Debate-For MJ's Only A NEW Torah Hebrew Day Didn't Begin At Sunset

[AbbaLove]

A NEW DAY IS CALLING ~ A NEW DAY IS COMING ​

Two different timeline interpretations of "between the [two] evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim) explains why the JPS Tanakh 1985 translation and other translations use "twilight" in Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5 and Numbers 9:3 as beginning at sunset ... while other MJs prefer ... the 2nd Temple timeline interpretation of "between the [two] evenings" as occurring in the "afternoon until just before sunset" as was the timeline at the crucifixion of Yeshua. So, the question is what scriptures support a Torah timeline that a new Hebrew day didn't begin until well after sunset (e.g. 60 to 90 minutes after sunset)?

After considerable research i've come to believe it's possible that a Hebrew day in the Torah didn't begin until as long as 1 1/2 hours (90 minutes or at least 60 minutes) after sunset NOT at sunset which is the prevailing timeline.

What this means is that there is a difference in the two timelines of at least 5 hours or at the most 8 hours depending on whether the "first evening" ( ereb: עָ֫רֶב ) began with the decline of the afternoon sun at noon or not until 2:30 pm to 3:00 pm when the killing of the Temple Paschal lamb occurred on Pesach/Passover during the time of Yeshua.

If you agree it's plausible that a new Hebrew Torah day didn't originally begin until 60-90 minutes after sunset ... then be the first to list the two key scripture verses in Exodus that support this belief that a new Hebrew day didn't begin at sunset (also referenced in Leviticus, Numbers and Ezekiel).

Who will be first to point out the two key scripture verses? Will it be BukiRob, gadar perets, Heber Book List, Lulav, pat34lee, Yeshua HaDerekh, visionary or another Messianic ???

 

[Heber Book List]

A NEW DAY IS CALLING ~ A NEW DAY IS COMING ​

Two different timeline interpretations of "between the [two] evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim) explains why the JPS Tanakh 1985 translation and other translations use "twilight" in Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5 and Numbers 9:3 as beginning at sunset ... while other MJs prefer ... the 2nd Temple timeline interpretation of "between the [two] evenings" as occurring in the "afternoon until just before sunset" as was the timeline at the crucifixion of Yeshua. So, the question is what scriptures support a Torah timeline that a new Hebrew day didn't begin until well after sunset (e.g. 60 to 90 minutes after sunset)?

After considerable research i've come to believe it's possible that a Hebrew day in the Torah didn't begin until as long as 1 1/2 hours (90 minutes or at least 60 minutes) after sunset NOT at sunset which is the prevailing timeline.

What this means is that there is a difference in the two timelines of at least 5 hours or at the most 8 hours depending on whether the "first evening" ( ereb: עָ֫רֶב ) began with the decline of the afternoon sun at noon or not until 2:30 pm to 3:00 pm when the killing of the Temple Paschal lamb occurred on Pesach/Passover during the time of Yeshua.

If you agree it's plausible that a new Hebrew Torah day didn't originally begin until 60-90 minutes after sunset ... then be the first to list the two key scripture verses in Exodus that support this belief that a new Hebrew day didn't begin at sunset (also referenced in Leviticus, Numbers and Ezekiel).

Who will be first to point out the two key scripture verses? Will it be BukiRob, gadar perets, Heber Book List, Lulav, pat34lee, Yeshua HaDerekh, visionary or another Messianic ???

I find some of the stances more amusing than helpful. I'll just sit and watch some posters squirm.

 

[Open Heart]

To the best of my knowledge, written Torah is not that specific. It only says "and there was evening and there was morning, the X day." So we know that evening comes first in a day. But it doesn't write precisely when the evening begins. For that, we need Oral Torah.

 

[AbbaLove]

To the best of my knowledge, written Torah is not that specific. It only says "and there was evening and there was morning, the X day." So we know that evening comes first in a day. But it doesn't write precisely when the evening begins. For that, we need Oral Torah.

