A note from our Bishops on voting

[geocajun]

[FONT=arial,tahoma]34. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position. In such cases a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate's opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.

[/FONT] [FONT=arial,tahoma]35. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate's unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons. Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental moral evil.
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[FONT=arial,tahoma]In the end, this is a decision to be made by each Catholic guided by a conscience
formed by Catholic moral teaching.

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[FONT=arial,tahoma]http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf[/FONT]


[FONT=arial,tahoma]That is all.[/FONT]

 

[benedictaoo]

what is a grave to matter to one is not to the other. There in lies the problem.

Now we have to worry about Obama attacking Pakistan and dragging us into another war...

So out goes the window that we are picking one evil over another.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I just have a hard time believing any person should run the country that thinks it is perfectly acceptable to deliberately kill innocent people.

I frankly don't understand the notion: "Well, he doesn't believe these people are really human, but he has some very good ideas on other issues." It just blows my mind.

That is all.

 

[benedictaoo]

Mine too dude...

 

[Michie]

I just have a hard time believing any person should run the country that thinks it is perfectly acceptable to deliberately kill innocent people.

I frankly don't understand the notion: "Well, he doesn't believe these people are really human, but he has some very good ideas on other issues." It just blows my mind.

That is all.

Someone who understands me. I posted another thread where I basically voiced the same concerns.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Posting this again, in case some people missed it. From bishops in the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops:

The Gosppel does not give a specific program for social and political action. Nor does the Church "set forth specific political solutions to temporal questions that God has left to the free and responsible judgment of each person."* Each Catholic citizen has to exercise politican discernment and prudential judgment. Within a democratic society such as Canada, a number of legitimate political approaches is possible. Even when basic Catholic moral principles have been clearly defined, there can still be a varierty of ways for them to be respected and advanced in political life. There is a legitimate range of political opinions, attitudes, convictions, and orientations in society, just as within the Catholic community.

* Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Doctrinal Note: On Some Questions Regarding the Participation of Catholics in Political Life, 24 November 2002, no. 3.

I think they refer to the fact that while we may agree upon a certain social evil, we may disagree on the best ways to go about eradicating that social evil.

Anyway, it's a good article - short one - so it's neat reading for those of you who are interested.

 

[Gwendolyn]

I just have a hard time believing any person should run the country that thinks it is perfectly acceptable to deliberately kill innocent people.

I frankly don't understand the notion: "Well, he doesn't believe these people are really human, but he has some very good ideas on other issues." It just blows my mind.

That is all.

People use that sort of logic with a lot of things, SA. People supported a government that says it's wrong to kill babies, but does nothing to stop it, either. That same government invaded foreign countries under the supposition that those countries posed a direct threat to their home nation. Turns out, those reasons were bogus.

People can rationalise anything if they spend enough time thinking about it.

 

[JoabAnias]

People can rationalise anything if they spend enough time thinking about it.

Is that what you believe happened with partial birth abortion being legalized or the freedom of choice act being promulgated or the born alive act being fought against?

 

[BAFRIEND]

Some will say that the defense of innocent life is only one issue among many, that it is important but not fundamental. They are wrong.- Bishop Raymond Burke

Abortion is a foundational issue; it is not an issue like housing policy or the price of foreign oil. It always involves the intentional killing of an innocent life, and it is always, grievously wrong.- Bishop Charles Chaput.

.

 

[BAFRIEND]

In his column, Archbishop Chaput admonished the group for the “incomplete” use of his statement, noting that they omitted his challenge to find a “compelling proportionate reason” to justify their vote.

Archbishop Chaput defined the “compelling reason” as “the kind of reason we will be able to explain, with a clean heart, to the victims of abortion when we meet them face to face in the next life,” noting that, “if we’re confident that these victims will accept our motives as something more than an alibi, then we can proceed.”
….
He also watched as Catholics faltered on the issue, noting that those who claimed to be “personally opposed” to abortion failed to act. “For most, their personal opposition was little more than pious hand-wringing and a convenient excuse — exactly as it is today.” National Catholic Register June 8 2008

.

