A mutation ceases to provoke adaptation, to a particular selection pressure: design to the rescue?

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,380
704
45
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
Hi there,

So this is just a hypothetical: if a mutation ceases to provoke adaptation, to a particular selection pressure, will "Design" come to the rescue (where random change would only hinder)? Will "Design" ensure that the rest of the adaptation is fulfilled, before the creature gives up and takes flight? The point is "Design" is a greater strength at fulfilling adaptations, either sequentially or tangentially or reaffirmingly (complexly hard to instill). For every mutation, there are a number of things that "Design" could complete - is what I am saying. "Design" is not limited to maintaining the same outlook to every selection pressure.

This really is the cloak and dagger of "Evolution" that somehow "Evolution" has an answer to mutation, that "Design" does not. But when "Design" answers "sin", it answers the question of mutation pre-emptively: mutation does not become strong, unless you allow it to continue - but continuing is a question of faith not mutation. I want to believe I can be great, I get that, but I want to be great "lawfully" and substituting pressure for faith, is disingenuous, unless you really aim to be as weak as possible, while doing it.

I want to impress on you that faith works more dynamically, with selection pressure, than "consequence", there are a number of selection pressures working on people at anyone time, perfecting the response to a single mutation in no way addresses all those pressures, without faith compounding them to the one interpretation. What is an advance of mutation to one pressure, does not identify with others unless there is a way of comparing one adaptation to another - precisely what "Design" enables, both in stipulation (of what is possible) and flourishing (as to how well what is possible is known). You can't grease the monkey for multiple selection pressures and not have the greater response to adaptation slip through your fingers.

The important thing is character. If adaptation helps you build character, you are able to interpret what selection pressure is affecting you and how. If you have character, you can reorientate an adaptation to the most viable potential possible. Even predators do this, though not to the same extent. What is expected, is - if not a resurrection - a reaffirmation of the adaptations of the previous generation, that worked for the next. This is the whole point of honouring your parents - you have twice the reason to obey parents of the same kind, because the lineage is that much easier and lighter to pass on: it does not create a cognitive load, that needs to manipulate outcomes for specific mutations and their respective adaptations.

I don't know if you can grasp this: but the principality of congeniality is as adaptive or more of adaptations that work, than might be possible by untold chance. Refining adaptations for a single design, creates its own Evolution - a "genetic Revolution" if you will.

Design enables a genetic 'revolution', it is not necessary for a mutation to patch all possibilities via the one interpretation

You are right, you need to be open-minded about what a mutation leaves you open to, but ignoring mutation can be made worthwhile, if the greater genetic revolution is enabled.

This is the true, differentiation of the species, that it happen through variety of design, not only compounding expectation of attenuation.
 

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,380
704
45
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
Design will not do that.

Design will most assuredly do that - it isn't restrained by its being design, when adaptation is needed (it is enhanced).

If you could prove that one mutation lead to another, you would have a case; as it stands, only design explains why adaptation is able to happen so easily.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

Leading a blameless life
Jul 14, 2015
12,340
7,678
51
✟314,959.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Design will most assuredly do that - it isn't restrained by its being design, when adaptation is needed (it is enhanced).

If you could prove that one mutation lead to another, you would have a case; as it stands, only design explains why adaptation is able to happen so easily.
No. No it does not. What you are describing is selection pressure.
 
Upvote 0

Frank Robert

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2021
2,276
1,121
KW
✟127,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hi there,

So this is just a hypothetical: if a mutation ceases to provoke adaptation, to a particular selection pressure, will "Design" come to the rescue (where random change would only hinder)? Will "Design" ensure that the rest of the adaptation is fulfilled, before the creature gives up and takes flight? The point is "Design" is a greater strength at fulfilling adaptations, either sequentially or tangentially or reaffirmingly (complexly hard to instill). For every mutation, there are a number of things that "Design" could complete - is what I am saying. "Design" is not limited to maintaining the same outlook to every selection pressure.
Why are you suggesting "god of the gaps" when evolution science has tons of evidence for how mutations arise naturally and how they are selected naturally? If ID proponents want to claim ID as competing science they need to first do the hard work of research.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hi there,

So this is just a hypothetical: if a mutation ceases to provoke adaptation, to a particular selection pressure, will "Design" come to the rescue (where random change would only hinder)? Will "Design" ensure that the rest of the adaptation is fulfilled, before the creature gives up and takes flight? The point is "Design" is a greater strength at fulfilling adaptations, either sequentially or tangentially or reaffirmingly (complexly hard to instill). For every mutation, there are a number of things that "Design" could complete - is what I am saying. "Design" is not limited to maintaining the same outlook to every selection pressure.

This really is the cloak and dagger of "Evolution" that somehow "Evolution" has an answer to mutation, that "Design" does not. But when "Design" answers "sin", it answers the question of mutation pre-emptively: mutation does not become strong, unless you allow it to continue - but continuing is a question of faith not mutation. I want to believe I can be great, I get that, but I want to be great "lawfully" and substituting pressure for faith, is disingenuous, unless you really aim to be as weak as possible, while doing it.

I want to impress on you that faith works more dynamically, with selection pressure, than "consequence", there are a number of selection pressures working on people at anyone time, perfecting the response to a single mutation in no way addresses all those pressures, without faith compounding them to the one interpretation. What is an advance of mutation to one pressure, does not identify with others unless there is a way of comparing one adaptation to another - precisely what "Design" enables, both in stipulation (of what is possible) and flourishing (as to how well what is possible is known). You can't grease the monkey for multiple selection pressures and not have the greater response to adaptation slip through your fingers.

