A Messianic Gentile, someone tell me about this

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Here are a couple of things I would like to learn, of which Ive been wondering about and rather drawn to.

I read the original string dealing w/FAQ on Messianic Jews.

I want to know about possibly transferring my worship and study to the Messianic Jew/Gentile world.

Ive been a Christian, enjoying a Baptist service when possible for 22 years but in the last 3 yrs Ive been searching for something deeper. My father tells me Im jewish, but I do not believe him. I have one major hang up that maybe a better understanding can help with.

Do MJs believe that Jews are the Chosen People, or Christians?

Which was blessed by the Lord, Isaac or Ishmael?

My understanding is that in Jewish rejection, the Gentile world was offered Christ. So, is the Gentile world second best?

This second best thought almost makes me angry, but that is a very harsh word to use. You see, I almost get the feeling that if I transfer into this world of thought, as the Gentile I believe I am, my reality might be looked upon as second best at most.

So anyway if this meets the forum regulations (I think of segragation when I come to this CF site, I guess its something Ill have to get use to here), I am hoping to strike up an informative conversation with you, the "Messianic Jew". (merely a collective term as I do not know any Messianic Jews)

I send you my kindest regards,
RTH

 

[SonWorshipper]

Well if you don't mind a MJ perspective from a Messianic Gentile

Let's start with the easy one:

Which was blessed by the Lord, Isaac or Ishmael?

The answer is BOTH, however, Isaac was the child of the promise the L-rd gave to Abram. Abram ( and Sarai) figured that it wasn't coming to pass quickly enough so they thought they would "help the L-rd out" by way of Hagar.

But this child was not the child that the L-rd had in mind, since Sarai was Abrams sister, I think he wanted the bloodline pure, from Shem. Hagar was from Ham.

But Ismael was blessed See Genesis 17:20 The L-rd himself named him Ishmael (G-d pays attention)

But Isaac was the child of the promise of the L-rd Genesis 17:19 The covenant was to be passed down through him, and then through him to his son Jacob.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Do MJs believe that Jews are the Chosen People, or Christians?

This of course is harder.

For my understanding is this, The Jewish peoples were the ones from Abraham through Isaac and then through Jacob ( Israel) that the L-rd chose to bring about His plan of salvation to the world.

Rabbi Yeshau tells us himself : As he spoke to the Samaritan woman;

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews.

Rabbi Sha'ul tells us that blessings AND curses go first to the Jew and then the Gentile.

My understanding is that in Jewish rejection, the Gentile world was offered Christ. So, is the Gentile world second best?

Since the L-rd choose a certain people that He raised up and wed himself to, and went through much tribulation in getting them to follow His ways and not the ways of the world, and teaching them His plan of salvation in a yearly cycle, of course he would bring this to fruition to them first. Yeshua was born into that same people, and he clearly tells us that he came for the Lost Sheep of Israel. That is who needed to be reached first, how else to spread the good news? Of course it would be spread by the same people who had lived the life, lived the way, knowing the one true G-d, and intimately knowing His plan of salvation.

From there, of course he commissioned them to take this Good News out to the rest of the world, the ends of the earth.

But yes they came first because they Knew him first, Starting with Abraham.


This does not mean that the L-rd loves us less, or thinks we are a substitute, a replacement, NEVER! We who believe in Him, believe in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and we are grafted into the same tree., of which there is but ONE root.

If anything we can look at Israel (Jewish people) as our big brother, who was born before we were, but yet our Father loves us both.

The only dividing line is of both the Jew and Gentile of who accepts the final atonement and believes in He who made it.


I hope that helps a little.

May the L-rd bless you in your search and quench the thirst you have for truly seeking Him.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Is there a web site that you know of where I can see what the Messianic practice is all about?

I read through your postings and I thank you for taking the time. Ive studied the Abraham family line on several occasions for different purposes.

Did not Sarai switch her children on Abraham's death bed to give blessing to? Maybe I should re-read the passages and refresh my memory.

Do you feel as though this Abraham connection is the final authority on this matter? What I am wondering is if the purpose of Christ gave all inclusiveness, that whether Jew or Gentile, Christians-r-we and all of us therefore gain the promise given in Isaac.

