"a man must provide for the needs of his family" ....but what if you can't?

[ido]

If that's what people want to do it's obviously none of my business. As I said, there are even times it makes finanical sense. I mean a part time retail job isn't going to even cover daycare costs most likely so there'd be no point in just working for the sake of it either. OTOH, I'm not much for the idea that staying a home is somehow a right bestowed on women and if that's not possible than the guy is a lazy scum bag. In the farming soceities that existed during the era in which the books of the Bible were written labor divison existed when there were enough farm hands to make it happen. If there weren't everyone worked the fields. Frankly, a huge amount of it simply comes down to social instructions for people 2,000 years ago don't apply to modern soceity one for one.

Agreed. Should a woman want to stay home (and not all women do), then it should be either b/c her income wouldn't supplement the household enough to cover more than daycare expenses (which are astronomical!) or b/c the husband's income is sufficient and they are in agreement that she will stay home with the kids. I also agree that some of the things written into the Bible were specific to that day and time - not necessarily things that we can realistically apply to our lives now.

As for me personally, I'm a teamwork kind of guy. Not to turn everything in life into a hockey analogy, but it's incredibily stressful when forwards won't play defensive hockey and defenders won't chip in on offense. In the same way I don't think harmony is increased in the home when two people split themselves off into two unique and completely separate roles. A perfect 50/50 share on everything isn't possible in most cases, but I just feel when everyone is sharing the load across the board it makes life easier for everyone and avoids some of the silly illogical problems we see in modern soceity. For example: it's simply not logical to complain that a man isn't involved enough in child care when he's expected to finanically support the entire household. I don't think there's anything wrong with the notion of the modern involved father, but there are only so many hours in a day. For more father involvement in child care to be possible then women need to do some paid work.

I think it's up to each couple to determine what works for them. Some couples are happy with traditional gender roles and some prefer more of a blend. I lean towards traditional roles, but don't think they are set in stone and that the lines can't be blurred - for example, one spouse or the other carries a bit more of the household burden depending on their work schedule.

And, yes, I agree that if dad is working two jobs or ridiculous hours to keep the family afloat and never sees his wife or kids, then the wife needs to be helping with the financial welfare of the family.

 

[ido]

A good friend of mine told me just today that when his daughter turns 18 he will have no reason to live(he strongly implicated he will kill himself). He loves his daughter to bits...but is only allowed to see her once a week and it's killing him - and to top it off, his former wife owns a house free and clear and he has to rent...because - well - in the seperation one of the biggest determining factors was that he is male. GAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH....

I've no idea how old his daughter is now, but I would think that her coming of legal age would give him more of a reason to live since she will be free to visit him whenever she pleases.

I don't know the circumstances surrounding his divorce, so I won't comment on the rest of it. But, I would hope that you are encouraging him to do what he can to not lose faith/hope and to find other ways to keep himself involved with her (phone calls, cards in the mail, attending school/extracurricular events, etc.) - rather than letting him wallow in the depression of not being able to see his daughter more.

Divorce stinks - especially when one parent sees fit to leave the situation unbalanced. But, for every situation like your friends, there is another situation where the non-custodial parent is a deadbeat and/or chooses not to be involved in the child(ren)'s life.

 

[SonicBOOM]

Begin rant...

I don't know about any of the other men here - but generally, women who's primary focus is on the income of a man makes my blood boil. I mean, I realise there are practical considerations, such as area where one lives, enough to buy clothes and food etc, and for raising children - but beyond that, there are so many men that *do* treat women badly because they think of them based on how too many act - like their genitals/looks are up for the highest bidding. And what does that make them?

My Gosh, I basically disowned my entire extended family after my wife died (most of whom were church goers) - because the majority of what they valued in life (and what they spoke about) was the latest they had in technology (T.V's, disc players etc) - the size of their house and what they had in it, and generally the things they could buy based on their income - which all amounted (in my mind) to stupid *boasting rights* and *keeping up with the Jones's*.

The majority of them were all there to impress each other and compete based on income and possessions and it frankly made me ill.

A good friend of mine told me just today that when his daughter turns 18 he will have no reason to live(he strongly implicated he will kill himself). He loves his daughter to bits...but is only allowed to see her once a week and it's killing him - and to top it off, his former wife owns a house free and clear and he has to rent...because - well - in the seperation one of the biggest determining factors was that he is male. GAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH....

yeah...... I don't wanna be so naive as to say that all the good men are poor and all the bad men are rich..... but it seems [expecaully in the church] that this seems to be the case.

here's just a few stories I've heard.

