A peadobaptis asking about baptism :)

[godenver1]

Hi brothers and sisters in Christ,

I'm planning on getting married next year. Want to do due diligence before selecting a church for my fiancée and I to attend. I'm trying to understand the Baptist view about baptism more clearly.

I know the basics. I've read got questions which has very Baptist-esque theology on it. I'm just wondering if any can point me to an in depth study/essay about baptism by immersion and about baptism being symbolic rather than a means of grace.

I promise I'm completely open to being converted to baptist if that's what the Bible teaches, and I'll lead my fiancée to do the same.

God bless,

Your brother in Christ godenver

 

[com7fy8]

Some number of Baptists trust that baptism by immersion can symbolically represent the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and that a person has joined Jesus in His death and burial and resurrection. But, I understand, there are Baptists who do not require this outward action, in order for a person to be fully saved; it is considered an act of obedience, though, to Jesus.

What a person does in one's heart is what matters, and our Apostle Paul says we in Jesus "were baptized into His death", in Romans 6:3. But His death was before His burial; so this baptism comes before burial, and therefore would not be outward immersion . . . or burial . . . in water.

My personal understanding is that baptism into Christ's death is spiritual, and includes how a sinner repents, and in one's heart the person joins Jesus on the cross, in His death; this baptism into Christ's death includes how someone joins Jesus in His love which had Him so suffer and die for any and all people. And then we grow in this all-loving love > Matthew 5:46. And this love makes us sweetly pleasing to our Father, like how Jesus on Calvary was "a sweet-smelling aroma" (in Ephesians 5:2).

Even so, a number of Baptists use outward immersion baptism as an opportunity for a new child of God to publicly declare that he or she has gotten saved and intended to follow Jesus. It, then, can be used for giving your testimony before other people; you can even invite friends and family to be present for your baptism and to hear your testimony.

And > Jesus says the one who confesses Him before people will be confessed by Jesus before our Heavenly Father > Matthew 10:32. So, being baptized in front of others can be included in our confessing Jesus before people.

And our Apostle Paul says "we" "first trusted in Christ" > in Ephesians 1:12.

So, I can see that Jesus wants a person to get outwardly baptized after knowingly trusting in Jesus. Even so, the baptism which saves is the baptism of repentance which changes a person to be with Jesus in His death . . . and the love which had Jesus so suffer and die for us >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

By becoming "one spirit with" Jesus, we are so personally and intimately sharing with Him, and in this union we are changed more and more to be and love like Jesus. Ones understand that outward water baptism does not guarantee this will happen.

 

[Jonaitis]

Hi brothers and sisters in Christ,

I'm planning on getting married next year. Want to do due diligence before selecting a church for my fiancée and I to attend. I'm trying to understand the Baptist view about baptism more clearly.

I know the basics. I've read got questions which has very Baptist-esque theology on it. I'm just wondering if any can point me to an in depth study/essay about baptism by immersion and about baptism being symbolic rather than a means of grace.

I promise I'm completely open to being converted to baptist if that's what the Bible teaches, and I'll lead my fiancée to do the same.

God bless,

Your brother in Christ godenver

I don't know many in-depth resources on the mode of baptism, but I know many on the theology behind it. In Reformed Baptist churches, most (if not all) see baptism as a means of grace and not merely a symbol.

If you are interested in beginning your journey in studying the Baptist view, I recommend the following.

Beginner's books:

1. The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology (Revised Edition) by Pascal Denault
2. From Adam to Christ by Nehemiah Coxe and John Owen
3. From Shadow to Substance: The Federal Theology of English Particular Baptists (1642-1702) by Samuel Renihan
4. Covenant Theology: A Reformed Baptist Primer by Douglas Van Dorn
5. The Fatal Flaw by Jeffery Johnson.
6. The Divine Covenants by A.W. Pink

Samuel Renihan just recently published a new book that has been buzzing called "The Mystery of Christ: His Covenant and His Kingdom."