In this controversy Messianic Judaism would favor the Oral Torah of Rabbinic Judaism. It's safer to follow the traditions of the Sanhedrin even if the Torah suggests otherwise.

 

[Steve Petersen]

https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/...sics/11-29-11-calendar/counting-day-night.pdf

 

[AbbaLove]

https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/...sics/11-29-11-calendar/counting-day-night.pdf

l) With regard to the celebration of Passover, the Bible comments in unequivocal language: ''On the fourteenth day of the month (of Nisan) in the evening, you shall eat matzot'' (Exod. 12: 18). Now, according to the widely accepted view that the day starts with the appearance of the stars at evening, the eating of matzah on Passover eve (at the "Seder") surely falls on the 15th day of Nisan. Why then does the Torah call this Passover eve "on the fourteenth day of the month'' if the evening and night belong to the day which comes after them?

2) A further proof that the evening and night belong to the preceding day can be derived from the injunction to eat the paschal sacrifice on the Passover eve. ''And you shall not leave any of it over until morning; if any of it is left until morning, you shall burn it" (Exod. 12: 10). Thus, this duty to destroy the ''leftovers'' (no tar), starts only with the onset of the next day, in the morning. (During the night, which is reckoned to belong to the previous day, nothing becomes notar.)​

That link just goes to show the confusion within the various sects of Judaism as to all the possibilities that have been suggested as to when Aviv 14 ends and when Aviv 15 begins. As Heber Book List says ...

I find some of the stances more amusing than helpful. I'll just sit and watch some posters squirm.

Neither of the two key verses in Exodus were mentioned in that lengthy link that's less than helpful to clarify when Aviv 14 ends and Aviv 15 begins. There are two key verses in Exodus that are helpful.

 

[visionary]

In Hebraic thought, evening twilight is understood as a transitional period between day and night. It is currently understood that it is evening twilight as long as two stars of medium magnitude are visible, but it is night upon the appearance of a third star of medium magnitude. In ancient times, some understood that night begins in a moment in time which is impossible to determine called the twinkling of an eye. This is interesting, as Paul prophesied that the righteous would be resurrected in the twinkling of an eye.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a secret; We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul's use of the phrase the twinkling of an eye aligns perfectly with the ancient understanding. The exact moment night begins therefore remains a little mysterious in Hebraic thought.

 

[visionary]

This "twinkling" that happens just at the moment of sunset.. The sun goes green for a moment, then twinkles, and is gone.

 

[Joelthe vicious]

Steve Peterson' signature line, Q~I would rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question - Max Tegmark~Q
But I would rather have God's answers I cannot question, than questions God has not answered nor raised.

Therefore I prefer the simplest explanation for 'behn-ha-arba-yim', the literal,
'behn' -- between;
'ha' -- the
'arba' -- quarters
'yim' -- of days,
...taking into account the expression is interchangeably used with 'ereb' -- late
so that literally 'behn-ha-arba-yim' means time "between the late quarters of days" which pin point, is 3 PM or "the ninth hour" of daylight, WHEN THE LAMB OF GOD JESUS CHRIST, DIED-- died, it is also with valid bearing written, "midst while the sun was declining / setting".

 

[AbbaLove]

This "twinkling" that happens just at the moment of sunset.. The sun goes green for a moment, then twinkles, and is gone.

Isn't it only at sunrise when the very first twinkling is green if atmospheric conditions are just right? Any way twilight can refer to either morning twilight or evening twilight defined as follows ...

Morning civil twilight begins when the geometric center of the sun is 6° below the horizon and ends at sunrise. Evening civil twilight begins at sunset and ends when the geometric center of the sun reaches 6° below the horizon.

Twilight is the time between dawn and sunrise, or between sunset and dusk.

Evening: civil, nautical, and astronomical twilight at dusk.