So is this, for the Gentile, Jew by proxy?

In putting my thoughts together for this string, I am constantly reminded about the following:

Romans 2

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God

Whats up with vs 11?

Romans 2 also goes on to say:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Wow, whats up with those who know nothing of the law (Im assuming this is Jewish law??), yet still do well by it?

And, in that last section, vs. 17, who is being called a Jew, everyone - as in my thought of Jew by proxy?

Thanks for taking up this conversation w/me. I find this really interesting.

Sending Kind Regards,
RTH

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

In putting my thoughts together for this string, I am constantly reminded about the following:

Romans 2

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God

Whats up with vs 11?

Romans 2 also goes on to say:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Wow, whats up with those who know nothing of the law (Im assuming this is Jewish law??), yet still do well by it?

And, in that last section, vs. 17, who is being called a Jew, everyone - as in my thought of Jew by proxy?

Thanks for taking up this conversation w/me. I find this really interesting.

Sending Kind Regards,
RTH

Shabbat Shalom RTH,

Verse 11 is saying that YHWH treats everyone the same, he doesn't favor one over the other as Humans tend to treat some with more respect then others. I hope you understand that

I would call them the Instructions of YHWH that we should obey, The Torah. I am so glad you showed this scripture for I had forgotten where it was
I feel once we Non-Jews are grafted into the True Vine which is Yahshuah Mashiach(The Messiah), we are considered part of Israel and therefore should observe the Torah.
I just don't see how so many that say they study the scriptures don't see that? Ever since the Messiah and the original Apostles and Disciples were gone from the scene we see many Non-Jews have become believers in the Messiah and only can understand YHWH the Father, Yahshuah Mashiach the Son, and Yahuah’s Ruach in terms of the Non-Jewish Religions they grew up in. Of course you know who Hasatan is don't you? I would say you have read about him and how he is out to bring confusion to the world and bring division amoungst the followers of Yahshuah Mashiach.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The Good News According to Matthew
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'
...

7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' 23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'


The Good News According to Luke
16:16 The Torah and the Prophets were until Yochanan. From that time the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Torah to become void.
...
23:50 Behold, a man named Joseph, who was a member of the council, a good and righteous man 51 (he had not consented to their counsel and deed), from Arimathaea, a city of the Judeans, who was also waiting for the Kingdom of God: 52 this man went to Pilate, and asked for Yeshua's body. 53 He took it down, and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb that was cut in stone, where no one had ever been laid. 54 It was the day of the Preparation, and the Sabbath was drawing near. 55 The women, who had come with him out of Galilee, followed after, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid. 56 They returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
If these people who followed and Believed what Yeshua taught then why are they Obeying the Commandments of Torah? I can't remember, yet isn't the preparation of spices and ointments also taught in the Torah?


Yochanan's First Letter
5:1 Whoever believes that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. Whoever loves the father also loves the child who is born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

So now what is a Non-Jew who comes to believe in the Yahshuah Mashiach the Son? I would say they are part of Israel if they obey what was Instructed by YHWH.

Shabbat Shalom,
Tag

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Morning Greetings to you all!

It is such a wonderful morning to be posting with you. How I hope we all will be blessed in some way from this string.

Shabbat Shalom RTH,

Verse 11 is saying that YHWH treats everyone the same, he doesn't favor one over the other as Humans tend to treat some with more respect then others. I hope you understand that

I do understand. But I also believe I see instances where treatment is different, but for purpose. I believe the Lord is harsher toward Jews because of their unfaithful history with Him. I did indeed read Romans 11 again (thanks for the suggestion Pray4Israel). In the KJV of this New Testiment chapter, I am looking at the word choices that seems to clue us in to the differences I believe I see in the Lord's thoughts/treatment toward Jews vs. Gentiles. I actually see a roller coaster of thought here.


This section of scripture seems to say it all, to me at least:

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again

Ok, for the Jew this text says:

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off ..... because of unbelief they were broken off ..... For if God spared not the natural branches on them which fell, severity..... And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again

For the Gentile this text says:

that I might be grafted in ..... thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear...... take heed lest he also spare not thee toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

Looking at it this way, seperated out, we see that yes the Jews in unbelief were cut off and severly so. BUT GOD will bring them back in.

