A new New Testament translation by EO scholar DB Hart

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Eastern Orthodox scholar & universalist David Bentley Hart posted:

"In the end, it is solely because he has been indoctrinated to believe that something like the later picture of hell is present in the New Testament; and so he sees that picture in the texts whether it is there or not. In fact, what the New Testament provides are a number of fragmentary images that can be taken in any number of ways, arranged according to our prejudices and expectations, and declared literal or metaphorical or hyperbolic as our desires dictate. Yes, Jesus speaks of a final judgment, and uses many metaphors to describe the unhappy lot of the condemned. Many of these are metaphors of annihilation, like the burning of chaff or brambles in ovens, or the final destruction of body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom. Others are metaphors of exclusion, like the sealed doors of wedding feasts. A few, a very few, are images of torture and torment, and yet these are also for the most part images of penalties that explicitly have only a limited term (Matthew 5:36; 18:34; Luke 12:47-48, 59). Nowhere is there any description of a kingdom of perpetual cruelty presided over by Satan, as though he were a kind of chthonian god. Thus, pace Wills, there is no need on my part to “oust” this traditional picture of hell from the New Testament. It simply is not there. By letting my Hades be Hades and my Gehenna be Gehenna, all I have done is report a distinction present in the text. And, in not presuming the mythopoeia of later Christian eschatology and cosmology, I have done nothing more than leave a mystery intact that many translations, through their excessive fastidiousness and uniformity of expression, have tended to conjure away. A translator who does that can no more be said to have “ousted” the conventional picture of hell from scripture than a workman who oils the hinges on an upstairs door, repairs the window casement around a loose sash, and cuts away the tree branches that scrape against the eaves can be said to have “exorcised” the ghost that the residents of the house had imagined was responsible for all the strange noises keeping them up at night. After all, all those Greek-speaking fathers of the early church who were universalist—Origen, Didymus the Blind, Gregory of Nyssa, and so on—were perfectly familiar with the texts of scripture, and none of them felt in the least discouraged by what they found there."

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version
 
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Der Alte

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Eastern Orthodox scholar & universalist David Bentley Hart posted:
"In the end, it is solely because he has been indoctrinated to believe that something like the later picture of hell is present in the New Testament; and so he sees that picture in the texts whether it is there or not. In fact, what the New Testament provides are a number of fragmentary images that can be taken in any number of ways, arranged according to our prejudices and expectations, and declared literal or metaphorical or hyperbolic as our desires dictate. Yes, Jesus speaks of a final judgment, and uses many metaphors to describe the unhappy lot of the condemned. Many of these are metaphors of annihilation, like the burning of chaff or brambles in ovens, or the final destruction of body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom. Others are metaphors of exclusion, like the sealed doors of wedding feasts. A few, a very few, are images of torture and torment, and yet these are also for the most part images of penalties that explicitly have only a limited term (Matthew 5:36; 18:34; Luke 12:47-48, 59). Nowhere is there any description of a kingdom of perpetual cruelty presided over by Satan, as though he were a kind of chthonian god. Thus, pace Wills, there is no need on my part to “oust” this traditional picture of hell from the New Testament. It simply is not there. By letting my Hades be Hades and my Gehenna be Gehenna, all I have done is report a distinction present in the text. And, in not presuming the mythopoeia of later Christian eschatology and cosmology, I have done nothing more than leave a mystery intact that many translations, through their excessive fastidiousness and uniformity of expression, have tended to conjure away. A translator who does that can no more be said to have “ousted” the conventional picture of hell from scripture than a workman who oils the hinges on an upstairs door, repairs the window casement around a loose sash, and cuts away the tree branches that scrape against the eaves can be said to have “exorcised” the ghost that the residents of the house had imagined was responsible for all the strange noises keeping them up at night. After all, all those Greek-speaking fathers of the early church who were universalist—Origen, Didymus the Blind, Gregory of Nyssa, and so on—were perfectly familiar with the texts of scripture, and none of them felt in the least discouraged by what they found there."
"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."
And yet once again CA has cherry picked a source which just happens to agree with his UR assumptions/presuppositions. This source supposedly written by an EO scholar perpetuates the totally false myth that Gehenna in the NT refers to the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem.
"Many of these are metaphors of annihilation, like the burning of chaff or brambles in ovens, or the final destruction of body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom."
There is no archaeological or literary evidence that Gehenna was ever used as dump for burning trash or bodies. If a "scholar" can't even get that right how can anything he says be trusted?
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
There was a valley near Jerusalem that was used as a trash dump but it was not Gehenna.
ETA: I just checked Hart's CV at University of Notre Dame. Here are his qualifications. I don't see Greek there anywhere. Being a professor at ND does not necessarily qualify someone to translate the NT.