Twilight on Earth is the illumination of the lower atmosphere when the
Sun itself is not directly visible because it is below the horizon.
​

Several Bible TORAH translations such as the JPS 1985 edition read "twilight" in Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5 and Numbers 9:3 for their interpretation of "between the two evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim) when the Israelites were to kill the Passover lambs. However, Chabad uses the name "afternoon" instead of twilight in these three verses. At least one MJ member believes that "afternoon" is a better translation for "between the two evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim) than is "twilight" with the Jewish day ending before sunset ...

Conclusion: The weightier evidence, both historical and scriptural, is clearly in favor of "between the evenings" meaning a time period before sunset.

 

[AbbaLove]

Therefore I prefer the simplest explanation for 'behn-ha-arba-yim', the literal,
'behn' -- between;
'ha' -- the
'arba' -- quarters
'yim' -- of days,

...taking into account the expression is interchangeably used with 'ereb' -- late
so that literally 'behn-ha-arba-yim' means time "between the late quarters of days" which pin point, is 3 PM or "the ninth hour" of daylight, WHEN THE LAMB OF GOD JESUS CHRIST, DIED-- died, it is also with valid bearing written, "midst while the sun was declining / setting".

Shemot - Exodus 12:6 (CJT with commentary by Rashi)
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.
Vayikra - Leviticus 23:5 (CJT with commentary by Rashi)
In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, in the afternoon, [you shall sacrifice] the Passover offering to the Lord.
Bamidbar - Numbers 9:3 (CJT with commentary by Rashi)
On the afternoon of the fourteenth of this month, you shall make it in its appointed time; in accordance with all its statutes and all its ordinances you shall make it.​

What are two verses ('behn-ha-arba-yim') in Exodus 29 that provide further support that the Passover lambs were either killed in the afternoon of the 14th day of the first month OR during the evening twilight at either the beginning of the 14th day or at the end of the 14th day before nightfall and the beginning of the 15th day?

 

[AbbaLove]

Arbayim is dual (two) seen by the ending “ayim”. The word Arbayim is number 6153 in the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Strong's defines Arbayim as dusk and is from Strong’s number 6150 which means to grow dusky at sundown. The Online Bible Lexicon defines Arbayim as evening, night.

H6153 - עֶרֶב ʻereb, eh'-reb; from ; dusk:— day, even(-ing, tide), night.​

Exodus 12:6 (from Dead Sea Scroll 4Q11)
and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel shall kill it at evening.
Leviticus 23:5 (from Dead Sea Scroll 4Q24)
the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening, is Yahweh’s Passover.
Numbers 9:3 (from Dead Sea Scroll 4Q23)
On the fourteenth day of this month, at evening in the day, you shall keep it in its appointed season. You shall keep it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances.”

Exodus 12:6 (JPS 1985 edition)
You shall keep watch over it until the fourteenth day of this month; and all the assembled congregation of the Israelites shall slaughter it at twilight.
Leviticus 23:5 (JPS 1985 edition)
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, there shall be a passover offering to the LORD,
Numbers 9:3 (JPS 1985 edition)
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, there shall be a passover offering to the LORD,​

When the Pharisees took control from the Sadducees during the 2nd Temple Period they changed the killing of the Passover lambs from evening/twilight to afternoon. Yes, Yeshua died mid-afternoon the same time as the Paschal lamb was slain. However, should we then redefine the timeline of YHVH in the Torah (Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 9:3) to that of the Pharisees afternoon timeline (Matthew 23:3)?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Arbayim is dual (two) seen by the ending “ayim”. The word Arbayim is number 6153 in the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Strong's defines Arbayim as dusk and is from Strong’s number 6150 which means to grow dusky at sundown. The Online Bible Lexicon defines Arbayim as evening, night.

H6153 - עֶרֶב ʻereb, eh'-reb; from ; dusk:— day, even(-ing, tide), night.​

Exodus 12:6 (from Dead Sea Scroll 4Q11)
and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel shall kill it at evening.
Leviticus 23:5 (from Dead Sea Scroll 4Q24)
the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening, is Yahweh’s Passover.
Numbers 9:3 (from Dead Sea Scroll 4Q23)
On the fourteenth day of this month, at evening in the day, you shall keep it in its appointed season. You shall keep it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances.”

