A possible end times chronology

[Rize]

[edit] Please take this chronology with a grain of salt.  It is not meant to be exact, but I just felt that it makes some pretty good sense out of Revelation from the pre-wrath rapture position.  I need to revise the chronology with new things that I've learned, but I'm not yet ready to do so.

[edit In the following post I'm going to try and keep a running log of edits to the chronology so that anyone who has already looked at it, can quickly evaluate changes]

The overview of the end times is given by Jesus in Mathew 24 (and in similar detail in Luke 17 and 21 and Mark 13).  Pay careful attention to these descriptions since they dictate the order of the events in Revelation and other prophetic end times material.  Before you make any judgments about the chronology based on your current beliefs (especially in regard to the location of the rapture), please review my entire chronology and consider it carefully.

I'm expecting resistance from the pre-tribulationists and post tribulationists.  This chronology posits a "Pre-Wrath" and "Post tribulation" rapture which combines the two.  A detailed description of the location of the rapture is at the bottom of rollinTHUNDER's second pre-trib rapture post: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/32372.html  It's post number 27, 28 and 29.  Please consider that argument since the coincident, singular second coming/rapture (both at the same time) is the key to this entire chronology.

Summary

Mathew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17 and 21 summarize the end time events, but they are kept in a relatively determinable order.  It's important to note the break in chronology at Mathew 24:15 which takes the reader back to the persecution mentioned in 24:9 and then to the end yet again (Mathew 24:14 "then the end will come." and Mathew 24:30 "the son of man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn."

Revelation conforms to the Mathew chronology when read carefully.  You have Revelation 6 to 11, Revelation 12 to 14 and Revelation 15 and 16 which are each discreet chronological sections.  Yet their events and detail overlap in many places.  Revelation 17 and 18 are individual accounts of things that occur during the wrath of God and are complimentary with Revelation 15 and 16.  Revelation 19 to 22 is the final section and presents the chronology from Armageddon onwards.  It includes the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth and the judgment.

I'll present the integrated verses below along with Mathew 24 and first and second Thessalonians.  Try reading Revelation with this chronology in mind.  Look for the breaks in chronology (in the text) between chapters 11 and 12 and chapters 14 and 15 of Revelation.  Remember that John is in heaven receiving the Revelation and that signs appear in Heaven at these points which breaks the chronology (in which case, events must be examined to reestablish location in time).  Also notice the "zoom-in" nature of chapters 17 and 18, in particular chapter 17 which has a tricky timeline.  This is followed by the finishing chronology of chapters 19 to 22.  Don't forget how Mathew 24 ties it all together.  I'll also present the end times summaries of Paul in the letters to the Thessalonians.

And try to remember that chapter's and veres were divided up about 100 years ago and do not necessarily work properly with the original text of the Bible (keep this in mind particularly in regards to 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5).

Here we go.  If anyone notices any clear problems, please let me know.

Revelation chapters 1 to 3 (these chapters include the letters to the seven chuches which have often been understood as literal and prophetic)

Revelation 4:1-11 (John is called into Heaven to receive the revelation)
Revelation 5:1-14 (the sealed scroll is introduced)

Mathew 24:5 (Jesus begins the signs of the end with the coming of false christs)
Revelation 6:1-2 (1st seal -- the white rider who will conquer; note, Jesus is the Lamb not the rider in white which is probably the Anti-Christ)

Mathew 24:6-7 (wars and rumors of wars, nation will rise against nation)
Revelation 6:3-4 (2nd seal -- wars)

Mathew 24:7 (famines and earthquakes)
Revelation 6:5-6 (3rd seal -- famine)

2 Thessalonians 2:3 ("the man of lawlessness" is revealed)
Revelation 11:1-13 (two witnesses begin preaching)
Mathew 24:9-13 (persecution of the faithful because of Jesus' name)
Revelation 6:7-8 (4th seal -- persecution of a 4th of the Earth via murder, famine and plague (literally "death" in the Greek) and "wild beasts of the Earth"; note that the Greek word used for "wild beast" is translated "the beast" everywhere else in Revelation)

Mathew 24:15 (the intro of this verse "So when you see...", takes us backwards into the persecution of those who are faithful to God)
2 Thessalonians 2:4 (the abomination in the temple)
Mathew 24:16-28 (Jesus tells Israel that they must flee into the mountains when they see the abomination in the temple, and that the elect might even be deceived by false miracles in those days)
2 Thessalonians 2:11 (counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders)
Mathew 24:22 (those days will be cut short)
Revelation 12:1-17 (the dragon chases the woman, which is Israel, into the wilderness, but God will protect her for 42 months so the dragon pursues Christians instead)

Revelation 13:1-18 (the beast (Anti-Christ) is allowed to make war against the saints for 42 months and prevents the unmarked from buying or selling which would result in murder and famine for the saints.  Perhaps plague results from the unsanitary living conditiosn of being driven into hiding and being cut off from medical supplies and hospitals)
2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 (believers must stand firm and keep the teachings of Jesus)
Revelation 6:9-11 (5th seal -- number of Christian martyrs must be completed before the end can come)

Mathew 24:29 (the sign in the sun moon and stars)
Revelation 6:12-17 (6th seal -- sign in the sun moon and stars)

Revelation 7:1-8 (sealing of the 144,000 Jews)
Revelation 14:1-5 (the 144,000 meet the Lamb at "mount Zion")

Mathew 24:14 ("this gospel ... will be preached to all the world ... then the end will come")
Revelation 14:6-7 (the gospel proclaimed to every nation)

Revelation 14:8 (fall of Babylon announced)
Revelation 14:9-12 (coming wrath pronounced upon those who worship the beast and take his mark)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 5:1-9(the rapture of the church will occur before the "wrath")
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (the rapture cannot occur until...[see placement of 2 Thessalonian scriptures above]).
Mathew 24:30-31, 36-41 (the rapture of the church precedes God's wrath)
Revelation 14:13-16 (the rapture of the church)
Revelation 7:9-17 (appearance of raptured saints in Heaven)

Revelation 14:17-20 (the winepress of God's wrath is trampled)
Revelation 8:1-5 (7th seal -- the beginning of the wrath of God which will start with 7 trumpets)
Revelation 9:6-12 (trumpets 1 to 4)
Revelation 9:13 (three "woes" anounced)
Revelation 9:1-11 (trumpet 5)
Revelation 9:12 (first "woe" has passed)
Revelation 13-21 (trumpet 6)
Revelation 11:14 (second "woe" has passed)
Revelation 11:15-19 (trumpet 7; earth quakes and hail storms; note, the passing of the third "woe" is never written explicitly)

Revelation 11:1-13 (two witnesses are killed by the Beast and resurrected 3 days later - this position is a guess at the moment.)

