A Pastoral Letter to the Clergy from His Eminence Metropolitan JOSEPH

[Anhelyna]

This was passed to me - I feel it's an excellent article

Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

 

[Phronema]

This was passed to me - I feel it's an excellent article

Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

It was very well put, and I enjoyed reading that. He seems to be very even-keeled!

 

[Lukaris]

I feel blessed to have Metr Joseph as our archbishop in the Antiochian Orthodox Church in America.

 

[tapi]

This will not be to the liking of Heers, I fear.

 

[prodromos]

This will not be to the liking of Heers, I fear.

Fr Heers, you mean? You don't have to like him but he is a priest in the Orthodox Church and should always be addressed as such.

 

[ArmyMatt]

well written article.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I am not familiar with Father Heers? What is controversial about him?

Fr Heers, you mean? You don't have to like him but he is a priest in the Orthodox Church and should always be addressed as such.

 

[prodromos]

I am not familiar with Father Heers? What is controversial about him?

He is very patristic in his approach, which rubs some people the wrong way.

 

[rusmeister]

I do see a shade of partisanism even in this. Few things are more devastating to one’s own words than to express the position one has taken a side against without taking the greatest care to express all concerns. Simplifying one’s opponents to a position of the lowest common denominator causes those with higher or different denominators to reject his characterization of them, and therefore his conclusions in the matter. If I think the issue of masks is not at all about “it being impossible to get sick in church”, then his words on that issue become meaningless to me. He has not understood my objection.

And unity requires agreement. It requires that mutually exclusive alternatives are not embraced.

 

[Phronema]

Strangely I find both this message, and the messages by Father Peter Heers to be edifying. I'll just add that the bishops must have a very difficult, and stressful time with balancing their pastoral duties against the pressures of the secular world pushing on them when dealing with this pandemic. Ultimately I think they are trying to keep the Churches open, and doing what it takes to make that happen.


On Father Peter. I'll give him a shameless plug, and recommend his Patreon content if you have the extra bit of cash, and time to get into the lectures. They're very worth it, imo.

 

[ArmyMatt]

personally, I met Fr Peter twice at Seminary, and I found him to be a very thoughtful priest.

I will also say that using an unrelated article as a way to cheap shot a priest you disagree with, or even don't like, is really childish. and being disrespectful for it's own sake doesn't make Fr Peter look bad.

 

[tapi]

I will also say that using an unrelated article as a way to cheap shot a priest you disagree with, or even don't like, is really childish. and being disrespectful for it's own sake doesn't make Fr Peter look bad.

It is perfectly related, as for the last 10 months or so, protopresbyter Heers has been promoting

1) Theories about the Zionists, Kabbalah, Masonists and the Global Elite being behind the corona virus with the plan of seating the Anti-Christ as the world ruler, with the crisis being just the shortcut to bring people to submission
2) Asserting a novel doctrine of the temple area as a totally illness-free zone (even in regard to person-to-person infection) as dogma (consequently, those who employ or agree with sanitary measures are heretics, blasphemers or at best in grave error)
3) Promoting "holy disobedience" to the bishops in regard to the sanitary measures
4) Taking a very political stance pro-Trump, despite his clerical rank, and spreading conspiracy theories about the election having been stolen.
5) Exhorting the Orthodox to not take take the COVID-19 vaccine and spreading theories about it being the Mark of the beast or a "precursor".

In short, he falls under each and every category of issues Met. Joseph discusses in his letter and in no uncertain terms, condemns. Now, Heers obviously isn't under his jurisdiction (good for him, he would be suspended or even defrocked at this point.) In fact, it seems he is under no-ones active pastoral oversight as he says he is under a ROCOR-USA bishop while residing permanently in Greece.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It is perfectly related, as for the last 10 months or so, protopresbyter Heers has been promoting

1) Theories about the Zionists, Kabbalah, Masonists being behind the corona virus with the plan of seating the Anti-Christ as the world ruler, with the crisis being just the shortcut to bring people to submission
2) Asserting a novel doctrine of the temple area as a total-illness free zone (even in regard to person-to-person infection) as dogma (consequently, those who employ or agree with sanitary measures are heretics, blasphemers or at best in grave error)
3) Promoting "holy disobedience" to the bishops in regard to the sanitary measures
4) Taking a very political stance pro-Trump, despite his clerical rank, and spreading conspiracy theories about the election having been stolen.
5) Exhorting the Orthodox to not take take the COVID-19 vaccine and spreading theories about it being the Mark of the beast or a "precursor".