The Gentiles however, by faith become part, but are warned - stay in line or get cut off.

I think there are definately two lines of thought here, the exception to the Lord's favor for one over the other. I believe we see here, more is done to and for the Jews than anyone else. The Jews are high maintence!

I feel once we Non-Jews are grafted into the True Vine which is Yahshuah Mashiach(The Messiah), we are considered part of Israel and therefore should observe the Torah.

Alright, knowing my current lack of understanding of Messianic principles, I believe I know that the Torah is the old testiment, correct?

Within that, contains the various laws that the Lord gave to his choosen.

There in the old testiment, how many Gentiles are included in this effort - either given law to share or following law?

I just don't see how so many that say they study the scriptures don't see that? Ever since the Messiah and the original Apostles and Disciples were gone from the scene we see many Non-Jews have become believers in the Messiah and only can understand YHWH the Father, Yahshuah Mashiach the Son, and Yahuah’s Ruach in terms of the Non-Jewish Religions they grew up in.

From what I take notice of in your questioning, I am left wondering if you consider Christ as a new "law" replacing (or updating so to speak) the old law, the Torah, of which the Jews of ole could hardly follow correctly. It seemed no one on earth could live up to par for long within that law. I believe with Christ coming on the scene, the Lord "cut some breaks" so to speak and Christ took the place of much of the old law.

Im curious, what part or parts of these laws are you seeing the Non-Jewish religions not following from the Torah?

Of course you know who Hasatan is don't you? I would say you have read about him and how he is out to bring confusion to the world and bring division amoungst the followers of Yahshuah Mashiach.

Here is some interesting info on Hasatan:


The name Satan comes from the hebrew ha-satan , meaning " the adversary " . In the Old testament this term is used exclusively to describe either the enemies of God or the enemies of the Israelite race in general. Not until the advert of the New Testament , the collection of the books and gospels relating to the period subsequent to the birth of the Christian era , does the term ha - satan take on this all - important role . At this point Satan becomes an angel fallen from grace and expelled from heaven , along with his fellow - rebels , by the archangel Michael . References to Satan´s own fall appear in passages such as Luke 10:18 , where Christ is said to have " beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven " .


I see the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments as building blocks. Just as the Law seems to be that way.

It starts with Adam and some simple instruction of which he and Eve have trouble with. From there we see Adam's line progress w/the Lord and the Laws get very specific thanks to the innervention of the "hasatan" forces within the world outside the Garden. Yet, things dont improve, with specific guidlines Adam's line still struggles. I think the promise within the New Testiment brings simplicity back into the picture. The law is within Christ now. All the verses you have listed below are Christ.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The Good News According to Matthew
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'
...

7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' 23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'


The Good News According to Luke
16:16 The Torah and the Prophets were until Yochanan. From that time the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Torah to become void.
...
23:50 Behold, a man named Joseph, who was a member of the council, a good and righteous man 51 (he had not consented to their counsel and deed), from Arimathaea, a city of the Judeans, who was also waiting for the Kingdom of God: 52 this man went to Pilate, and asked for Yeshua's body. 53 He took it down, and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb that was cut in stone, where no one had ever been laid. 54 It was the day of the Preparation, and the Sabbath was drawing near. 55 The women, who had come with him out of Galilee, followed after, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid. 56 They returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
If these people who followed and Believed what Yeshua taught then why are they Obeying the Commandments of Torah? I can't remember, yet isn't the preparation of spices and ointments also taught in the Torah?


Yochanan's First Letter
5:1 Whoever believes that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. Whoever loves the father also loves the child who is born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

I have just one problem with what you summerize below:

So now what is a Non-Jew who comes to believe in the Yahshuah Mashiach the Son? I would say they are part of Israel if they obey what was Instructed by YHWH.

Death bed converstion or acceptance. No time to follow written law, no time for baptism, no time to make ammends - just acceptance of Christ, then death. I believe the Lord accepts such a person into Heaven as Christ is the Law fulfilled.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

I have just one problem with what you summerize below:

So now what is a Non-Jew who comes to believe in the Yahshuah Mashiach the Son? I would say they are part of Israel if they obey what was Instructed by YHWH.