Revelation 15:1-8 (seven bowls of wrath are prepared; the start of the third woe?)
Revelation 16:1-11 (bowls 1 to 5)
Revelation 16:12-16 (bowl 6 - armies are prepared for Armageddon; note that Jesus' interjection in verse 15 seems to be to the reader of Revelation and thus has nothing to do with the chronology)
Revelation 16:17-21 (the fall of Babylon)

Revelation 17:1-18 (a complete description of the great prostitute including its roll in the persecution of Christians during the tribulation and its destruction)

Revelation 18:1-24 (a complete description of the fall of Babylon using many quotes of OT prophesy)

Revelation 19:1-10 (marriage supper of the lamb announced)

Revelation 19:11-21 (Armageddon in detail)
Revelation 20:1-3 (binding of the dragon)
Revelation 20:4-6 (those beheaded by the beast for their testimony of Jesus are resurrected on Earth to reign with Christ for 1000 years; the rest of the Christians are apparently still in heaven, having been raptured there, and we're told they'll join those on Earth at the end of the 1000 years)
Revelation 20:7-10 (Satan is tossed into the Lake of Fire with the beast and the false prophet to be tormented "forever and ever"; there's also a final battle with some people?  This is difficult to understand though since it's after the 1000 years.  My thinking currently is that "a day is as a 1000 years to the Lord"  This 1000 year period may actually be a single day which makes sense of the nations that Satan gathers to make one last attack on Israel). 
Revelation 20:11-15 (the judgment of the dead takes place, the wicked are tossed into the lake of fire and then "death and Hades" follows; the lake of fire is described as "the second death" in relation to people)
Revelation 21:1-27 (all the saved are ushered into New Jersuselum which is described in detail)
Revelation 22:1-6 (the tree of life will apparently be an important fixture in New Jeruselum)
Revelation 22:7-21 (the closing words of the Bible)

I'm sure there is a problem or two with this chronology, but I'm absolutely convinced that it is very close to being accurate.  Notice that the rapture occurs before the wrath of God, but after the persecution of the Anti-Christ.  Hard-core pre-tribulationists won't like this, but I don't think that the pre-trib rapture is a tenable position in light of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 (which ties the rapture to the "Day of the Lord" which is the wrath of God presented in Revelation).

I originally got the idea from Robert Van Kampen's book "The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple".  The rest of the end times chronology basically fell into place once I was convinced of the pre-wrath position of the rapture.
 

 

[Rize]

UPDATES: 

1) I moved the revelation of the son of perdition to just before the persecution of the 4th seal which seems to be more intuitive.

2) I removed the following two entries:

Revelation 10:1-11 (Little scroll)

After some deliberation, it seems that Revelation 10:1-11 is excised from the chronology completely.  The entire thing occurs in heaven and concerns John himself mostly.  It almost sounds like John could be one of the two witnesses ("you must prophesy again").  Either way, John did this almost 2000 years ago so it has no business in the time line that I can see.

Revelation 11:1-13 (two witnesses)

Perhaps this occurs during the 42 month trampling of the holy city (the breaking of the treaty with Israel)?  Then again, it seems like it would have to start at least 3 days before because the two witnesses lie dead for 3 days.  Then there are the rest of the judgments.  These witnesses could possibly represent martyrs (exactly two, or many from two groups) who are raptured with the rest of the church after their 1260 days of witnessing and their 3 days of lying dead in the streets.  This would place the start of their witnessing at 1263 days before the unknown day of the rapture.  I'll leave it out of the timeline because it's dubious and there no exact position imo.

My original reason for removing them:  There appears to be a break in the chronology as indicated in the opening of Revelation 10 (we're taken back to "heaven" where John is recieving the revelation).  The story of the two witnesses is taken to it's conclusion, all 42 months of it, yet the 7th trumpet probably does not occur after the entire period, but during it.  The question is, when do they start testifying.

3) Editing my original understanding of the 1000 years after Revelation.  I believe that it might refer to a single day (a day is as a thousand years to the lord).  The reason is that I don't understand how there could be 1000 actual years worth of people living in the world only to be amassed to attack Israel the moment Satan is loosed.  It doesn't make much sense.  As a single day, it makes a lot of sense though, because I doubt that all of the people would gather at Armageddon.  Those who reign with Christ during this "period" will be priests according to scripture.  Perhaps they receive priest training during this period   The rest of the saved are to be kings according to scripture (well, the non-priests anyway, I assume that all who are called to be priests will be at the millinial kingdom).

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Rize
...These witnesses could possibly represent martyrs (exactly two, or many from two groups) who are raptured with the rest of the church after their 1260 days of witnessing and their 3 days of lying dead in the streets...

I personally don't believe the raising and ascension of the two witnesses is the 1st resurrection and rapture because their raising and ascension is completed before the 7th trumpet even begins to sound, and is part of the 6th trumpet (or 2nd "woe"), which is an entirely different "woe" than the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:11-15, 8:13, 9:12). I don't believe the 1st resurrection and rapture of the church will take place until after the "last trump" sounds (1 Corinthians 15:52, compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16).

I don't believe the 7th trumpet is the "last trump" because the Lord won't return and sound the last trump until "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), the final stage of which I believe is the 7 vials. Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:11-12, so that we must wait the full 1,335 days, not just 1,260, for the 1st resurrection and rapture.

I don't believe Christ will come to gather us up until the 7 vials are finished, for when Christ comes the Antichrist is destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). The Antichrist isn't destroyed when the two witnesses arise, for he is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-20), after the vials (Revelation 16).

 

[Rize]

Originally posted by postrib
I personally don't believe the raising and ascension of the two witnesses is the 1st resurrection and rapture because their raising and ascension is completed before the 7th trumpet even begins to sound, and is part of the 6th trumpet (or 2nd "woe"), which is an entirely different "woe" than the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:11-15, 8:13, 9:12). I don't believe the 1st resurrection and rapture of the church will take place until after the "last trump" sounds (1 Corinthians 15:52, compare 1 Thessalonians 4:16).

I don't think that the two witnesses are part of the 2nd woe.  Notice, as I said before, that the "the x woe has passed" immediately precedes a trumpet each time it appears.

Notice that in chapter 10, John "saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven".  John then starts talking about an entirely different thing.  I think it's a break in the chronology.  He connects the entire tale to chapter 11 with the word "then" whereupon he runs through the whole of the two witnesses time on earth, right up to their end. 

This is followed by the parallel phrase "The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly."  Is this supposed to be a warning that the second woe is passed, or that the third woe is about to come?  I think that it's the latter.  You already have at least 5 months for the locusts.  If you add this 42 months, then you have 49 months or just about 4 years.  This would mean that the trumpets have to start before the mid point of the tribulation which seems rather odd since the AC doesn't declare himself God in the temple until the mid point (if I'm not mistaken).

Notice that the two witnesses die in Jeruselum and people say that they are modeled after Elijah and... that other guy (forgot ).

Perhaps they are two of the 144,000 sealed Jews rathe than Christians.  It looks like Israel will be going through the whole thing (including the wrath of God, but with protection of those who are faithful).  It's also possible that the 144,000 sealed is a symbolic number, it could mean more than that (much like the 1000 years which may symbolize a single day; I'm not sure).

If I had to pick a place to put the two witnesses, I'd think about sticking them at the mid point of the tribulation.  Perhaps the ending of the sacrifice and the abomination of desolation acts as a catalyst to get these two guys witnessing.  It does say 1260 days of witnessing which corresponds to 3 1/2 years (360 day years).

the 1290 days goes 30 days beyond the 70th week, and the 1335 days goes another 45 days beyond.