1. I've heard of a man who made about 5k a month and he was so unbelievably greedy that his wife and kids were living in poverty while he was living in luxery.... the reason? He refused to share his money even with his own family.

2. I know a man who's whole philosophy is gathered around his income...... he veiws his wife as nothing more than a baby machine..... they have 12 kids..... whom the man takes 0 responsibility for because "it's not his job". He doesn't beleive in any kind of birth control.... yet he demands his wife have sex with him whenever he wishes.... which results in LOTS of children.... and as soon as any children are born the man puts 100% of the burdon on his wife and refuses to even lift a finger.

He to.... deprives his wife and kids of the lump some of his wealth. this man's wife is a wreck.....


the morel of the story is this. Ladies? What do you want in a man? If you look for a man just for his money.... you will naturally attract a man who lives ONLY for his money. If money is the only thing you want from a man...... you probably will get just what your asking for.


here's something for everyone to consider. What if..... just what if the more poor men in the church are those who really don't care about money at all? What if they are true and wonderful men of God who will do what Paul told them to do and lay their life down for their wife?

 

[lostaquarium]

the morel of the story is this. Ladies? What do you want in a man? If you look for a man just for his money.... you will naturally attract a man who lives ONLY for his money. If money is the only thing you want from a man...... you probably will get just what your asking for.

You're implying that rich men are rich because they want money more. I don't think that's the case. I think everyone, generally, wants money about the same amount. Those who end up rich are those who have the opportunities to become rich. There are greedy people in both categories, in about the same proportions.

here's something for everyone to consider. What if..... just what if the more poor men in the church are those who really don't care about money at all? What if they are true and wonderful men of God who will do what Paul told them to do and lay their life down for their wife?

I don't think poverty is linked to godliness. If you're poor and godly, that's great, but I don't think one necessarily leads to the other. What about a rich man who gives away 80% of his earnings, and treats his wife with the utmost respect?

 

[nhisname]

honestly this distresses me. I have come from a very poor family [unchristian as well] and I probably will end up falling in their footsteps..... I just can not make a super lot amount of money and my emotional and mental issues even make working incredibly difficult for me [not impossible mind you].

Now I'm not saying a godly man is a 30 year old man who lives with his mommy. But I will say that some christian men are very very poor..... and over-looked and dismissed.

honestly..... why is this the 1# dealbreaker for christian women? It makes me feel like you want me only for my wallet. It makes me SCARED to make alot of money for fear of attracting gold-diggers who use the "provide for the needs of the family" to excuse their selfishness. If this is really all it comes down to is money? I think i'd rather not marry.

thoughts?

So I could stay home with kids, my husband worked 2 jobs.

 

[GQ Chris]

There isn't anything Godly about suffering due to having made some very foolish decisions with respect to finances, in this sense anyone can suffer and there isn't anything Godly or spiritual about it.

 

[SonicBOOM]

You're implying that rich men are rich because they want money more. I don't think that's the case. I think everyone, generally, wants money about the same amount. Those who end up rich are those who have the opportunities to become rich. There are greedy people in both categories, in about the same proportions.




I don't think poverty is linked to godliness. If you're poor and godly, that's great, but I don't think one necessarily leads to the other. What about a rich man who gives away 80% of his earnings, and treats his wife with the utmost respect?

I'm not denying this but my point is simply that if a woman's number 1 deal-breaker is money.... than they will naturally draw men who's number 1 goal is money.... it's kind of how the cards will be drawn to you by the laws of pick up and discard..... if your number 1 deal breaker is money than you won't focas on anything else. So if a man is poor but is very godly.... you will discard him..... but if a man is rich but very ungodly..... that'll be who you choose.

it's quite simple really.

 

[SonicBOOM]

There isn't anything Godly about suffering due to having made some very foolish decisions with respect to finances, in this sense anyone can suffer and there isn't anything Godly or spiritual about it.

of course this assumes that everyone is dealt the exact same hand and the world works on absulute laws of cause and effect..... an idea so ignorant that you mide as well beleive that the moon is made of cheese.

 

[Crosscheck]

Well, as a matter of logic earning more is typically the result of working a lot more. The reality is if you're earning 6 figures you aren't working a 40 hour week.

 

[IDDQD]

Well, as a matter of logic earning more is typically the result of working a lot more. The reality is if you're earning 6 figures you aren't working a 40 hour week.

This, sadly.