Death bed converstion or acceptance. No time to follow written law, no time for baptism, no time to make ammends - just acceptance of Christ, then death. I believe the Lord accepts such a person into Heaven as Christ is the Law fulfilled.

YHWH knows the heart of Man. If the man knew he should have done what YHWH said to do and didn't while he lived then what do you think. If we deny Him then He will Deny us. Ignorance isn't an excuse.

The Good News According to Matthew
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'
...

7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' 23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Did you even read the scriptures that I quoted? Can you deny that the Torah is what is Commanded?

Tag

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Morning greetings Tag (I think that name is aok to use for you)

Im thankful you have posted a reply. And I am also grateful for the chance to offer some clarity to the postings I think you have misunderstood.

I went back to re-think why this discussion is in place. I am hoping to gain a better understanding of the Messanic principles and practice vs what I already know, as an Christian with evangelical tendencies. I am wondering if a Messianic view will be deeper and more gradifying than what I have known in the past. My family will be making a big household move within the year and it would be a perfect time to transition into a different, deeper celebration of our Christianity.

So, with this in mind, I thank you for the assistance you have offered and hope I can continue to learn.

[/color]


Death bed converstion or acceptance. No time to follow written law, no time for baptism, no time to make ammends - just acceptance of Christ, then death. I believe the Lord accepts such a person into Heaven as Christ is the Law fulfilled.

YHWH knows the heart of Man. If the man knew he should have done what YHWH said to do and didn't while he lived then what do you think. If we deny Him then He will Deny us. Ignorance isn't an excuse.

You know, I didnt even think of my example as ignorance for excuse. Actully, I had a lifetime of denile in mind. A man can live denying Christ all his life (reminds me of many of today's Jews), yet on his deathbed, he can realize what he has missed out on, accept the Lord into his heart and be in heaven upon actual death. Where was the law? It was not followed in that lifetime and after said decision, there was no time to practice or follow it. The law was Christ. In this mindset, I think of the robber who was on the cross beside Christ and what Christ said to that robber helps us to understand the absolute importance of Christ over the law.

Did you even read the scriptures that I quoted? Can you deny that the Torah is what is Commanded?

Tag

Oh wow! I would not give up any chance to read scripture!

Can I deny that the Torah is the command? Why NO! As I see things, the Torah is in Christ, and references to following commands are references to following Christ. They are one in the same, "I am the word and the word is in me"....

I asked you what was it you saw from non-Jewish religions that keep them from following the Torah as you suggest they do. I still wonder about that, especially seeing as though I am thinking of making a transfer to a "Jewish" based celebration of Christianity. I see Christ and the Torah as one in the same, much like the trinity, with the exception that Christ fulfills the torah. Christ is the law, and in following Christ you follow the necessary aspects of the Torah. I can think of ceremonial aspects that, say the Baptist church I currently attend on occasion, would not do. What else is there that you see non-Jewish religions lacking where the Torah is concerned?

As I see things now, the Torah was a building block of the promise of Christ. The relationship w/the Lord was something the Jew needed of the Torah for the connection. Trouble was, that Torah was mighty difficult for the Jew to follow. There are plenty of OT examples of Jews falling short of the Torah demands. So much so, the Lord built something more as help and support for the Jew (and later the Gentile). The Lord gave them Christ. Many of the taxing aspects of the Torah Christ replaced - such as sacarficing and things like that. Yet, if you are following Christ, you are following the Torah, are you not?

I look forward to hearing your further thoughts on the matter, if you are so inclined to do so. Im most interested in hearing how this applies to Messianic practice vs. what I already know.

I do thank you for your time in this most interesting conversation!

Sending Kind Regards,
RTH

 

[sojeru]

My understanding is that in Jewish rejection, the Gentile world was offered Christ. So, is the Gentile world second best?

This second best thought almost makes me angry, but that is a very harsh word to use. You see, I almost get the feeling that if I transfer into this world of thought, as the Gentile I believe I am, my reality might be looked upon as second best at most.

there is a secret in understanding the entire thing with "the gentiles".
in the bible "OT" there is in Jeremiah where G-d divorces Yisrael (the northern tribes) but DOES NOT divorse Judah.
Yisrael went into exile first to Ashur(assyria) then disperssed into all the world (the world of the gentiles) and basically forgotten who they were.