Originally posted by postrib
I don't believe the 7th trumpet is the "last trump" because the Lord won't return and sound the last trump until "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), the final stage of which I believe is the 7 vials. Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:11-12, so that we must wait the full 1,335 days, not just 1,260, for the 1st resurrection and rapture.

I don't think the "last trump" is referring to the 7 trumpets of revelation either.  But since there is no other visible trumpet anywhere in Revelation, that helps neither of us (of course, your invisible last trumpet will be after the 7 Revelation trumpets -- point).

The tribulation, in my belief, is the persecution against the saints.  The wrath of God begins after that, so this doesn't help.  You need to show that the tribulation includes the wrath of God.  I need to show that "last trumpet" is an expression that can some how occur before the 7 trumpets of Revelation

The book of Daniel may very well only be talking about the Jews for obvious reasons.  I need to read Daniel though.

As for Jesus' warning inbetween the 6th and 7th bowls, he is speaking to the reader not to people on earth.  So this could be a suggestion that you'll either (a) miss this completey if you stay faithful or (b) be protected through it.  In other words, it doesn't help the pre-wrath or post-trib position.  He could also be talking to the Jews again.

Originally posted by postrib
I don't believe Christ will come to gather us up until the 7 vials are finished, for when Christ comes the Antichrist is destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). The Antichrist isn't destroyed when the two witnesses arise, for he is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-20), after the vials (Revelation 16).

Again, the AC is destroyed by the "splendor of His parousia"  It does not say the moment that Christ comes, the AC is gone.  In fact, if you take the coming of Christ to be the sign of the white rider coming down from heaven 19:11 there is still a problem because there is still a battle to be fought.

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Rize
...This would mean that the trumpets have to start before the mid point of the tribulation which seems rather odd since the AC doesn't declare himself God in the temple until the mid point...

In your view, why would it be odd for the trumpets to start before the abomination of desolation?

Originally posted by Rize
...the 144,000 sealed Jews rathe than Christians...

Can't the 144,000 who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4) be Christians?

Originally posted by Rize
...a place to put the two witnesses...

Could the two witnesses be killed near the end of the tribulation? Could the 1,260 days of their sending plagues on the earth (Revelation 11:3-6) coincide with the 42 months of the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 13:5)?

Originally posted by Rize
...the 1290 days goes 30 days beyond the 70th week, and the 1335 days goes another 45 days beyond...

From the time he commits the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31, 36), I believe the Antichrist is given 1,260 days to rule and persecute believers (compare Revelation 13:5), after which I believe vials 1-5 (Revelation 16) will be poured out on his kingdom over a period of 30 days, during which time we don't see him persecuting believers. On day 1,290 (Daniel 12:11), I believe the 6th vial will be poured out preparing the way of the kings of the east (Revelation 16:12). It may then take about 45 days for the Antichrist and all the kings of the earth to gather all of their armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14). I believe Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 are the same blessing, so that we must wait until the 1,335th day for Christ to return to us, when he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Originally posted by Rize
...You need to show that the tribulation includes the wrath of God...

I personally can't find any verse which separates the 7 vials of God's wrath from the tribulation. I believe God's wrath in the 7 vials is the 3rd and final stage of the tribulation, the 7 seals and 7 trumpets being the 1st and 2nd stages.

Note that God's "wrath" against the wicked isn't separated from "tribulation" brought against them (Romans 2:8-9), that God's judgment against the wicked can bring "great tribulation" (Revelation 2:22), and that God's retribution against those who harm Christians can be called "tribulation" (2 Thessalonians 1:6).

Originally posted by Rize
...The book of Daniel may very well only be talking about the Jews...

Does "thy people" in Daniel 12:1 necessarily exclude Gentiles? Is "thy God" in Daniel 10:12 exclusive to Jews? Couldn't all Gentile believers say to Daniel as Ruth said to Naomi: "Thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16)? "There is one body, and... one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4, 6); "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Originally posted by Rize
...As for Jesus' warning inbetween the 6th and 7th bowls, he is speaking to the reader not to people on earth...

In your view, how are these mutually exclusive? Can't Jesus be speaking to those on the earth at that time? Can't Revelation 16:15 be the same blessing as Daniel 12:12, given on the 1290th day?

 

[Rize]

Originally posted by postrib
In your view, why would it be odd for the trumpets to start before the abomination of desolation?

Because the trumpets occur after the 7th seal but are joined to the seal events by the clear verses in Revelation 8:1-2.  This wouldn't matter if Mathew 24 didn't establish the Anti-Christ's reign and the abomination of desolation at about the 4th seal (and continuing into the 5th seal). 

Originally posted by postrib
Can't the 144,000 who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4) be Christians?

No.  I wouldn't take these to be Christians.  They are 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel (with each tribe named).  There is no language here that makes me believe that this doesn't refer to actual Jews (especially in light of the fact that the Jews will play a major role in end time events as revealed by OT prophecy).

Originally posted by postrib
Could the two witnesses be killed near the end of the tribulation? Could the 1,260 days of their sending plagues on the earth (Revelation 11:3-6) coincide with the 42 months of the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 13:5)?

It could represent the second half of the tribulation, yes.  Or the first half, or a period that is in between (though the 1260 days language seems to suggest one half or the other).

Originally posted by postrib
From the time he commits the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31, 36), I believe the Antichrist is given 1,260 days to rule and persecute believers (compare Revelation 13:5), after which I believe vials 1-5 (Revelation 16) will be poured out on his kingdom over a period of 30 days, during which time we don't see him persecuting believers. On day 1,290 (Daniel 12:11), I believe the 6th vial will be poured out preparing the way of the kings of the east (Revelation 16:12). It may then take about 45 days for the Antichrist and all the kings of the earth to gather all of their armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14). I believe Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 are the same blessing, so that we must wait until the 1,335th day for Christ to return to us, when he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

It may be the same "blessing".  And it may refer only to the Jews (who I don't believe will be raptured before God's wrath).

Originally posted by postrib
I personally can't find any verse which separates the 7 vials of God's wrath from the tribulation. I believe God's wrath in the 7 vials is the 3rd and final stage of the tribulation, the 7 seals and 7 trumpets being the 1st and 2nd stages.

How do you explain the sign in the sun moon and stars of the sixth seal which says that the Day of the Lord's wrath has come?  And the parallel in Mathew 24 that says the same thing?  And the scripture in 2 Thess. 2 which pegs the rapture immediately before this Day of the Lord?  There is a harvest of the earth immediately before the harvesting of the grapes of wrath in Revelation 14:14-20.  That seems like a good indication to me.

Originally posted by postrib
Note that God's "wrath" against the wicked isn't separated from "tribulation" brought against them (Romans 2:8-9), that God's judgment against the wicked can bring "great tribulation" (Revelation 2:22), and that God's retribution against those who harm Christians can be called "tribulation" (2 Thessalonians 1:6).

