postmodern bent. I’m a marriage and family therapist in training and the postmodern philosophy (and social justice ideology) that is present in the ethics of the field is maddening.

The essential problem is that psychology, to have any legitimacy, must be subordinate to the teachings of the Church on the soul. It must proceed from Christian understandings. The further away from that it strays, the further from truth about the soul it goes.

 

[SingularityOne]

The essential problem is that psychology, to have any legitimacy, must be subordinate to the teachings of the Church on the soul. It must proceed from Christian understandings. The further away from that it strays, the further from truth about the soul it goes.

Yeah, this is helpful to conceptualize the truth of things based on what I’ve been encountering. It’s like I have to translate Orthodox theology into wording that doesn’t trigger others. But, also not everyone is coming into therapy to do identity work... but identity work usually is at the core of the suffering they are going through. Probably my suffering too tbh, haha.

 

[Light of the East]

So is the OP saying that there is no place at all for psychology of any sort? I get the feeling that what was said in the post was that simply by becoming Orthodox and following the faith of the Church in all its fullness, one can get unbent from years (maybe decades) of physical and/or psychological abuse that has left deep wounds upon the soul.

Thoughts?

 

[rusmeister]

So is the OP saying that there is no place at all for psychology of any sort? I get the feeling that what was said in the post was that simply by becoming Orthodox and following the faith of the Church in all its fullness, one can get unbent from years (maybe decades) of physical and/or psychological abuse that has left deep wounds upon the soul.

Thoughts?

Anyone can say whatever they want. The question is, to what extent does it express the mind of the Church, and not merely that of the individual?
I think that what is right in what the OP says is that we must not give too much credit or authority to earthly sciences, and psychology DOES, by its very name, pretend (in the old sense of "lay a claim") to teach knowledge of the soul, something that has always been the chief concern of the Church. As soon as it tries to go beyond the physical to the spiritual, it has to submit to what the Church teaches or it becomes dangerous; the further from our teaching the more dangerous it becomes.

 

[Light of the East]

I certainly agree with that, especially the last part, but the things that happen to us in our lives deeply affect how we view the world and ultimately how we view God. One of the great tragedies of life is when children are raised by dysfunctional parents, parents who are supposed to give the child a picture of the loving Father, but who instead fill the child with doubts about the goodness of God and His love. This can create serious problems for the child as it becomes an adult, and especially for the adult if conversion to the Christian faith takes place later in life.

A child who is given toxic shame throughout their life, who is emotionally or physically abused, is going to have a hard time releasing that when they experience conversion. A proper role in psychology would be to help the adult to unravel his/her thoughts, especially in the area of understanding God, and see that the defense mechanisms and automatic responses the child has developed over the years/decades are driving their false image of God.

Yes, there is modern psychology which carries a large animus against anything religious, but the proper role of psychology should be to incorporate healing of past wounds within the context of God's love and our proper response to Him in love. It should help us to realize why we have problems with our relationship with God, the foundation of those problems, and how to overcome them using proper thinking in the context of both the Bible, the Church, and reconciling past issues in forgiveness of those who failed us.

As my spiritual director has often said to me when I am wrestling with my life, "God is not your earthly father. He loves you." Many people don't realize that and because of their dysfunctional upbringing, they tend to transfer the sick way in which their earthly family treated them to the Kingdom of God. And don't forget that the evil one is all to happy to work overtime on the mind to transfer those earthly feelings of shame, guilt, and lack of love to the Father when things go sideways in our lives.

I do think there is a place for Christian psychology when it keeps within the boundaries of what the Church teaches.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Evil cult groups / agencies always use covert mind games and Psychology to covertly provoke, and harass people to get them to have a negative reaction as a form of social engineering to entrap them.

They think that they are being slick and sneaky.




People who are deceptive / Liars will not inherit the kingdom of God. We should just be straight forward, honest and direct.

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