Websites:

1689 Federalism
Contrast

Facebook Group:

Reformed Baptist Fellowship & Theology Forum

 

[JM]

I don't know many in-depth resources on the mode of baptism, but I know many on the theology behind it. In Reformed Baptist churches, most (if not all) see baptism as a means of grace and not merely a symbol.

If you are interested in beginning your journey in studying the Baptist view, I recommend the following.

Beginner's books:

1. The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology (Revised Edition) by Pascal Denault
2. From Adam to Christ by Nehemiah Coxe and John Owen
3. From Shadow to Substance: The Federal Theology of English Particular Baptists (1642-1702) by Samuel Renihan
4. Covenant Theology: A Reformed Baptist Primer by Douglas Van Dorn
5. The Fatal Flaw by Jeffery Johnson.
6. The Divine Covenants by A.W. Pink

Samuel Renihan just recently published a new book that has been buzzing called "The Mystery of Christ: His Covenant and His Kingdom."

Websites:

1689 Federalism
Contrast

Facebook Group:

Reformed Baptist Fellowship & Theology Forum

That's an awfully good list! I own the books in bold and would add Dr. John Gill's work to the list, it's free online...usually.

 

[twin1954]

Hi brothers and sisters in Christ,

I'm planning on getting married next year. Want to do due diligence before selecting a church for my fiancée and I to attend. I'm trying to understand the Baptist view about baptism more clearly.

I know the basics. I've read got questions which has very Baptist-esque theology on it. I'm just wondering if any can point me to an in depth study/essay about baptism by immersion and about baptism being symbolic rather than a means of grace.

I promise I'm completely open to being converted to baptist if that's what the Bible teaches, and I'll lead my fiancée to do the same.

God bless,

Your brother in Christ godenver

Hi brothers and sisters in Christ,

I'm planning on getting married next year. Want to do due diligence before selecting a church for my fiancée and I to attend. I'm trying to understand the Baptist view about baptism more clearly.

I know the basics. I've read got questions which has very Baptist-esque theology on it. I'm just wondering if any can point me to an in depth study/essay about baptism by immersion and about baptism being symbolic rather than a means of grace.

I promise I'm completely open to being converted to baptist if that's what the Bible teaches, and I'll lead my fiancée to do the same.

God bless,

Your brother in Christ godenver

I notice that you identify as Anglican here, therefore I first want to address the Anglican view of baptism.

The 39 Articles do not give a theological reason for retaining infant baptism other than "The Baptism of young children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the institution of Christ". The statement almost certainly comes from Calvin's " Institutes" as explained by Anglican theologians. So the idea that we baptize infants has no real reason except that the 39 Articles tells us to is ridiculous. Our doctrine should always be founded on Scripture alone.

The place in the Scripture explains baptism is found in the first few verses of Rom. 6.

(Rom 6:1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
(Rom 6:2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
(Rom 6:3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(Rom 6:4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

What does this passage say about baptism?

1. Verse 3 tells us first that we were baptized into the death of Christ. It does not say that we were baptized into the church or baptized into the covenant. Whether Paul is speaking here of Spiritual baptism or water baptism really doesn't matter. Either one fits.
2. Verse 4 says that we were buried with Him (Christ Jesus the Lord). How do you bury a person? Certainly not by sprinkling a little dirt in their face. No, you completely cover them ( immerse) them in the ground. There is no other way to bury. The Lord didn't have a little dirt sprinkled on Him, He was put in the grave fully and completely.
3. The rest of verse 4 says that like as Christ was raised up from the dead, meaning as a symbol of His resurrection we are raised from the watery grave to walk in the newness of life.

Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. It is a physical representation of and inward working of the Spirit by faith. Whether it is a Sacrament, or means of grace is a matter for another discussion.

Now Presbyterians base their view of infant baptism on their erroneous view of the Covenants. They hold that the Eternal Covenant of Grace is seen under 2 administrations, the Old Testament and the New. Therefore they surmise, with absolutely no biblical support, that baptism is a continuation of circumcision.