The verses in Romans are to general to be meaningful.  The "great tribulation" in Revelation 2:22 lacks the article "the" (Strong's # 06) and 2 Thessalonians 1:6 has the same problem.  This is not the great tribulation, but merely great tribulation or tribulation.  Certainly the wicked will be persecuted by God's wrath, but the great tribulation is Satan's wrath (Revelation 12:17).

Originally posted by postrib
Does "thy people" in Daniel 12:1 necessarily exclude Gentiles? Is "thy God" in Daniel 10:12 exclusive to Jews? Couldn't all Gentile believers say to Daniel as Ruth said to Naomi: "Thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16)? "There is one body, and... one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4, 6); "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

I didn't say that it definitely did, I just said that it's a good possibility!

Originally posted by postrib
In your view, how are these mutually exclusive? Can't Jesus be speaking to those on the earth at that time? Can't Revelation 16:15 be the same blessing as Daniel 12:12, given on the 1290th day?

It could be either.  But I believe that there will be Jews on the earth during God's wrath (they are protected by their seal though; there may also be unprotected Jews, these being the ones who must persevere until the end).

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Rize
...This wouldn't matter if Mathew 24 didn't establish the Anti-Christ's reign and the abomination of desolation at about the 4th seal...

In your view, how does Matthew 24 require that the AOD be at the 4th seal?

Originally posted by Rize
...I wouldn't take these to be Christians...

Why wouldn't you take those who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4) to be Christians?

Originally posted by Rize
...from every tribe...

Why can't the 144,000 be Christians and members of the 12 tribes at the same time? Isn't the Apostle Paul a Christian and a member of the tribe of Benjamin at the same time: "For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1), and isn't the Apostle Barnabas a Christian and "a Levite" at the same time (Acts 4:36)?

Originally posted by Rize
...a harvest of the earth...

I think that Revelation 14:14-16 may not be a rapture/resurrection: it could possibly be Jesus harvesting into heaven the souls of those Christians dying under the Antichrist for not taking the mark:

"They have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Revelation 14:11-16).

 

[Rize]

Originally posted by postrib
In your view, how does Matthew 24 require that the AOD be at the 4th seal?

Why wouldn't you take those who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4) to be Christians?

Because they occur at the same point in the chronology.  False Christs, wars, famines, persecution, sign in the sun moon stars, start of God's wrath.

And the 144,000 are Christians.  Jewish Christians.  That is the point.  The Jewish people are going to be handled differently in the end-times.  God has some promises to them that must be fulfilled.

Have you read Van Kampen's "The Sign" ?

Originally posted by postrib
I think that Revelation 14:14-16 may not be a rapture/resurrection: it could possibly be Jesus harvesting into heaven the souls of those Christians dying under the Antichrist for not taking the mark:

I don't see how you could mistake the symbols.  The earth is ripe.  The hour of the harvest has come!  And this is, just as I would expect, followed by the harvesting of the grapes of wrath!  All of this immediately after the persecution by Anti-Christ.

I suppose it could be either, but I believe that my position makes a whole lot more sense.

When preaching post-trib verses pre-trib, it's easy to claim your own position by attacking the weak pre-trib position.  But with pre-wrath, you better present some evidence to support your position rather than attack mine!  Why not start a post-trib (post 7 year) vs. pre-wrath thread and present the evidence which goes directly for the post-trib and against pre-wrath?  Be sure to check multiple translations for exact wording (such as has come verses came after the 7th trumpet).

I have to go for now.  Be back later on tonight.

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Rize
...they occur at the same point in the chronology... 

In your view, what requires that the AOD occur at the same point in the chronology as the 4th seal?

Originally posted by Rize
...And the 144,000 are Christians. Jewish Christians... 

Can't Jewish Christians like the Apostle Paul be part of the church? "I am verily a man which am a Jew" (Acts 22:3).

Originally posted by Rize
...Have you read Van Kampen's "The Sign"?... 

No. What does it say?

Originally posted by Rize
...the grapes of wrath...

I think that the treading of the winepress in Revelation 14:19-20 may possibly not be the same as the treading which will be done by Jesus himself at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15). Revelation 14:19-20 may be picturing an initial wave of bloody persecution by the Antichrist against all his enemies once he has committed the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem and instituted the mark of the beast and the worship of his image (Revelation 14:9-20), for his False Prophet will "cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Revelation 13:15). The 200 mile radius from Jerusalem may indicate that the initial wave of killings will occur throughout Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.

Revelation 14:19-20 may picture the initial wave of killings by the forces of the Antichrist as "the winepress of the wrath of God" in the same way that Jeremiah pictured the destruction of ancient Judah by the forces of Babylon by saying "The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress" (Lamentations 1:15). In his wrath, God may allow the Antichrist's forces to commit this slaughter throughout Israel and the surrounding countries just as in his wrath against "Babylon" (Revelation 16:19) God will allow the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire (Revelation 17:12) to burn "Babylon" with fire: "These shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will" (Revelation 17:16-17).

For those faithful Christians who are killed in the initial wave of killings by the Antichrist, I believe their death will in no way be God's wrath against them, but that they will even be blessed in their death, for their spirits will be reaped by Christ himself into heaven (Revelation 14:13-16, compare 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21). But for the unbelievers who die in the same wave of killings, it will be God's wrath against them (Revelation 14:19-20).

I believe that the Antichrist will kill many unbelievers who will refuse to worship him, just as tyrants throughout history have always killed unbelievers for refusing to submit to them.

Originally posted by Rize
...All of this immediately after the persecution by Anti-Christ...

If you believe that the rapture had to be at the 6th seal, and the trumpets and vials had to occur between the rapture and Armageddon, then how could the treading of the winepress at Armageddon (Revelation 19:15) be immediately after the persecution by the Antichrist?

 

[Rize]

Originally posted by postrib
In your view, what requires that the AOD occur at the same point in the chronology as the 4th seal?

The abomination of desolation occurs after the famine in Jesus chronology.  In the Revelation 7 seals progression, right after the famine you have the persecution of a 4th of the earth by sword, famine and death/plague, and by the "wild beasts of the earth".  I'm taking this to be the Anti-Christ's persecution.  I'm also assuming that he will not begin persecuting until the abomination of desolation (Jesus says, when you see the AoD, run for the hills).  That is why I'm placing the events of the 4th seal after the mid point (or at the point at the earliest).

Originally posted by postrib
Can't Jewish Christians like the Apostle Paul be part of the church? "I am verily a man which am a Jew" (Acts 22:3).

Yes they are part of the church.  However, Israel will be getting special treatment during the 70th week of Daniel (the "trib" week, though the trib is only the second half of the week technically).  I don't believe that they will be raptured with the rest of us though I can't support that scripturally at the moment (I figure it's somewhere in Daniel).  Perhaps it'll just be the 144,000 who are specially marked that stay and any normal Christian Jews will go with the rest of the Christians.  That would leave the 144,000 sealed Jews and uncoverted Jews.

Originally posted by postrib
No. What does it say?

It's a very large book and I'm not done reading it.  You'll find it very interesting though.  It is a comprehensive (and very compelling imo) interpretation of end times events based around the pre-wrath rapture (which obviously is defended in great detail in the book).  I can't say I agree with every conclusion of the book (especially when he leaves scripture), but his scriptural basis for a time line seems rock solid so far. 