In short, he falls under each and every category of issues Met. Joseph discusses in his letter and in no uncertain terms, condemns. Now, Heers obviously isn't under his jurisdiction (good for him, he would be suspended or even defrocked at this point.) In fact, it seems he is under no-ones active pastoral oversight as he says he is under a ROCOR-USA bishop while residing permanently in Greece.

it's only related if you think that every time a bishop gives a directive that Fr Peter might not agree with as a means to disrespectfully bring up Fr Peter, because you don't like Fr Peter.

either way, none of this gives you (or anyone good cause) to just insult the man for its own sake.

if someone posted a letter about non-Chalcedonians not being Orthodox, and I said stuff like, "Behr isn't gonna like this" or "Never go full Behr when talking with the Copts" or whatever, it'd be just childish nonsense.

 

[tapi]

it's only related if you think that every time a bishop gives a directive that Fr Peter might not agree with as a means to disrespectfully bring up Fr Peter, because you don't like Fr Peter.

either way, none of this gives you (or anyone good cause) to just insult the man for its own sake.

if someone posted a letter about non-Chalcedonians not being Orthodox, and I said stuff like, "Behr isn't gonna like this" or "Never go full Behr when talking with the Copts" or whatever, it'd be just childish nonsense.

As I see it, Heers himself put himself into the limelight by the zealous promotion of extreme views, so far from providing constructive criticism but going off the deep end. He is sowing dissension among the Church and scandalizing the faithful, with absolutely no respect to the archpastoral leadership of the hierarchy.

I do admit I find his activities distasteful and unfit for one in a pastoral position. It's not just me, in addition to Met. Joseph for example Patriarch Kirill called the likes of him "stupid" and Met. Tikhon (Shekunov) did not hesitate to label his ilk wicked liars. So even if my frustration has manifested in unbecoming ways, I've been rather moderate in my scorn as compared to some others.

 

[ArmyMatt]

As I see it, Heers himself put himself into the limelight by zealous promotion of extreme views, so far from providing constructive criticism but going off the deep end. He is sowing dissension among the Church and scandalizing the faithful, with absolutely no respect to the archpastoral leadership of the hierarchy.

I do admit I find his activities distasteful and unfit for one in a pastoral position. It's not just me, in addition to Met. Joseph for example Patriarch Kirill called the likes of him "stupid" and Met. Tikhon (Shekunov) did not hesitate to label his ilk wicked liars. So even if my frustration has manifested in unbecoming ways, I've been rather moderate in my scorn as compared to some others.

to your first point, folks say the same stuff about liberal clergy. yet it's still just as wrong to be intentionally disrespectful for its own sake.

to your second point, for one they are bishops. for two, do you have any evidence of them calling him out specifically, over and over again? and routinely referring to him by his last name only or making him sound like a mental disorder?

 

[tapi]

to your first point, folks say the same stuff about liberal clergy. yet it's still just as wrong to be intentionally disrespectful for its own sake.

to your second point, for one they are bishops. for two, do you have any evidence of them calling him out specifically, over and over again? and routinely referring to him by his last name only or making him sound like a mental disorder?

If you think I'm disrespecting Heers in the same fashion as those who bash "liberals" you've seen nothing. Fr. is not an official title. I respect the priesthood, and in a formal context (which this forum is not), would of course address him with his proper title of protopresbyter.

Of course they do not call *him* out over and over again, as he's not pestering them, living in Greece and publishing his materials in English. No doubt, if he were to conduct such activities in Russia, he would have been defrocked.

Calling someones writings delirious or as ravings makes no assertion about their mental state. However, such theories as posited by Heers are found frequently among those with a very, very different outlook to the world than the vast majority of others (even among the Orthodox). He is either an utter fool, or a modern-day prophet. With his extremist attitude, he's left the middle way long, long ago.

 

[ArmyMatt]

If you think I'm disrespecting Heers in the same fashion as those who bash "liberals" you've seen nothing. Fr. is not an official title. I respect the priesthood, and in a formal context (which this forum is not), would of course address him with his proper title of protopresbyter.

Of course they do not call *him* out over and over again, as he's not pestering them, living in Greece and publishing his materials in English. No doubt, if he were to conduct such activities in Russia, he would have been defrocked.