Judah remained- and they did not forget. yet all of the tribes will be saved by Judah, a chief tribe- si in a way- all of Yisrael will be called jews, YET, since Joseph is also chief, even though they are all called jews- they will be collectively called Yisrael.

ok, so how about the gentile?

With this entire topic i only have a limited amount of knowledge so i cant tell the difference between a gentile who is JUST a gentile and a gentile who was once one of the sons of Yisrael.

THAT IS WHERE the mystery is.

so why did all of this take place?
easy, a promise G-d made to Avraham.
"You are now called father of many nations"
and "many nations will be blessed by you", Avraham, the hebrew.

so it was by the hebrews that Avraham is able to fulfill this.
The disperssion of the northern tribes into the world because of disobedience.
the disobedience of Judah and rejection of Mashiach YHshWH, they didnt have a land of their own anymore so they had to go out and had no excuse not to gather their lost brothers.
and since not knowing who their lost brothers are- they have to bring the news to eveyone.
and everyone who hears is a part of it.
I believe in the decisions that the people make- they are either restored as a son of noah or a son of Israel with the title of "jew".
For Hashem himself directs the heart.
remember, he held pharoahs decisions.

an awesome and mysterious G-D we have.

so second best? no such thing- the sons of Noah exited before we did(jews and Israelis) so in a sence we are all equal for Noah fathered us.
But now we father the decendants of noah.
We are all on equal plain

shalom u'bracha

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Morning greetings Tag (I think that name is aok to use for you)

Im thankful you have posted a reply. And I am also grateful for the chance to offer some clarity to the postings I think you have misunderstood.

Shalom RaptureTicketHolder,
With you grateful and pleasent deemener you bring humbleness to my heart. I do speak with bluntness much of the time, but am trying to bring understanding the best way I know how. And thank you for correcting my misunderstanding.

I went back to re-think why this discussion is in place. I am hoping to gain a better understanding of the Messanic principles and practice vs what I already know, as an Christian with evangelical tendencies. I am wondering if a Messianic view will be deeper and more gradifying than what I have known in the past. My family will be making a big household move within the year and it would be a perfect time to transition into a different, deeper celebration of our Christianity.

So, with this in mind, I thank you for the assistance you have offered and hope I can continue to learn.

We all should be Truth Seekers at all times. I have to tell you that I have only been in Messianic Judaism for two months now. I have poured over many websites and forums and writings on Messianic Judaism that I feel like I am bursting open into what I feel is teaching Truth. May our Father in Heaven YHWH Bless you with a Transition that brings you closer to Him through Yeshua.
You are welcome, yet all Thanks is YHWH's

You know, I didnt even think of my example as ignorance for excuse. Actully, I had a lifetime of denile in mind. A man can live denying Christ all his life (reminds me of many of today's Jews), yet on his deathbed, he can realize what he has missed out on, accept the Lord into his heart and be in heaven upon actual death. Where was the law? It was not followed in that lifetime and after said decision, there was no time to practice or follow it. The law was Christ. In this mindset, I think of the robber who was on the cross beside Christ and what Christ said to that robber helps us to understand the absolute importance of Christ over the law.

You are very correct in what you say. Thank you for the correction of my misunderstanding.

Oh wow! I would not give up any chance to read scripture!

Can I deny that the Torah is the command? Why NO! As I see things, the Torah is in Christ, and references to following commands are references to following Christ. They are one in the same, "I am the word and the word is in me"....

I asked you what was it you saw from non-Jewish religions that keep them from following the Torah as you suggest they do. I still wonder about that, especially seeing as though I am thinking of making a transfer to a "Jewish" based celebration of Christianity. I see Christ and the Torah as one in the same, much like the trinity, with the exception that Christ fulfills the torah. Christ is the law, and in following Christ you follow the necessary aspects of the Torah. I can think of ceremonial aspects that, say the Baptist church I currently attend on occasion, would not do. What else is there that you see non-Jewish religions lacking where the Torah is concerned?