His specialties are philosophical theology, systematics, patristics, classical and continental philosophy, and Asian religion. His most recent work has concerned the genealogy of classical and Christian metaphysics, ontology, the metaphysics of the soul, and the philosophy of mind.
David Bentley - Hart // Institute for Advanced Study // University of Notre Dame
 
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ClementofA

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And yet once again CA has cherry picked a source which just happens to agree with his UR assumptions/presuppositions.


Where does the "source" say he agrees with my "UR assumptions/presuppositions"? Nowhere. Neither have i stated that i agree with what was posted.


This source supposedly written by an EO scholar perpetuates the totally false myth that Gehenna in the NT refers to the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem.
There is no archaeological or literary evidence that Gehenna was ever used as dump for burning trash or bodies. If a "scholar" can't even get that right how can anything he says be trusted?

Where did my quote of David Bentley Hart say Gehenna - was - ever used as a "dump for burning trash or bodies" or - was - ever used as anything? Where does it ever refer to Gehenna in the past tense?
 
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ClementofA

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ETA: I just checked Hart's CV at University of Notre Dame. Here are his qualifications. I don't see Greek there anywhere. Being a professor at ND does not necessarily qualify someone to translate the NT.
His specialties are philosophical theology, systematics, patristics, classical and continental philosophy, and Asian religion. His most recent work has concerned the genealogy of classical and Christian metaphysics, ontology, the metaphysics of the soul, and the philosophy of mind.
David Bentley - Hart // Institute for Advanced Study // University of Notre Dame

What qualifications do you have to make such a determination?

BTW, well known NT scholar N.T. Wright thought it worth his time to review David Bentley Hart's translation. Do you think he would have bothered with someone who had no Koine Greek qualifications?
 
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Der Alte

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What qualifications do you have to make such a determination?
BTW, well known NT scholar N.T. Wright thought it worth his time to review David Bentley Hart's translation. Do you think he would have bothered with someone who had no Koine Greek qualifications?
I don't know what Wright thought I can't read his mind, can you? I am qualified to make the statements I made because I can read and I read Hart's CV, Curriculum Vitae which lists all of his qualifications, positions held, books written etc.
 
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Der Alte

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Where does the "source" say he agrees with my "UR assumptions/presuppositions"? Nowhere. Neither have i stated that i agree with what was posted.
You did with the first line of your post."Eastern Orthodox scholar & universalist David Bentley Hart posted:". You would not have quoted him if he did no support UR.
Where did my quote of David Bentley Hart say Gehenna - was - ever used as a "dump for burning trash or bodies" or - was - ever used as anything? Where does it ever refer to Gehenna in the past tense?
You didn't even read your own quote?
"Many of these are metaphors of annihilation, like the burning of chaff or brambles in ovens, or the final destruction of body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom." If the valley of Hinnom [Gehenna] was not supposedly used for something why is it mentioned so many times in the NT?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You did with the first line of your post."Eastern Orthodox scholar & universalist David Bentley Hart posted:". You would not have quoted him if he did no support UR.

You didn't even read your own quote?
"Many of these are metaphors of annihilation, like the burning of chaff or brambles in ovens, or the final destruction of body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom." If Gehenna was not used for something why is it mentioned so many times in the NT?
For clarity , Yahweh willing,
(I think) you already know and belief by faith in Jesus and His Word
that Universal R. is a dangerous false gospel, evil and wicked in purpose and practice,
right ?
 
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Der Alte

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...BTW, well known NT scholar N.T. Wright thought it worth his time to review David Bentley Hart's translation. Do you think he would have bothered with someone who had no Koine Greek qualifications?
Did you even read your own link? Wright essentially said Hart did not know what he was talking about.
 