Exodus 12:6 (JPS 1985 edition)
You shall keep watch over it until the fourteenth day of this month; and all the assembled congregation of the Israelites shall slaughter it at twilight.
Leviticus 23:5 (JPS 1985 edition)
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, there shall be a passover offering to the LORD,
Numbers 9:3 (JPS 1985 edition)
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, there shall be a passover offering to the LORD,​

When the Pharisees took control from the Sadducees during the 2nd Temple Period they changed the killing of the Passover lambs from evening/twilight to afternoon. Yes, Yeshua died mid-afternoon the same time as the Paschal lamb was slain. However, should we then redefine the timeline of YHVH in the Torah (Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 9:3) to that of the Pharisees afternoon timeline (Matthew 23:3)?

Jesus answered this for us:

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.

 

[AbbaLove]

Jesus answered this for us:
Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.

Yeshua did not say that the Pharisees afternoon timeline for killing the lambs was the same timeline as the killing of the lambs in the Torah (Exodus 12:5, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 9:3). However, when the Temple Priests and Levite helpers became involved in killing the lambs more than 1 1/2 hours were required. In Exodus 12:6 the Israelites killed their own lambs. So they could have killed and slaughtered their lambs during 1 1/2 hours between the first and second evenings (beyn ha'arbayim) of twilight. Some interlinear translations of הָעַרְבָּֽיִם use the phrase "bin e·orbim" meaning "between the evenings."

Arbayim is dual (two) seen by the ending “ayim”. The word Arbayim is number 6153 in the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Strong’s defines Arbayim as dusk and is from Strong’s number 6150 which means to grow dusky at sundown. The Online Bible Lexicon defines Arbayim as evening, night.

Strong's H6153 -
עֶרֶב ʻereb, eh'-reb; dusk:— even(-ing, tide), night ("twi" in twilight means two) ​

The two most prominent Jewish scholars of the Middle Ages was Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac (Shlomo Yitzhaki), known as Rashi (based on an acronym of his Hebrew initials). born in northern France in 1040. Rashi’s best-known works are his comprehensive commentaries on the Bible and the Babylonian Talmud. Rashi’s commentaries on the Bible are based on the Masoretic text, a version of the Bible compiled by scholars between the seventh and 10th centuries.

Rashi held to the Jewish Talmud tradition of the killing of the lambs in the afternoon. With the first evening beginning just as the noon sun was declining and the second evening just just as the sun was nearing sunset.

The other prominent Jewish scholar of the Middle Ages was Abraham ben Mei r Ibn Ezra born in 1089(1092) in Tudela, Spain. He considered one of the most distinguished Jewish biblical commentators and philosophers of the Middle Ages. As a man of Torah scholarship, art and secular knowledge, he surpassed all his contemporaries. His influence upon learning and writing in Italy, Southern France and England was greater than that of any other Jewish figure.

Ibn Ezra held to the Torah interpretation of the killing of the lambs during twilight. The first evening of twilight beginning at sunset and the second evening of twilight ending 1 1/2 hours later at the beginning of night.

So, which timeline was closer to that of Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 9:3 ... the evening/twilight timeline of the Sadducees OR the afternoon timeline of the Pharisees?

 

[Steve Petersen]

He told his disciples to obey them. End of discussion.

 

[Joelthe vicious]

Refer post#1,

A NEW DAY IS CALLING ~ A NEW DAY IS COMING​

Two different timeline interpretations of "between the [two] evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim) explains why the JPS Tanakh 1985 translation and other translations use "twilight" in Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5 and Numbers 9:3 as beginning at sunset ... while other MJs prefer ... the 2nd Temple timeline interpretation of "between the [two] ev....

l) With regard to the celebration of Passover, the Bible comments in unequivocal language: ''On the fourteenth day of the month (of Nisan) in the evening, you shall eat matzot'' (Exod. 12: 18). Now, according to the widely accepted view that the day starts with the appearance of the stars at evening, the eating of matzah on Passover eve (at the "Seder") surely falls on the 15th day of Nisan. Why then does the Torah call this Passover eve "on the fourteenth day of the month'' if the evening and night belong to the day which comes after them?