In what Yeshua taught, we aren't supposed to have a hierarchy in terms of hoarding it over each other which I have seen in many churches because you can't question the doctrines of the Church without worry of be kicked out of that Church because to them it is written in Stone per se.
So many Churches teach that for instance the Shabbat(Sabbath) is either changed to Sunday or is irrelevent to have to keep.
The Good News According to Matthew
5:17 Don't think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.


Has Heaven and Earth passed away? Have all things been completed?
NO!!! on both counts. For when the Heaven and Earth pass away all things will have been accomplished.

The Good News According to Luke
16:16 The Torah and the Prophets were until Yochanan. From that time the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Torah to become void.
...
23:50 Behold, a man named Joseph, who was a member of the council, a good and righteous man 51 (he had not consented to their counsel and deed), from Arimathaea, a city of the Judeans, who was also waiting for the Kingdom of God: 52 this man went to Pilate, and asked for Yeshua's body. 53 He took it down, and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb that was cut in stone, where no one had ever been laid. 54 It was the day of the Preparation, and the Sabbath was drawing near. 55 The women, who had come with him out of Galilee, followed after, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid. 56 They returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

If these people who followed and Believed what Yeshua taught then why are they Obeying the Commandments of Torah?


Yochanan's First Letter 5:1 Whoever believes that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. Whoever loves the father also loves the child who is born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.
If you have Faith then you learn what you should do to please G_D don't you? And G_D did give the Torah as a guide for us to live our lives didn't he? Who then shall we obey Man's doctrines or G_D's ways He has taught since Moses? Also remember Faith without works is Dead. So what works are we to do? Remember all the Torah is summed up in what Yeshua said. So shall we keep the Sabbath? I sure would think so. Am I keeping Torah to be saved? I suppose in a sense I am since it is works that I am doing because of my Faith I have in Yeshua.

As I see things now, the Torah was a building block of the promise of Christ. The relationship w/the Lord was something the Jew needed of the Torah for the connection. Trouble was, that Torah was mighty difficult for the Jew to follow. There are plenty of OT examples of Jews falling short of the Torah demands. So much so, the Lord built something more as help and support for the Jew (and later the Gentile). The Lord gave them Christ. Many of the taxing aspects of the Torah Christ replaced - such as sacarficing and things like that. Yet, if you are following Christ, you are following the Torah, are you not?

I am learning what is expected of me in following Torah, so yes I am following what is in Torah.
The reason I see the Torah has became a burden to follow was because the Fence laws that were added by the Scribes and Pharisees to help keep the people from breaking the Torah. And in adding so much to the Torah it did become a Burden that no one could uphold. If you read what Yeshua has said to the Scribes and Pharisees you see Him correcting them.
As to which of the commands in the Torah we are supposed to keep, I would say at the bear minimum we should keep those ones that we are able to. Since there isn't a Temple we obviously can't do the Sacrifical laws since Yeshua is Our High Priest, who is our Mediator between us and YHWH, who also was our Sacrifice for our sins.

I look forward to hearing your further thoughts on the matter, if you are so inclined to do so. Im most interested in hearing how this applies to Messianic practice vs. what I already know.

I do thank you for your time in this most interesting conversation!

Sending Kind Regards,
RTH

I thank you for your words of wisdom, for I still yearn to learn more from those who have a heart that is after YHWH.
I would recommend going to a Messianic Judaism Assembly and experiencing it for yourself. Then make you decision after prayer of course. There are divisions in Messianic Judaism as well, so keep that in mind. I myself feel that if we as gentiles come to Yeshua then we are grafted into Israel and should observe Torah. Which you will probably hear from many Messianics that gentiles don't need to observe Torah, which I disagree with. After all there is ONE FAITH, ONE YHWH, ONE MEDIATOR, ONE RUACH(SPIRIT), etc.

In Kind Regards,
Shalom,
Tag

 

[ILJ]

Peace to everyone and God bless,

I have been attending a Baptist Church for the last 20yrs. and I have never been taught that the Chritians were over the Jews so to speak.The book of Revelation is about the restoration, after all the horrors involved, of the Jews finally embracing THE Messiah.Yeshua/Jesus. I have never been taught anything other than the Jews were the chosen, through Isaac. I do agree that Ishmael was promised a blessing too. It was also said that he woud be a wild ***, and his hand against everyone.Sounds kind of true to what is going on today, especially when one views the hatred towards the Jews from the muslims, and Arab neighbors.