):

 

[SonicBOOM]

Well, as a matter of logic earning more is typically the result of working a lot more. The reality is if you're earning 6 figures you aren't working a 40 hour week.

of course this doesn't consider wages, salary and the like. It doesn't consider how much the boss actually lets the employee work and whether or not the lack of hours is due to the work ethic of the employee or the unjust behavior of the employer.....

it also doesn't consider what goes on at home [sense we are talking about marrege]. It doesn't consider how lonely the wife and kids are.......


maybe I'm an idealist.... but I don't think the world is quite this simple. Anyone who believes that poverty is a result of sin [for lack of better words] and prosperity is a result of good choices either lives their life very sheltered from the real world..... or they have had success served to them on a silver platter their entire life.

 

[Crosscheck]

of course this doesn't consider wages, salary and the like. It doesn't consider how much the boss actually lets the employee work and whether or not the lack of hours is due to the work ethic of the employee or the unjust behavior of the employer.....

it also doesn't consider what goes on at home [sense we are talking about marrege]. It doesn't consider how lonely the wife and kids are.......


maybe I'm an idealist.... but I don't think the world is quite this simple. Anyone who believes that poverty is a result of sin [for lack of better words] and prosperity is a result of good choices either lives their life very sheltered from the real world..... or they have had success served to them on a silver platter their entire life.

I didn't mean to say poverty is the result of a lack of work. Merely that finanical success is 99/100 times the result of someone who spends a lot of time at work. Also, someone who spent a lot of time and effort into training for his/her career. Of course you can work hard and still fail, but far more rare is it for one to not work much and succeed. Most of the high income jobs (ie doctor, lawyer, ect) are jobs that require a person to be at work well over the standard full time of 40 hours weekly.

 

[SonicBOOM]

I didn't mean to say poverty is the result of a lack of work. Merely that finanical success is 99/100 times the result of someone who spends a lot of time at work. Also, someone who spent a lot of time and effort into training for his/her career. Of course you can work hard and still fail, but far more rare is it for one to not work much and succeed. Most of the high income jobs (ie doctor, lawyer, ect) are jobs that require a person to be at work well over the standard full time of 40 hours weekly.

I think you and I made the same point than I'm sorry I misunderstood

 

[Apollo Celestio]

of course this doesn't consider wages, salary and the like. It doesn't consider how much the boss actually lets the employee work and whether or not the lack of hours is due to the work ethic of the employee or the unjust behavior of the employer.....

it also doesn't consider what goes on at home [sense we are talking about marrege]. It doesn't consider how lonely the wife and kids are.......


maybe I'm an idealist.... but I don't think the world is quite this simple. Anyone who believes that poverty is a result of sin [for lack of better words] and prosperity is a result of good choices either lives their life very sheltered from the real world..... or they have had success served to them on a silver platter their entire life.

This is true, and in the past minorities were affected directly by those who did not want to see them succeed. Same with immigrant workers, they probably work more than 40 hour weeks too. Often times material wealth must be discarded for the sake of the gospel, not a sacrifice suburban Americans have to make.

 

[Stravinsk]

You're implying that rich men are rich because they want money more. I don't think that's the case. I think everyone, generally, wants money about the same amount. Those who end up rich are those who have the opportunities to become rich. There are greedy people in both categories, in about the same proportions.

It depends on the man and what his motives are. There are indeed rich men who's goal in life is to accumulate, to gain power and influence, "To gain the whole world and lose their soul" - as Jesus said.

Then there are those who love their occupation, work hard at it, and it happens to be one that earns them a great deal of money.

I don't agree that everyone wants an equal amount of money. I don't, personally - I want enough to be comfortable, provide for a family and take the occassinal trip. Otherwise my needs are pretty small. I don't need to have the latest technology, the newest gadgets, expensive jewelry, expensive cars, so on and so forth. I simply don't covet these things - they aren't important to me. My passion for writing music costs me nothing except time doing something else that would make more money - for things I don't want or need anyway.

I don't think poverty is linked to godliness. If you're poor and godly, that's great, but I don't think one necessarily leads to the other. What about a rich man who gives away 80% of his earnings, and treats his wife with the utmost respect?

I'd guess that rich men who gave away 80% of their earnings are rare. And there are probably some rich men who treat their wife with a great deal of respect, spends lots of time with her and their children...but - most rich men I know of work *alot* of hours, do *alot* of travel etc - which obviously eats into wife and family time and sometimes can make temptation (to adultery for him or for her) more acute.