Baptists hold to a very different view of Covenant Theology. We see a progressive revelation of the Covenant made between the 3 Persons of the Godhead before the foundation of the World, ordered in all things and sure, culminating in the New Covenant which is the Covenant of Grace revealed. We do not baptize infants for at least 2 reasons: You can't immerse a baby and we find no baptism in the New Testament except for believers.

I encourage you to read the books that were spoken of in this thread. I hope that I have been of help. twin.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I notice that you identify as Anglican here, therefore I first want to address the Anglican view of baptism.

The 39 Articles do not give a theological reason for retaining infant baptism other than "The Baptism of young children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the institution of Christ". The statement almost certainly comes from Calvin's " Institutes" as explained by Anglican theologians. So the idea that we baptize infants has no real reason except that the 39 Articles tells us to is ridiculous. Our doctrine should always be founded on Scripture alone.

The place in the Scripture explains baptism is found in the first few verses of Rom. 6.

(Rom 6:1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
(Rom 6:2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
(Rom 6:3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(Rom 6:4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

What does this passage say about baptism?

1. Verse 3 tells us first that we were baptized into the death of Christ. It does not say that we were baptized into the church or baptized into the covenant. Whether Paul is speaking here of Spiritual baptism or water baptism really doesn't matter. Either one fits.
2. Verse 4 says that we were buried with Him (Christ Jesus the Lord). How do you bury a person? Certainly not by sprinkling a little dirt in their face. No, you completely cover them ( immerse) them in the ground. There is no other way to bury. The Lord didn't have a little dirt sprinkled on Him, He was put in the grave fully and completely.
3. The rest of verse 4 says that like as Christ was raised up from the dead, meaning as a symbol of His resurrection we are raised from the watery grave to walk in the newness of life.

Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. It is a physical representation of and inward working of the Spirit by faith. Whether it is a Sacrament, or means of grace is a matter for another discussion.

Now Presbyterians base their view of infant baptism on their erroneous view of the Covenants. They hold that the Eternal Covenant of Grace is seen under 2 administrations, the Old Testament and the New. Therefore they surmise, with absolutely no biblical support, that baptism is a continuation of circumcision.

Baptists hold to a very different view of Covenant Theology. We see a progressive revelation of the Covenant made between the 3 Persons of the Godhead before the foundation of the World, ordered in all things and sure, culminating in the New Covenant which is the Covenant of Grace revealed. We do not baptize infants for at least 2 reasons: You can't immerse a baby and we find no baptism in the New Testament except for believers.

I encourage you to read the books that were spoken of in this thread. I hope that I have been of help. twin.

Believe Anglicans see Water baptism as the gateway into the Church, but we Baptists tend to see it more as becoming part of the local assembly, as Faith in Lord Jesus and being saved into the Church happened already!

 

[Markie Boy]

So Reformed Baptists see baptism as a means of grace? Can anyone explain this - I have never heard that.

 

[JM]

So Reformed Baptists see baptism as a means of grace? Can anyone explain this - I have never heard that.

Yes, in the same manner preaching is a means of grace.

17th century Baptist catechism:

Q. 99. Wherein do Baptism and the Lord's Supper differ from the other ordinances of God?

A. Baptism and the Lord's Supper differ from the other ordinances of God in that they were specially instituted by Christ to represent and apply to believers the benefits of the new covenant by visible and outward signs.

(a) Matt 28:19; Acts 22:16; Matt 26:26-28; Rom 6:4

Q. 107. What is the Lord's Supper?

A. The Lord's Supper is a holy ordinance, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine, according to Christ's appointment, His death is showed forth, and the worthy receivers are, not after a corporeal and carnal manner, but by faith, made partakers of His body and blood, with all His benefits, to their spiritual nourishment, and growth in grace.