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ClementofA

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You did with the first line of your post."Eastern Orthodox scholar & universalist David Bentley Hart posted:". You would not have quoted him if he did no support UR.

You can't read minds so have no idea whether or not i would have quoted him "if he did not support UR". For the record i have never said i "agree" with what was posted.

 
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ClementofA

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I don't know what Wright thought I can't read his mind, can you? I am qualified to make the statements I made because I can read and I read Hart's CV, Curriculum Vitae which lists all of his qualifications, positions held, books written etc.

The link you provided says Hart studies Patristics. Do you suppose he does that without reading the original languages & just reads them in English translations? If he had no qualifications in Greek why wouldn't any of the reviews posted in the OP mention that? Do you even know what his qualifications in Greek are?
 
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ClementofA

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This source supposedly written by an EO scholar perpetuates the totally false myth that Gehenna in the NT refers to the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem.
There is no archaeological or literary evidence that Gehenna was ever used as dump for burning trash or bodies. If a "scholar" can't even get that right how can anything he says be trusted?

Where did my quote of David Bentley Hart say Gehenna - was - ever used as a "dump for burning trash or bodies" or - was - ever used as anything? Where does it ever refer to Gehenna in the past tense?


You didn't even read your own quote?
"Many of these are metaphors of annihilation, like the burning of chaff or brambles in ovens, or the final destruction of body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom." If the valley of Hinnom [Gehenna] was not supposedly used for something why is it mentioned so many times in the NT?

Where did my quote of David Bentley Hart say Gehenna - was - ever used as a "dump for burning trash or bodies" or - was - ever used as anything? Where does it ever refer to Gehenna in the past tense? Does "final destruction" sound like the past tense to you?
 
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ClementofA

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This source supposedly written by an EO scholar perpetuates the totally false myth that Gehenna in the NT refers to the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem

Where did DBH say "Gehenna in the NT refers to the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem"?

Do you disagree with all of the following & consider them wrong & that they "perpetuate the totally false myth that Gehenna in the NT refers to the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem":

Strong's Concordance
geenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer.

HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom")

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
Of Hebrew origin (gay' and Hinnom); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively)

Strong's Greek: 1067. γέεννα (geenna) -- Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
 
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Der Alte

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You can't read minds so have no idea whether or not i would have quoted him "if he did not support UR". For the record i have never said i "agree" with what was posted.
Best laugh I've had all day. Why would you quote someone, identify him as an Eastern Orthodox scholar if you did not agree with what he said? You certainly didn't try to counter or refute anything he said.
 
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The link you provided says Hart studies Patristics. Do you suppose he does that without reading the original languages & just reads them in English translations? If he had no qualifications in Greek why wouldn't any of the reviews posted in the OP mention that? Do you even know what his qualifications in Greek are?
I have studied the patristics, as you well know I have quoted them frequently but that does not qualify me to translate the NT. I know what qualifications Hart listed on his CV, it does not include Greek.
 
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Der Alte

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Where did DBH say "Gehenna in the NT refers to the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem"?
Do you disagree with all of the following & consider them wrong & that they "perpetuate the totally false myth that Gehenna in the NT refers to the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem":
Strong's Concordance
geenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer.
HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom")
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
Of Hebrew origin (gay' and Hinnom); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively)
...
Hart does not specify that the Gehinnom he referred to is outside of Jerusalem, but that is the only Gehinnom I know about.
I just reread my post I inadvertently omitted part of my response it should have read "the totally false myth that trash and bodies burned perpetually in Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom, outside Jerusalem." There is a valley outside Jerusalem which archaeological evidence shows was used as a trash dump but it is not Gehenna. We regret any inconvenience this may have caused.
 
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anna ~ grace

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For what it's worth, my mother urged my husband and I to read his Bible translation. The EO posters (including a priest) in The Ancient Way all encouraged her, and me, to steer clear of Hart. From an EO perspective, his theology is problematic. So if the EO take issue with him, best to steer clear.
 
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Best laugh I've had all day. Why would you quote someone, identify him as an Eastern Orthodox scholar if you did not agree with what he said? You certainly didn't try to counter or refute anything he said.

I can think of multiple reasons why people quote others they don't necessarily agree with or definitely disagree with without saying so. It happens everyday numerous times. BTW i'm not Eastern Orthodox.
 
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