The important thing is character. If adaptation helps you build character, you are able to interpret what selection pressure is affecting you and how. If you have character, you can reorientate an adaptation to the most viable potential possible. Even predators do this, though not to the same extent. What is expected, is - if not a resurrection - a reaffirmation of the adaptations of the previous generation, that worked for the next. This is the whole point of honouring your parents - you have twice the reason to obey parents of the same kind, because the lineage is that much easier and lighter to pass on: it does not create a cognitive load, that needs to manipulate outcomes for specific mutations and their respective adaptations.

I don't know if you can grasp this: but the principality of congeniality is as adaptive or more of adaptations that work, than might be possible by untold chance. Refining adaptations for a single design, creates its own Evolution - a "genetic Revolution" if you will.



You are right, you need to be open-minded about what a mutation leaves you open to, but ignoring mutation can be made worthwhile, if the greater genetic revolution is enabled.

This is the true, differentiation of the species, that it happen through variety of design, not only compounding expectation of attenuation.

There are no random mutations. The entire system including every variation has been mapped and planned by the Creator. There are no "dead end" mutations. Every change has a purpose and plan.

1*DEeD-QSu5bcaDBkYLwh0qg.jpeg
 
Upvote 0

Frank Robert

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2021
2,276
1,121
KW
✟127,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There are no random mutations. The entire system including every variation has been mapped and planned by the Creator. There are no "dead end" mutations. Every change has a purpose and plan.
That is faith assertion, it is not science. You are entitled to your belief but your belief is not science, so all you are saying is SkyWriting does not affirm the science.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That is faith assertion, it is not science. You are entitled to your belief but your belief is not science, so all you are saying is SkyWriting does not affirm the science.

You are mistaken. I just understand the scientific data as not at all random. Because randomness doesn't exist. There are some scientists that think it does, but they are mostly amateurs. Professional scientists don't support randomness. They see design in nature. Some give God credit, some don't.
 
Upvote 0

Frank Robert

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2021
2,276
1,121
KW
✟127,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You are mistaken. I just understand the scientific data as not at all random. Because randomness doesn't exist. There are some scientists that think it does, but they are mostly amateurs. Professional scientists don't support randomness. They see design in nature. Some give God credit, some don't.
Fair enough, I could be mistaken.

Please reference the research of the "Professional" scientists who do not support randomness of mutations and their research that supports design in nature.

Also to be fair here is a nice example of ongoing research.
I suggest that you review Lenski's long term evolution experiment that shows the evolution of the cit+ trait. The cit+ trait meets Behe's definition of irreducible complexity, yet, the researchers were able to show that the evolution of the Cit+ occurred in three distinct phases:

(1) mutations accumulated that increased the rate of mutation to Cit+,
(2) the trait itself appeared in a weak form, and
(3) the trait was improved by later mutations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Also to be fair here is a nice example of ongoing research.
I suggest that you review Lenski's long term evolution experiment that shows the evolution of the cit+ trait. The cit+ trait meets Behe's definition of irreducible complexity, yet, the researchers were able to show that the evolution of the Cit+ occurred in three distinct phases:

(1) mutations accumulated that increased the rate of mutation to Cit+,
(2) the trait itself appeared in a weak form, and
(3) the trait was improved by later mutations.

"And all by design" is my answer. And my research would be the same as theirs, "why is this working?"
They would say the process is mindless, I would say it is beyond brilliant.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sesquiterpene

Well-Known Member
Sep 14, 2018
732
611
USA
✟160,019.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
You are mistaken. I just understand the scientific data as not at all random. Because randomness doesn't exist. There are some scientists that think it does, but they are mostly amateurs. Professional scientists don't support randomness. They see design in nature. Some give God credit, some don't.
Aha! A rare sighting of The No True Scientist fallacy.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why are you suggesting "god of the gaps" when evolution science has tons of evidence for how mutations arise naturally and how they are selected naturally? If ID proponents want to claim ID as competing science they need to first do the hard work of research.
The research is all the same. Intelligent design assumptions just make the work more fascinating knowing that thought went into what you are researching.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Aha! A rare sighting of The No True Scientist fallacy.
What I mean to say is that peer-review papers based on the idea of randomness are rare compared to the number of advocates in chat forums.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If you want to make a case for design, first you need to actually show design.
A person could design a leaf or pick one off a tree. So......how would I actually show design?

You can generate fractal patterns in math and you can find them in nature.
So which would you like to see?
dqpgdxyk-1354493195.jpg

plant-growth-spiral.jpg
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
12,261
6,453
29
Wales
✟350,314.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
A person could design a leaf or pick one off a tree. So......how would I actually show design?

I will admit that it is the very serious nub, but one that no Creationist can actually give a good answer to, especially since all claims of design are based on post hoc logic around stuff like the fossil record and biology and such.
How could you show design in something like mutation and evolution?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I will admit that it is the very serious nub, but one that no Creationist can actually give a good answer to, especially since all claims of design are based on post hoc logic around stuff like the fossil record and biology and such.
How could you show design in something like mutation and evolution?
That was my question. What "proof" would you like to see?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
12,261
6,453
29
Wales
✟350,314.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
That was my question. What would you like to see?

No, you asked 'how would?'
I asked 'how could?'

Admittedly, my barometer for showing design is fairly low. Like, I don't expect you to show me an infinitesimally microscopic image of a DNA which has a little plaque going "Made in Heaven". That would be cool, but silly. So, really almost anything you suggest, I could agree to saying "Yup, that's evidence of design." Almost.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Frank Robert

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2021
2,276
1,121
KW
✟127,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So have great faith in science then?
One does not need faith to affirm a scientific conclusions when their is a preponderance of evidence. Faith is when you assume a conclusion without evidence.
 
Upvote 0