I have dealt on the website I moderate, with alot of muslims, and they are completley in hatred of the Jews.Many deny that, but there posts declare their real feelings.It is our duties, as believers in Jesus/Yeshua to bring His message to all people. We cannot dismiss the Jews that don't accept Him, or the Arabs. I know many Arab Christians, whose conversions to Christ, has brought about a beautiful changing of their hearts from hate and anger, to love for all people.In short, we cannot overlook anyone.

Peace and God bless all.

YBIC/Y
ILJ

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Hi Tag

After a brief vacation into Canada, I am now getting back into the conversations I enjoyed a week ago.

Im curious:

With you saying you follow the Torah, what exactly does that mean. What are you following that a "plain ole Chrisitian" is not?

Is the Torah more important to you than the New Testiment?

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

I'm curious:

Is following YHWH not more important then some Doctrines that Man has written up in his OWN Understanding?

Well that is how I see it. Man has doctrines he has written with understanding from a Gentile perspective of what was written in the B'rit Khadashah(NT) and they have thrown out the Torah when in fact Yeshua(Jesus) didn't Abolish the Torah(Law)

Tag

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Hey hey

Are you talking about man following church doctrine?

You still have not told me what in the Torah is followed solely by a Messianic Jew vs what is followed by a plain ole Christian, unless church doctrine is your answer for the Gentile.

If thats the case, it does suprise me that one would believe the entirety of church doctrine is man made.

IN many cases, doctrine is the Bible itself. So, in your thinking, I can hope you can give an example.

For church doctrine, the OT is a building block, not the be all and end all. You cant have a temple without its foundation, but you cant say the foundation is the temple. Completion is in order, and the NT did just that, I believe.

When I think of your last question posed to me, I am reminded of the Mormons. They do just what your question referrs to. And with that I totally agree. Same with many who strickly follow the Pope in the Catholic setting. There manmade doctrine rule. But you might want to reconsider that this applies to most or even many Gentile settings. I think you would be suprised at just how many are in line w/the Bible standards, rather then man.

So, what do you do from the Torah that I may not?

 

[Sabian]

So, what do you do from the Torah that I may not?
Well Some baptised agree that christmas and easter are incorrect. Do you?
I try to keep the Sabbaths and feast days. I study the sabbath and feast days.
I keep unclead food LAW's. I do not plant any thing on the 7'th year.
I am not a soldier a man of the military. But I study those LAW's .
If I were a military man I would Keep those LAW's the best I could.
I am not a judge or part of that system.
I study those LAW's but they for the most part do not apply to my life Now.
But I will teach them to my children for they my apply in their life.
I do not apply laws that are LAW's for women. I am a MAN.
I do not keep LAW's pertaining to animal sacrifice.
Or the LAW's pertaining to the physical Priesthood and Physical Temple.
For YHWH does not Dwell in a Physical Temple any longer.
Realty and Property LAW's? I would live on my bosses Property
and own on Land.
Social and welfare LAW's I study a little and Try to do what I know.
Sorcery LAW's Lev 20:27
Blasphemy LAW's
Worship of false Elohim Ex 20 1-5
I do the best to my knowledge of keeping these LAW's.
LAW's about Teaching and raising children We do What we understand.
Do you see what I'm getting at. I should do what I am able to do.
I should do what I understand to do, What applies to my Life.
One thing is For sure I do not understand every thing the FATHER
would Like to see me do.
And I fail at things I do understand all the Time.
Pray for correction and understanding.
It is not my place to judge You or your understanding I do not know you ,
I do not know the LAW's you do understand.
Nor am I a Judge who can burden you with any form of punishment.
All I can do is explain my veiw.
I just touched on a few LAW's in scripture.
I figure Marriage LAW's are a good study.
Some say that their are 613 LAW's and you have to keep them all.
That is silly How could I keep a LAW that pertains to women.
Or if I never had a child Why would I keep a LAW that pertains To parenthood.
It would be a good study for me and I should learn about the LAW.
The answer to your Question,
Also pertains to how YAHSHUA kept the LAW's.
There was no fault found in YAHSHUA.
YAHSHUA was with out spot or blemish.
So looking at how YAHSHUA kept the LAW's is very Important.
The LAW's of YHWH are not a burden.
There are a few examples of the Pharsees Judgeing YAHSHUA .
But They did not stone him Then and there was no fault found in him.
So YAHSHUA could not have been breaking those LAW's.
Even in the eye's of the Pharsees, Sadducees and Scribes.
Or they would have put him to death for that.