Originally posted by postrib
I think that the treading of the winepress in Revelation 14:19-20 may possibly not be the same as the treading which will be done by Jesus himself at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15). Revelation 14:19-20 may be picturing an initial wave of bloody persecution by the Antichrist against all his enemies once he has committed the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem and instituted the mark of the beast and the worship of his image (Revelation 14:9-20), for his False Prophet will "cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Revelation 13:15). The 200 mile radius from Jerusalem may indicate that the initial wave of killings will occur throughout Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.

Revelation 14:19-20 may picture the initial wave of killings by the forces of the Antichrist as "the winepress of the wrath of God" in the same way that Jeremiah pictured the destruction of ancient Judah by the forces of Babylon by saying "The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress" (Lamentations 1:15). In his wrath, God may allow the Antichrist's forces to commit this slaughter throughout Israel and the surrounding countries just as in his wrath against "Babylon" (Revelation 16:19) God will allow the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire (Revelation 17:12) to burn "Babylon" with fire: "These shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will" (Revelation 17:16-17).

For those faithful Christians who are killed in the initial wave of killings by the Antichrist, I believe their death will in no way be God's wrath against them, but that they will even be blessed in their death, for their spirits will be reaped by Christ himself into heaven (Revelation 14:13-16, compare 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21). But for the unbelievers who die in the same wave of killings, it will be God's wrath against them (Revelation 14:19-20).

I believe that the Antichrist will kill many unbelievers who will refuse to worship him, just as tyrants throughout history have always killed unbelievers for refusing to submit to them.

I don't think Jesus will retread the winepress of God's wrath at Armageddon (and I believe that his coming begins at the rapture which will occur just before the first trumpet; Jesus' presence is in the wrath of God; that is part of his coming imo).  Read Rev 19:11-16.  It does not really imply that Jesus came down from heaven at this point.  It merely says that John saw heaven open and there before him... In other words, it's yet another sign.  After saying a few truths about Jesus, some end time prophecy is given (verse 14 and 15), then another basic truth is given half-way through verse 15 (the winepress of fury).  Try some different translations and see what you get.

Again, why not paste your own timeline instead of giving us bits and peices.  It's hard to see the whole thing like that.  You can just go really general.  Tell us which order the chapters go in, and tell us where anything overlaps (if it does).

As for the grapes of wrath and slaughter by anti-christ.  Possibly so.  The harvest may not be the rapture (though I think it is).  Even so, this doesn't break the time-line.  The anti-christ can persecute normal people of the earth, or non-Christians who don't want to adhere to the one religion (perhaps Muslims).  There will be plenty of people for the AC to take his wrath out on after God's wrath begins.  God may use his wrath against the remaining people as his own (after the rapture I mean). 

Originally posted by postrib
If you believe that the rapture had to be at the 6th seal, and the trumpets and vials had to occur between the rapture and Armageddon, then how could the treading of the winepress at Armageddon (Revelation 19:15) be immediately after the persecution by the Antichrist?

I don't think that winepress is treaded at armageddon as I hinted at above.  John is simply revealing that Jesus is the one who treads that wine press.  It is being tread throughout the wrath of God.  The passage in Rev 14:17-20 just tells me when He begins treading it (right after the rapture 14:14-16) which goes with 2 Thessalonians 2, Mathew 24 and Revelation 6 and 7.

What reason is there that the rapture won't occur at some unknown portion of the 2nd 3 1/2 years and initiate God's day of the Lord wrath?

Come on, I want something concrete.  If there is a contradiction bring it on!   Otherwise, the support of so many passages simply cannot be ignored (by me).  The rapture appears to happen right before the day of the Lord begins, and the day of the Lord seems to begin with the trumpets.  It's so clear to me.  Can you make it unclear?

 

[66books]

dear rize and postrib
a most intense discussion.i like it.just thought about the 360 day year used for time frame cycle.the difference between summer and winter.dont say six months.try 27 degrees .remember the prophecy about the oceans in the end times.sloshing like a drunkered ,i think was the discription.mens hearts failing them at what is happening and that.
god will shorten the days for no man would survive.god will speed up the planet and correct cycle to bring earth to a 360 day year .guess that would splain the ocean behavior.wouldnt be to hard for god.he made us in seven literal days.something upset the earth which is why we can never tell when he will return but we are told of special sabbaths and ive got a gut feeling that spring will be a possibility .same as moses time to exit egypt.
great thread guys.
b.i.c
66books

 

[Rize]

Interesting.

Funny thing is if God did change the rotation of the earth, if all kinds of crazy things were going on, we might not even notice   By the seventh year, things would only be off by 26 days or so (seasons).

I guess astronomers would notice though.

I think the 360 day year detail will just confound some people and we'll still be left with 365 1/4 day solar years.

Btw, when God talked about cutting the days short, I think he was specifically referring to the Anti-Christ's persecution of Christians.

Perhaps not.

In any case, I can at least assure everyone that I by no means think of my time line as iron clad.  I'll be prepared for not being raptured if indeed I am wrong.  The anti-christ's persecution is going to be the bad thing and I'm quite certain we'll be going through that.  The rest is cake in comparison.  God will be pouring out calamity and the AC will be on the run whether we're raptured or not.

 

[postrib]

9th February 2003 at 06:41 AM Rize said this in Post #10
...The abomination of desolation occurs after the famine in Jesus chronology...

And after the earthquakes (Revelation 6:12).

9th February 2003 at 06:41 AM Rize said this in Post #10
...the persecution of a 4th of the earth by sword, famine and death/plague, and by the "wild beasts of the earth".  I'm taking this to be the Anti-Christ's persecution...

I believe the war and famine of the seals are before the abomination of desolation, just as in Matthew 24.

9th February 2003 at 06:41 AM Rize said this in Post #10
...it'll just be the 144,000 who are specially marked that stay...

Note that even after the 144,000 are in heaven (Revelation 14:1-4) there are some of us Christians still on the earth being persecuted (Revelation 14:12-13).

9th February 2003 at 06:41 AM Rize said this in Post #10
...I don't think Jesus will retread the winepress of God's wrath at Armageddon ...

I believe that the first time Jesus will tread the winepress will be at Armageddon (Revelation 19:15).

9th February 2003 at 06:41 AM Rize said this in Post #10
...his coming begins at the rapture which will occur just before the first trumpet...

Note that no coming of Christ is shown before Revelation 19.

9th February 2003 at 06:41 AM Rize said this in Post #10
...Rev 14:17-20 just tells me when He begins treading it...

Note that it doesn't say that Jesus will tread the winepress of Revelation 14.

9th February 2003 at 06:41 AM Rize said this in Post #10
...the rapture 14:14-16...

I think that Revelation 14:14-16 may not be a rapture/resurrection: it could possibly be Jesus harvesting into heaven the souls of those Christians dying under the Antichrist for not taking the mark (Revelation 14:11-16).

 

[Rize]

Today at 05:20 PM postrib said this in Post #13

And after the earthquakes (Revelation 6:12).

Mathew 24:29 -- "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken"

Sounds like an earthquake to me.