(a) 1 Cor 11:23-26; 1 Cor 10:16

Q. 108. What is required to the worthy receiving of the Lord's Supper?

A. It is required of them that would worthily (that is, suitably) partake of the Lord's Supper, that they examine themselves, of their knowledge to discern the Lord's body; of their faith to feed upon Him; of their repentance, love, and new obedience: lest, coming unworthily, they eat and drink judgment to themselves.

(a) 1 Cor 11:27-31; 1 Cor 5:8; 2 Cor 13:5

In the London Baptist Confession we read, "confirmation of the faith of believers in all the benefits thereof, their spiritual nourishment, and growth in him, their further engagement in, and to all duties which they owe to him; and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with him, and with each other."

Further, "Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses."

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Markie Boy]

Thank you very much - I truly enjoy learning in this manner. I was in a local Baptist church for a while, and there was a huge stress that the Lord's table was a symbol, nothing more. No spiritual presence or grace or anything, just a reminder.

But it appears the older thinking takes it beyond just symbol.

 

[JM]

Thank you very much - I truly enjoy learning in this manner. I was in a local Baptist church for a while, and there was a huge stress that the Lord's table was a symbol, nothing more. No spiritual presence or grace or anything, just a reminder.

But it appears the older thinking takes it beyond just symbol.

Most Reformed Baptists would agree with this: Aspects of the Lord’s Supper | Tabletalk

"As we partake of Christ in the supper, we are spiritually nourished and thus grow in grace. Additionally, as we spiritually partake of the body and blood of Christ, our union with Him is strengthened. The Lord’s Supper is also an occasion to “testify and renew our thankfulness and engagement to God.” We are to remember Christ’s death on the cross for our sins and to thank God for His atoning work on our behalf."

 

[YeshuaFan]

So Reformed Baptists see baptism as a means of grace? Can anyone explain this - I have never heard that.

No not as a means of grace in that it is saving grace, but that water baptism usually is the way that one is shown accepted into membership of a local church!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Most Reformed Baptists would agree with this: Aspects of the Lord’s Supper | Tabletalk

"As we partake of Christ in the supper, we are spiritually nourished and thus grow in grace. Additionally, as we spiritually partake of the body and blood of Christ, our union with Him is strengthened. The Lord’s Supper is also an occasion to “testify and renew our thankfulness and engagement to God.” We are to remember Christ’s death on the cross for our sins and to thank God for His atoning work on our behalf."

yes, as the Lord Jesus is spiritual present with us during that time of memorial, but it is not adding saving grace as say Catholics and Lutherans see it as doing!

 

[twin1954]

Thank you very much - I truly enjoy learning in this manner. I was in a local Baptist church for a while, and there was a huge stress that the Lord's table was a symbol, nothing more. No spiritual presence or grace or anything, just a reminder.

But it appears the older thinking takes it beyond just symbol.

There are no "means of grace" as in special grace imparted by baptism or so-called sacraments. Grace is imparted through faith in Jesus Christ the Lord alone. There is no special grace through a rite or ritual given. That is Reformed nonsense.

Baptism is symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and by submitting to it we identify publically of our union with Him. The Lord's supper is a picture of faith in Him by which we take Him into ourselves and feed on Him as He becomes our sustineance and part of us by faith. There is no special grace imparted in either ordinance.

Do we draw nearer to Christ when we partake? Certainly we do. But there is no special grace imparted to us when we do.

God's entire grace is upon us at all times. His love, mercy and approbation is upon us at all times. What more could we desire? Do we desire more love? It upon us at all times. He loves us fully in Christ and it can never diminish. Do we want more love? Oh, what a foolish heart we have. Can God love us more than He does in our God and Savior? What do we desire that is not already found in Him?

Being United to Christ by faith is to receive all that God has for us in Him. He is all the blessing of God to us in Him. Being one with Him by faith makes us accepted in the Beloved, which is Christ.

We don't need special grace but only Him in whom grace resides.