Calling someones writings delirious or as ravings makes no assertion about their mental state. However, such theories as posited by Heers are found frequently among those with a very, very different outlook to the world than the vast majority of others. He is either an utter fool, or a modern-day prophet. With his extremist attitude, he's left the middle way long, long ago.

being a priest myself, and having seen both left and right bashed, I have seen way more than nothing. I also never said you were bashing Fr Peter in the same fashion.

point two, since bishops don't bash him since he is not in Russia and writes in English, someone who isn't a bishop in Scandinavia should also not bash him.

to your third point, I never mentioned you calling his writings delirious. what I said was you used his last name to sound like disorder (never go full Heers, which sounds a lot like a line from Tropic Thunder). and since he could be a modern day prophet (not my words), he could be correct in what he is saying.

 

[tapi]

being a priest myself, and having seen both left and right bashed, I have seen way more than nothing. I also never said you were bashing Fr Peter in the same fashion.

point two, since bishops don't bash him since he is not in Russia and writes in English, someone who isn't a bishop in Scandinavia should also not bash him.

to your third point, I never mentioned you calling his writings delirious. what I said was you used his last name to sound like disorder (never go full Heers, which sounds a lot like a line from Tropic Thunder). and since he could be a modern day prophet (not my words), he could be correct in what he is saying.

The Russian bishops do not "bash" him because he's not causing damage on their canonical territories. Likely they don't read his stuff because of the language it's published in. But they certainly bash, and laicise, his Russian equivalents. Furthermore, his stuff has been banned from OrthodoxEthos since he began his rampage on the COVID-19-thematic. (unsurprising as Met Tikhon considers his views wicked)

While I am not a bishop in Scandinavia, I do have the right to criticize his stuff, which I consider to cause great harm to the Church by undermining the trust of the faithful in the episcopacy, undermine the credibility of the Church by very outrageous theories being promoted by a clergyman, cause unnecessary suffering by exhorting folks to disregard sanitary measures, and so forth. There are many others who do the same, and in fiery tones too. Responses to extreme views have a tendency to be a bit over the top, even if it is wrong.

In some time we will see whether the elaborate theories of Heers come to fulfillment. If not, he will be shown a total fool and to have hindered and discredited the Church, and all the criticism regardless how harsh have been absolutely correct. If he's right, he will be proven a modern-day prophet like no other in the history of the Church. I would give him approximately the same chance as the schema-igumen recently deposed in Russia. We will see.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The Russian bishops do not "bash" him because he's not causing damage on their canonical territories. Likely they don't read his stuff because of the language it's published in. But they certainly bash, and laicise, his Russian equivalents. Furthermore, his stuff has been banned from OrthodoxEthos since he began his rampage on the COVID-19-thematic. (unsurprising as Met Tikhon considers his views wicked)

While I am not a bishop in Scandinavia, I do have the right to criticize his stuff, which I consider to cause great harm to the Church by undermining the trust of the faithful in the episcopacy, undermine the credibility of the Church by very outrageous theories being promoted by a clergyman, cause unnecessary suffering by exhorting folks to disregard sanitary measures, and so forth. There are many others who do the same, and in fiery tones too. Responses to extreme views have a tendency to be a bit over the top, even if it is wrong.

In some time we will see whether the elaborate theories of Heers come to fulfillment. If not, he will be shown a total fool and to have hindered and discredited the Church, and all the criticism regardless how harsh have been absolutely correct. If he's right, he will be proven a modern-day prophet like no other in the history of the Church. I would give him approximately the same chance as the schema-igumen recently deposed in Russia. We will see.

there is no issue criticizing his views. everyone on here has been critical of the views of various clergy we disagree with. it's criticizing him and being disrespectful to him that's the issue. St Cyril was very respectful to Nestorius even as he was criticizing his heresy.

if bishops don't bash him personally because he isn't causing damage to their territory, someone who doesn't even have a territory should not bash him either (and again, his statements are not him, and are fair game).

 

[tapi]

there is no issue criticizing his views. everyone on here has been critical of the views of various clergy we disagree with. it's criticizing him and being disrespectful to him that's the issue. St Cyril was very respectful to Nestorius even as he was criticizing his heresy.

if bishops don't bash him personally because he isn't causing damage to their territory, someone who doesn't even have a territory should not bash him either (and again, his statements are not him, and are fair game).

Yes, the truth is that hate, malice, disdain or anger cannot truly cure, correct or heal. Yet in extreme contexts, in the face of extreme views which cause harm, these passions are hard to avoid, as evidenced even by the hierarchy and ma. I do admit my shortcomings on this.