Today at 05:20 PM postrib said this in Post #13

I believe the war and famine of the seals are before the abomination of desolation, just as in Matthew 24.

As do I.  But I also believe that the day of the Lord begins just after the sign in the sun, moon and stars and Jesus coming to rapture the church just as He said.

Today at 05:20 PM postrib said this in Post #13

Note that even after the 144,000 are in heaven (Revelation 14:1-4) there are some of us Christians still on the earth being persecuted (Revelation 14:12-13).

Isn't mount Zion what the city of Jeruselum is built on?  Van Kampen makes a good case that Jesus is on earth right there and the 144,000 are still on earth with him.  The reason they are sealed is for protection against the wrath of God.  The reason no Christians are sealed is becuase we're not going to be here for God's wrath.  Revelation 14:12-13 calls for the perseverance of hte saints becuase we will be here for the Anti-Christ's persecution.  But note that something occurs in Rev 14:14-16 which is very rapture like.

Today at 05:20 PM postrib said this in Post #13

I believe that the first time Jesus will tread the winepress will be at Armageddon (Revelation 19:15).

Of course you do.  Because that's when you believe the Day of the Lord starts.

Van Kampen presents strong evidence that there will be a gathering of armies at Israel at two points before Armageddon.  Once at the mid point of the 7 years, once just before the wrath of God (and rapture) and once more for Armageddon.  He argues that Rev 14:17-20 represents the second of these three gatherings (the first one resulting in persecution).  I'm not going to reproduce is whole argument here though.  Apparently, there is a parallel occurance of such a thing in the OT somewhere.  I'll see if I can dig up the reference.

Today at 05:20 PM postrib said this in Post #13

Note that no coming of Christ is shown before Revelation 19.

Note that the sign of Jesus coming is absent in Revelation 19 (and occurs long before at the 6th seal just before the wrath of God (or something that sure looks a lot like it) begins).

Additionally, Jesus is on mount Zion in chapter 14.  Also, an argument can be made that the "mighty angel" in Revelation 10 is actually Jesus (note most angels do not have wings and look just like people).  Basically, the symbols associated with this angel are also associated with Jesus and in the OT, Jesus is represented as an angel at times.  Only Jesus was worth to open the large scroll with the seven seals, and this "mighty angel" comes down with the small scroll open.

Today at 05:20 PM postrib said this in Post #13

Note that it doesn't say that Jesus will tread the winepress of Revelation 14.

So?   There is no sign of Jesus coming in Revelation 19 (and it is present in Revelation 6).

Today at 05:20 PM postrib said this in Post #13

I think that Revelation 14:14-16 may not be a rapture/resurrection: it could possibly be Jesus harvesting into heaven the souls of those Christians dying under the Antichrist for not taking the mark (Revelation 14:11-16).

Come on.  Souls are going to be dying left and right.  He only swings the sickle once.  "the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.'  So he who was seated on the cloud [one like a son of man] swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."

This is a one time event.  It's extremely rapture like and again, it occurs just before the trampling of the winepress of God's wrath.  It's very suggestive since the rapture occurs just before the Day of the Lord everywhere else as well.

 

[postrib]

12th February 2003 at 06:17 AM Rize said this in Post #14
...Sounds like an earthquake to me...

Note that Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't mention the earthquake of the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12); it only refers to the powers of "the heavens" being shaken. Could the earthquake of the 6th seal be included in the earthquakes of Matthew 24:7, and could the war and famine of the 2nd and 3rd seals (Revelation 6:3-6) be included in the wars and famines of Matthew 24:6-7, which all occur prior to the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15, just as the 6th seal in Revelation 6 occurs before the rule of the Antichrist in Revelation 13?

Could the fearful signs in the sun, moon, and stars in the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) be the "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (Luke 21:11) which will occur before the 42-month treading down of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2) during the 42-month reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5)?

12th February 2003 at 06:17 AM Rize said this in Post #14
...The reason they are sealed is for protection against the wrath of God...

Does Revelation say the trumpets of the tribulation are "wrath"? Isn't it true that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation?

The 144,000 are sealed probably because they are the firstfruits of the church: "A Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand... These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth... being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14:1, 4). It's possible God deals with them as he had the firstfruits dealt with in the OT: "As for the oblation of the firstfruits, ye shall offer them unto the LORD: but they shall not be burnt on the altar for a sweet savour" (Leviticus 2:12), that is, they are not to suffer the fiery trial (1 Peter 4:12-13) as the rest of the church on the earth will.

I believe Revelation 14 shows the 144,000 "before the throne of God" in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5) while other of us Christians are still suffering and dying on the earth under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13).

12th February 2003 at 06:17 AM Rize said this in Post #14
...something occurs in Rev 14:14-16 which is very rapture like...

Again, I think that Revelation 14:14-16 may not be a rapture/resurrection: it could possibly be a symbolic picture of Jesus harvesting into heaven the souls of those Christians dying under the Antichrist for not taking the mark:

"They have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Revelation 14:11-16).

Note that the symbolic picture of Revelation 14:16 doesn't require an instantaneous or only a single thrusting of the sickle, just as the parable of Mark 4:26-29 doesn't require an instantaneous or only a single putting in of the sickle.

12th February 2003 at 06:17 AM Rize said this in Post #14
...the sign of Jesus coming is absent in Revelation 19...

Note that nothing requires that Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 be two different comings of Christ, for in Revelation John doesn't mention many of the elements of the rapture and 2nd coming that are mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, such as the shout or the voice of the archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:16), or the resurrection of all believers at the sounding of a trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16), or the gathering together of the saints by angels (Matthew 24:31), or Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4), so it should not be surprising that the specific signs of Matthew 24:29 aren't mentioned in connection with Revelation 19 either. But in Revelation 19 John clearly shows Jesus coming, as he does not anywhere else in Revelation, and both Jesus and Paul say the rapture will happen at Jesus' coming (Matthew 24:29-37, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:23), and nowhere does the Bible refer to a 3rd coming of Christ.

12th February 2003 at 06:17 AM Rize said this in Post #14
...the "mighty angel" in Revelation 10 is actually Jesus...

Note that Revelation 10 refers not to Christ but to "another mighty angel" (verses 1, 5, 8, 9, 10). Christ is not an angel (Hebrews 1:5).

If you believe Revelation 10 is a coming of Christ, then do you believe there will be a 4th coming of Christ: 1st his Birth, 2nd a pre-wrath coming, 3rd a Revelation 10 coming, and 4th his Revelation 19 coming? Does the Bible anywhere refer to more than one future "coming" of Christ?

12th February 2003 at 06:17 AM Rize said this in Post #14
...it occurs just before the trampling of the winepress of God's wrath...

I think that the treading of the winepress in Revelation 14:19-20 may possibly not be the same as the treading which will be done by Jesus himself at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15). Revelation 14:19-20 may be picturing an initial wave of bloody persecution by the Antichrist.

 

[Rize]

You're taking Revelation sequentially and I see no reason to do so.  In fact, I see many reasons not to do so.  There are many portions of Revelation that clearly cannot be chronological.  I believe that the section describing the Anti-Christ's persecution (the beast rather) is not chronologically after the trumpet judgments.