2) A further proof that the evening and night belong to the preceding day can be derived from the injunction to eat the paschal sacrifice on the Passover eve. ''And you shall not leave any of it over until morning; if any of it is left until morning, you shall burn it" (Exod. 12: 10). Thus, this duty to destroy the ''leftovers'' (no tar), starts only with the onset of the next day, in the morning. (During the night, which is reckoned to belong to the previous day, nothing becomes notar.)​

That link just goes to show the confusion within the various sects of Judaism as to all the possibilities that have been suggested as to when Aviv 14 ends and when Aviv 15 begins. As Heber Book List says ...

​

Neither of the two key verses in Exodus were mentioned in that lengthy link that's less than helpful to clarify when Aviv 14 ends and Aviv 15 begins. There are two key verses in Exodus that are helpful.

View http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book 1, 1 Passover to Crucifixion.pdf, around page 51 which explains the two beginnings of "this that selfsame Whole-Day BONE-DAY" the 14th 15th and 16th days of the First Month INDISTINGUISHABLE THREE-IN-ONE at first, and later on in the Scriptures and history organised and institutionalised each day and date distinctly beginning with its "evening" beginning after sunset, and right up to the end of Scripture and of time.

 

[Joelthe vicious]

Jesus answered this for us:

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.

Jesus' is no injunction to "do everything they tell you"; it was a warning NOT to "do everything they tell you" because of the deceitfulness of “the teachers of the law and the Pharisees (who) sit in Moses’ seat" BUT TEACH THEIR OWN LIES!

"...be careful to do everything they, tell you! The false teachers!"

 

[Joelthe vicious]

Ibn Ezra held to the Torah interpretation of the killing of the lambs during twilight. The first evening of twilight beginning at sunset and the second evening of twilight ending 1 1/2 hours later at the beginning of night.

Who's 'Ibn Ezra'? Did God speak to Ibn Ezra as He spoke to Moses? Is Ibn Ezra telling what God said or what the Sadducees according to Ibn Ezra, SUPPOSEDLY, said?

 

[AbbaLove]

He told his disciples to obey them.

You didn't quote the last sentence of verse 3 of Matthew 23:3 - "So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." The Pharisees were the law, but that doesn't mean they were always right. For example they crucified their Messiah ...

Isaiah 53:7
He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so He did not open His mouth.​

So, what you seem to suggest is that for the sake of the Pharisees tradition we should redefine those translations (like the JPS and others) that read "twilight" as occurring during several hours in the afternoon before sunset.

It's possible that Yeshua and His twelve disciple's "Last Supper" were enjoying a pre-seder as according to the original timeline of Exodus 12:6, in which the earliest the lambs were slain begin at sunset on Aviv 14 during 1 1/2 hours of twilight.

Lulav and hundreds, if not thousands of MJs believe that Yeshua and His disciples were having a Passover Seder at the beginning of Aviv 14. Don't be so hasty in your opinion ("End of discussion) to dismiss "twilight" in favor of "afternoon" with respect to Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 9:3.

 

[Joelthe vicious]

hundreds, if not thousands of MJs believe that Yeshua and His disciples were having a Passover Seder at the beginning of Aviv 14. Don't be so hasty in your opinion ("End of discussion) to dismiss "twilight" in favor of "afternoon" with respect to Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 9:3.

Your answer, solution, explanation, confirmation of this whole matter lies in your own words, not in dark ages dark minds or befogged 'M_odern J_ews'' minds are they thousands or millions or billions. In your own words, 'Yeshua and His disciples were having a Passover Seder at the beginning of Aviv 14' --- NOT 'a Passover Seder'! There's your problem.

Refer, http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book 1, 1 Passover to Crucifixion.pdf, around page 32, Par. 5.1.1.5.3.2. Jewish Tradition