 

[Fantine]

I believe that the USCCB is doing a good job in trying to delineate all the issues that Catholics need to be concerned about.

 

[geocajun]

I believe that the USCCB is doing a good job in trying to delineate all the issues that Catholics need to be concerned about.

Agreed. And it has the full weight of the conference, rather than just being someones favorite Bishop.

 

[WarriorAngel]

[FONT=arial,tahoma]34. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position. In such cases a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate's opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,tahoma]35. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate's unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons. Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental moral evil. [/FONT]



[FONT=arial,tahoma]In the end, this is a decision to be made by each Catholic guided by a conscience [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,tahoma]formed by Catholic moral teaching. [/FONT]




[FONT=arial,tahoma]http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf[/FONT]


[FONT=arial,tahoma]That is all.[/FONT]

What other grave matter is there?
What other is life or death?

As far as i know Obama is for war.
He just wants to move it to Paki.

So - there's another war.

Other than that I see no other life threatening decision....aside from abortion. WHich McCain is pro life...and has voted pro life when it came to vote.

Please enlighten.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

What other grave matter is there?
What other is life or death?

As far as i know Obama is for war.
He just wants to move it to Paki.

So - there's another war.

Other than that I see no other life threatening decision....aside from abortion. WHich McCain is pro life...and has voted pro life when it came to vote.

Please enlighten.

I would like to hear this answer.

I would also like to say that Obama seemed very inexperienced in regards to international afairs and diplomacy from what I saw of the debate last night. I think McCain would bring the experience we need for these international affairs and that Obama would be receiving "on the job training".

 

[Gwendolyn]

BA, how do you reconcile the quotes you posted, with the articles Geo and I posted? Do you see a conflict there, or errors in what the bishops have written? I'm just wondering.

 

[Antigone]

Now we have to worry about Obama attacking Pakistan and dragging us into another war...

So out goes the window that we are picking one evil over another.

FYI, the US already pretty much invaded Pakistan, thereby ruining any diplomatic ties with the new government, a particularly stupid move.

McCain, on the other hand, has said in the past that he wants to keep an invasion in Iran as an open option.

Seriously, read the paper once in a while.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Invasions, invasions... thinly veiled premises...

 

[geocajun]

What other grave matter is there?
What other is life or death?

As far as i know Obama is for war.
He just wants to move it to Paki.

So - there's another war.

Other than that I see no other life threatening decision....aside from abortion. WHich McCain is pro life...and has voted pro life when it came to vote.

Please enlighten.

First you've begun with the false premise that McCain is pro-life, which he isn't. Once you realize this, you'll see the grave matter is the war, and Obama isn't pro-war in pakistan that is just rediculous. Obama just isn't a pacifist like republicans like to characterize him as being. Instead he is pro-people, and its reflect in social issues that McCain and his kind neglect. Obama recognizes our obligation toward one another and uses words like "neiborliness" to describe it. The grave issues at hand are national security, integrity, freedom, and healthcare. Under McCain all of these issues are going to be neglected.

Additionally if you bothered to read the article I posted from our Bishops (which I am betting you didn't), it states that voting is up to each individual catholic. So why are you so combative?

Why do you insist on trying to use my faith as a weapon against me so I'll vote for your candidate??

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Geo,

McCain's platform says "pro-life" and McCain is on record saying that Wade vs Roe was a bad decision. Not sure how you determined he is not pro-life?

 

[geocajun]

Geo,

McCain's platform says "pro-life" and McCain is on record saying that Wade vs Roe was a bad decision. Not sure how you determined he is not pro-life?

Because he is pro-baby killing for research on stem cells, and has plan to end abortion. McCain is fighting for states rights to protect abortion, and spinning that into fooling non-critical thinking pro-lifers into think the absurd - which is that its a pro-life tactic. Its baloney, and nothing in his agenda even recognizes the reasons women get abortions and attempts to address them.

Some of us aren't fooled by winks and nods. McCain isn't pro-life.