The 7 vials are called the last plagues which imples that the 7 trumpets were the first.

Why do you keep talking about the 144,000 as if they are the church?  They are clearly Jewish.  They are not just the church.  They may be Jewish members of the church, but they are distinguished.

I know what you believe.  You keep repeating it, but you're not addressing my reasons for believing what I believe (and not what you believe).

I'm just not seeing this post-trib rapture.  Jesus specifically said that it would be right after the sign in the sun moon and stars.  That sign is unmistakable in Revelation.  I'm surely not going to mistake it.  You can if you want

Does the Bible anywhere refer to more than one future "coming" of Christ?

Did the OT refer to more than one coming of Christ?  Yet we know there will be at least a second one.

We need to confine this to a single thread somewhere.  We're repeating ourselves which is getting frusterating.

 

[postrib]

15th February 2003 at 09:39 AM Rize said this in Post #16
...You're taking Revelation sequentially...

I personally believe that Revelation is sequential insofar as the trumpets are subsequent to the seals, for the 7 angels aren't given the 7 trumpets until after the 7th seal has been opened (Revelation 8:1-2, 6-7), and insofar as the vials are subsequent to the trumpets; they could come out of the 7th trumpet's temple opening (Revelation 11:15, 19; 15:5-6).

I believe that the two witnesses could be alive during the same 1,260 days (Revelation 11:3) that the Antichrist will rule (Revelation 13:5), so that chapters 11 to 14 could be read as a unit -- all together they could describe the events of the Antichrist's rule.

15th February 2003 at 09:39 AM Rize said this in Post #16
...The 7 vials are called the last plagues which imples that the 7 trumpets were the first...

I believe the only prior "plagues" (plege) from God himself were those caused by the two witnesses (Revelation 11:6), which plagues we don't see being directed at us Christians in any way.

Note that the only seal or trumpet where "plagues" (plege) is mentioned is the 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:20), and nothing says or requires that the 6th trumpet be God's wrath, for it is the work of the army of the fallen angels who were "bound" in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-16).

15th February 2003 at 09:39 AM Rize said this in Post #16
...Why do you keep talking about the 144,000 as if they are the church?...

Note that the 144,000 are Christians who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

15th February 2003 at 09:39 AM Rize said this in Post #16
...They are clearly Jewish...

Can't Jewish Christians like the Apostle Paul be part of the church? "I am verily a man which am a Jew" (Acts 22:3).

15th February 2003 at 09:39 AM Rize said this in Post #16
...they are distinguished...

Note that the 144,000 will go through all of the seals and at least through the first 5 trumpets (Revelation 9:4; 7:3).

I believe Revelation 14 shows the 144,000 "before the throne of God" in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5) while other of us Christians are still suffering and dying on the earth under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13).

15th February 2003 at 09:39 AM Rize said this in Post #16
...I'm just not seeing this post-trib rapture...

Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after (post) the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31)?

15th February 2003 at 09:39 AM Rize said this in Post #16
...Jesus specifically said that it would be right after the sign in the sun moon and stars.  That sign is unmistakable in Revelation...

The fact that the sun is darkened at the 6th seal may not be prima facie evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as in Matthew 24:29, for the sun is equally darkened in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2). So the sun may be darkened more than once: twice in the tribulation and then again after the tribulation.

Also, at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all (Matthew 24:29). So I think the 6th seal event may not be the same event as the one after the tribulation.

We know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So the 6th seal meteoritic event may not be the same as the one after the tribulation.

15th February 2003 at 09:39 AM Rize said this in Post #16
...Did the OT refer to more than one coming of Christ?...

Note that while the Old Testament did distinguish between the two comings of Christ: the one in Isaiah 53 where he dies, and the one in Zechariah 14 where he comes to conquer and rule, neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament distinguishes between the rapture and the 2nd coming, that is, neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament teaches a 3rd coming of Christ.

I believe that all of the following passages speak of the same rapture at the same coming:

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

Note that there is nothing in the New Testament or the Old Testament that teaches or requires that the rapture be separate from the 2nd coming.

 

[Rize]

Ok.  We are reading Revelation about the same then.  The beast's persecution is not necessarily after the 7 trumpets.  I also think that the 7th trumpet innitiates the bowl judgments.

And no, nothing intrinsically says that the trumpets are God's wrath except that God's wrath apparently was about to begin (or had already come) at the sixth seal, and the trumpets look suspiciously like judgments.

I certainly don't see any reason not to think they are judgments.

So you think that the 144,000 are Christians?  Ok.  That's quite possible and fair.  However, they are also clearly Jewish.  12,000 from each tribe, and regardless, their seals separate them from those who aren't among their number.  They wouldn't be outside the church, but an exceptional group within the church.

As for the 144,000 being in Heaven in Revelation 14:1-5, that is not clear at all.  The Bible says that they are on mount zion with the Lamb.  Mount zion is on earth (it is the mountain/hill that jeruselum is primarily built on).  This would place Jesus on earth well before armageddon and is more consistant with the pre-wrath understanding than post-trib understanding.

As for "not seeing the post-trib rapture", I meant post 7 year rapture.  I believe that the rapture will cut-short the persecution of Christians and in that respect it will be post-trib.

The sun, moon and stars are not merely "darkned" in Revelation 6:13.  The exact same descriptive language from the Old Testament and New Testament Day of the Lord passages is used.  In the 5th trumpet, the heavenly lights merely cease to give a 1/3 of their light.

Here are relevant citations:  Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Mathew 24:29, Isaiah 34:4, and again, the people who are complaining that the day of the lords wrath has come.  All of this is overwhelming evidence to support that the day of the Lord is about to occur at any moment.  Yes, you can twist away from it, but why would you want to do that?  What scripture is making you disregard this?  Is it the apparently first "second" coming of Christ in Revelation 19?  That is more weak than this which you are trying to disregard (especially in light of Jesus being on mount zion (Jeruselum) in Chapter 14). 

Read The Sign.

As for multiple comings:  the scripture teaches that Jesus will come and rapture the saints and the day of the Lord will begin.  That is exactly what happens in Revelation 6, 7 and 8.  We see the sign of the DotL, we see a great multitude in heaven that come out of the tribulation, and we see the 7th seal broken which initiates the trumpets that look very suspiciously like judgments of wrath against the earth.  Throughout this pariousia of Christ, there are various activities, but the pariousia never does end.  Christ is always present whether in person or in the form of judgments upon the earth (trumpets/bowls etc.).

I completely agree that there will not be multiple second comings.  The rapture will occur just before the second coming.  Where we disagree is what is a more significant indicator that Christ has come.  Is it the vision of John who sees Christ in Revelation 19, or is it the explicit signs Jesus told us to watch for that occur in Revelation 6?

I choose Revelation 6.  That understanding guides my interpretation of the rest of Revelation just as your understanding guides your interpretation of the rest of Revelation.  The thing is, my interpretation seems to be a lot more natural than yours.

 

[postrib]

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...The beast's persecution is not necessarily after the 7 trumpets...

Does anything say or require that it is before them?

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...you think that the 144,000 are Christians?...

Yes. What other religion would people be who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4)?

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...an exceptional group within the church...