 

[Sabian]

YeremYah 8:7,8 Even the stork in the sky knows the
appropriate season; turtledove, swallow and crane observe
their time of migration. But my people do not know YHWH's
laws!
8 How can you say, 'We are wise, since we have YHWH's law?'
Look how it has been falsified by the lying pen of the scribes!

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Shalom RaptureTicketHolder,

I am still learning what parts of Torah we are able to keep. I know that the sacrificial parts are fulfilled by Yeshua since HE is our High Priest. About the other parts I am still learning.

Shabbat one of the difference between Main-line Christianity and Messianic Judaism. Since the Roman Emporer outlawed the Sabbath Christianity hasn't kept it ever since. Some would say I am being legalistic. Am I? No. I can say the same for them being legalistic as well, since they keep what was made LAW by a Gentile Roman Emporer. So who LAWS should we keep? YHWH's or MAN's. Since we know the LAWS(TORAH which means Instructions) of YHWH in the Tanakh and the corrections made by Yeshua, who is YHWH's Salvation, we have a Foundation to live from. Keeping in mind that only Through Yeshua can we have Salvation.
If salvation is from the Jews then why did the Gentile Roman Emporer throw out all that was Jewish(In my opinion, Hebrewic). In my opinion he threw out all that was Jewish because he wanted to keep the population happy which came from a background in god's made by their own hands.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

 

[Cephas]

I never understood why the christian feels the need to be freed from the "law" (Torah).

God himself calls it LIFE, and tells his people to choose his ways, which again are LIFE. Does what God call life all of a sudden become an abomination in the eyes of man?

David praises the ways of the Lord in every way possible in psalm 119. Even calling it the Law of Liberty which most christians feel is a term coined in the new testament. Not so.

When I read psalm 119, I feel a deep sense of sorrow everytime I hear someone say the Torah is "an old dead word" "weak and beggarly" bondage" and a slough of other insulting words. Are people actually thinking before they speak what they do? Every idle word we speak, we will have to account for on that day.

We can see quite clearly where lawlessness leads. Look at all of the confusion out there amongst so called Christianity. Which is one of the major reasons I had to take a step back and re-examine my belief system.

If Christianity is correct, in that when God said his statutes and commandments were meant to be observed FOREVER, that forever only meant until the Messiah came, then I am very confused about the God who spoke to Moses.

Furthermore, if forever is only for a time, then what about eternal life and spending FOREVER with the messiah? How long will forever last this time around?

If you are serious about searching out Messianic beliefs, here is a good source to help you out. It will answer a great deal of questions. At least it did for me;

http://www.aleph-tav.org/TR-CON.html

 

[ServingHim]

I never understood why the christian feels the need to be freed from the "law" (Torah).

I have wondered the same thing. I mean, if someone hasn't learned about Torah then I can understand. But when you bring up the topic of Torah observance or mentioning that perhaps we should still be following G-d's word, some people get extremely hostile. My mom hates it that we now follow Shabbat. Since we don't observe Sunday, she says we are under legalism and not grace and we have lost our salvation. She gets angry if we bring up Torah at all. Why wouldn't someone who professes to love G-d want to follow His instruction?

 

[SonWorshipper]

Welcome Serving Him!

In answer to your question, if it wasn't retorical, I would say "conviction". They are convicted and know that they aren't truly following G-ds ways or have been indocttinated into thinking that they don't have to follow them because "they aren't Jewish". But deep in their heart the L-rd is telling them that is wrong, but they can't turn away from it. Because they want the "freedom of the New covanant". While they don't understand even what that means