Yes, and note again that they will go through all of the seals and at least through the first 5 trumpets (Revelation 9:4; 7:3). I believe Revelation 14 later shows them "before the throne of God" in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5) while other of us Christians are still suffering and dying on the earth under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13).

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...Mount zion is on earth...

I believe there is a heavenly mount Sion and Jerusalem which we have already come to in a spiritual sense: "Ye are come (perfect tense in the Greek) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" (Hebrews 12:22). Compare: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...I believe that the rapture will cut-short the persecution of Christians...

Because of Daniel 12:11-12, I believe that from the abomination of desolation until Jesus comes we'll have to wait 1,335 days, and that Matthew 24:22 is saying if it went much longer than that nobody would survive.

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...In the 5th trumpet, the heavenly lights merely cease to give a 1/3 of their light...

Note that the 5th trumpet of Revelation 9:1-12 doesn't refer to a darkening by only a third, and if "the sun and the air were darkened" of Revelation 9:2 doesn't have to be referring to "the sun be darkened" of Matthew 24:29, then "the sun became black as sackcloth of hair" (Revelation 6:12) doesn't have to be referring to "the sun be darkened" of Matthew 24:29.

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...the people who are complaining that the day of the lords wrath has come...

I think that Revelation 6:16-17 could be the terrified hyperbole of the unsaved, that they can't actually see the face of the Father sitting on his throne in heaven (Revelation 5:7), and that the 6th seal may not actually be God's wrath. Note that those in heaven don't say God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 16:1).

I think John could be seeing a cataclysmic event that precedes the trumpets, which may be an historically unprecedented volcanic eruption which will trigger devastating earthquakes all around the world, and which will fill the atmosphere with ash, blocking the light from the sun and making the moon appear blood red. I think this could be accompanied (possibly triggered) by a storm of large meteorites, "falling stars," which will hit the ground, and atmospheric explosions of those which don't make it to the ground.

When they see these horrors, the unsaved will no doubt believe they're all going to die, as "seeing the face of God" means death (Exodus 33:20), and that these events are God's wrath. But God's wrath may not be come in the 6th seal, nor in the 7th, nor in the 7 trumpets. God's wrath may not be come until the final stage of the great tribulation, the 7 vials (Revelation 16), which aren't directed at believers; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12).

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...we see a great multitude in heaven...

I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...the trumpets that look very suspiciously like judgments of wrath against the earth...

Note that just as Jesus' "opening" of the seals (Revelation 6:1) doesn't require that they be God's wrath, so the angels "sounding" of the trumpets (Revelation 8:7) doesn't require that they be God's wrath.

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...The rapture will occur just before the second coming...

I believe the rapture cannot occur until the 2nd coming:

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

Today at 04:40 AM Rize said this in Post #18
...the explicit signs Jesus told us to watch for that occur in Revelation 6...

Note once more that the fact that the sun is darkened at the 6th seal may not be prima facie evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as in Matthew 24:29, for the sun is equally darkened in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2). So the sun may be darkened more than once: twice in the tribulation and then again after the tribulation.

Also, at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all (Matthew 24:29). So I think the 6th seal event may not be the same event as the one after the tribulation.

We know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So the 6th seal meteoritic event may not be the same as the one after the tribulation.

 

[Rize]

I will paraphrase what you said below postrib

postrib said: Does anything say or require that [the beast's persecution] is before [the trumpets]?

Me: if the day of the Lord has begun and the rapture has occured, then there is no reason not to view the trumpets as judgments.  The pre-wrath rapture does not rely on viewing the trumpets as judgments, but the trumpets are viewed as judgments merely because the pre-wrath position (occuring at the 6th seal) is so crystal clear.

postrib said: The 144,000 are Christians because of Revelation 14:4).

Me: What if they only became Christians when they were sealed?  That is, what if they were not Christians until they saw the coming of Jesus?  The last chapter of Daniel clearly shows that there will be Jews on earth throughout the end of the tribulation.  So, even in the pre-wrath view, their are still Jews here.  Since Jewish Christians would have been raptured, it is the pre-wrath assumption that the Jews, at the rapture, are not Christian.  However, they have rejected the Anti-Christ because of his descration of hte temple and so they are not marked either.

postrib said: I believe that there is a heavenly mount zion as well.

Me: Jesus is actually standing on mount zion here.  Also, if you read The Sign by Van Kampen, you will see that there is much compelling reason to think that Jesus is on the earthly mount Zion here.  Jesus is suposed to take the Jews who are hiding in Petra and march them to Jeruselem to take the city back from Anti-Christ (this would be occuring immediately after the 7th trumpet, but before the bowl judgments).

postrib said: Daniel 12:11-12 indicates that Christians will be on earth all the way until the end of the 7 years + 30 days + 40 days.

Me: This does not preserve the unknown day and hour of the rapture (yes I know you can twist that scripture to mean something else).  Post-wrathers believe that the book of Daniel only concerns the Jews who have rejected Anti-Christ yet not accepted Christ before the rapture. 

postrib said: I don't think that the sign in the sun, moon and stars, in Mathew 24:29 matches up with the sign in Revelation 6:12.  The sun is also darkened in the 5th trumpet and the exact language doesn't match up.

Me: The sign of the day of the Lord exactly matches up to Revelation 6:12.  In Mathew 24:29, Jesus' sign says that the sun is darkened and the moon does not giver her light, but Joel 2:31, which also speaks of the Day of the Lord, says exactly what Revelation 6:12 says (i.e. that the sun will be darkened and the moon will be turned to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of hte Lord).  Revelation 6:12 is the start of the Day of the Lord.  To ignore this is to ignore scripture.  Sorry that I didn't quote Joel before.  Please see Jesus Servants new pre-wrath/post-trib thread for more details.

postrib said: The great multitude that came out of the great tribulation (revelation 7:9,14) will be the Christians who enter the tribulation and die from the various calamities that occur in the first 6 seals.

Me: Ok, but if the "great tribulation" refers to the Anti-Christ's persecution, then doesn't this suggest that the Anti-Christ's persection has at least started?  Anyway, this great multitude is not clearly identified as the raptured church until the sixth seal is clearly identified as the sign of the Day of the Lord.  The sixth seal makes this great multitude the raptured church, not the other way around.

postrib said: The trumpets are not identified as the wrath of God simply because angels sound them.

Me: I agree.  They are identified as the wrath of God because the day of the Lord began after the sign in the sixth seal (I personally believer tDotL begins exactly at the opening of the 7th seal, but the exact moment isn't important).  Also, their content suggests God's supernatural wrath (numerous meteors, locusts that avoid those with the seal of God, the sixth trumpet which I won't even describe verses war, famine, death by sword, famine, plague and beasts, and martryed saints).

postrib said: I believe that rapture cannot occur until the 2nd coming (where as Rize said it would occur just before).

Me: You misunderstood me.  By just before, I meant like, a minute or two before.  That is, the second coming, the rapture and the day of the Lord are all parts of the same event.  I believe that Christ will appear in the sky, the church will be raptured and the 144,000 Jews will be sealed all at about the same time.  The moment the church is gone the wrath of God will begin against the wicked.