Didn't Jesus say the poor were blessed and woe to the rich? In my opinion, the only reason to aquire riches beyond that which makes one relatively comfortable (decent home/area, food, clothing, a few fun things) and provide for children's education - the only reason to aquire riches beyond this is ego, power and influence in varying degrees - be it vanity in front of friends or a megalomaniac.

 

[GQ Chris]

of course this assumes that everyone is dealt the exact same hand and the world works on absulute laws of cause and effect..... an idea so ignorant that you mide as well beleive that the moon is made of cheese.

Everyone goes through difficult times and trials, no one is exempt, no one here is denying that, again, its all about personal responsibility that we are all held accountable for by God.

 

[ido]

Well, as a matter of logic earning more is typically the result of working a lot more. The reality is if you're earning 6 figures you aren't working a 40 hour week.

True and you probably have at least a Master's degree - if not higher.

 

[ido]

I've known families that are dual income and I've known families that had SAHMs. In both situations, I have known families that have lived comfortably within their means and families that have struggled and piled up debt.

The thing that seems to be getting overlooked here is that a man providing for the needs of the family is really only speaking to basic needs - food, shelter, clothing, utilities. Anything beyond that is a luxury, but over time people have made other things like vacations, newer model cars, designer clothes, etc. a "need".

It is possible for a family of four to survive off of one person's modest salary. No six figures. No 50-60+ hour work weeks. It's not easy and a lot of luxury items have to be pushed off and put on the "wish list" that the family has. But, it can be done.

 

[K9_Trainer]

I think that the bottom line is that you can't idealize this situation. You really can't, and its a dangerous thing to try and do. Ideal =/= reality. When you get married and when you decide to start a family, it is the duty of both the husband AND the wife to do what is best for the family as a whole. Its no longer about you anymore, or what you want, or what you think is ideal. Nor is it about your wife and what she wants. Its about doing whats best for the family. And sometimes, it means giving up a desire to be a full time stay at home mom to go to work. Sometimes it means dad needs to be the primary caretaker of the kids while only holding a part time job. Sometimes it means switching from a job that you love to a job that has better hours.

In the end, it DOESN'T MATTER WHO PROVIDES. What matters is that you love one another and you are doing what you and your wife agree is best for the family.

 

[NoMoreLocusts]

There have been a LOT of topics discussed in this thread. It is interesting how different people see the issues because of their filters. I am a single, independent, career mother who owns her home, both vehicles, and pays my bills without anyone's assistance. I have raised one teenager and now a toddler. I have no desire to have any more children of my own, but would not mind taking in foster children and helping them change their lives. My parents did not go to college, yet I have two degrees. On my dad's side only one other member went to the Master's level. On my mom's side most did not even graduate high school.

My first point - family history is a false logic for reasoning why you will be poor. All three of my siblings and I make more than my parents would ever have dreamed of making. We all owned our first homes by 25. We all have careers not jobs.

My second point - it works for women as well. Why do I have to want children and not have a past and be this perfect, suburban housewife in order to attract a nice man? I am successful and love that God blessed me to be successful. I married and it was for the wrong reasons so it failed, yet I am supposed to still want to have children with someone else despite not wanting more children just because I should not rob someone else of that opportunity. I am made to feel like I am not worthy of a Christian man's love because I want to become a CEO and I want to live a good life. Yet it is not okay for a woman to cause a man to feel like he should have to provide for the family? Interesting.

I do not feel that anyone, male or female, should expect the other person to bear the full burden of the relationship - whether that is cooking, cleaning, bathing the kids, parenting the kids, helping with homework, doing yardwork, changing oil in the cars, or bringing in money.

Do I want a man who earns a good living? Absolutely. I would be lying if I said no. However, if the Lord brought me a man who was saving lives through his work in the non-profit arena and made only $20K a year, that would be okay. I would rather have him than the man bringing in a million dollars a year but not doing what the Lord had called him to do and who is not happy going to work. I love Mondays and I love my career. I expect the same should the Lord allow me to marry someday.

You mention mental issues, and you mental money, and I have to believe that most women are not in fact bothered by the inability to earn a great living so much as they would be concerned with mental illness. It sounds like the woman you seek is going to want children, and no woman would want to have children who are going to have mental illnesses. It is a tough thing to admit, I am sure, but from what you have shared, it would take a very special woman hearing the voice of God to willingly enter into a marriage with a 23 year old man collecting SSI who has psych problems. You sound defeated in your post, so I can imagine in real life how you sound - and hon, I can tell you that your marketing isn't going to appeal to the masses.

I would suggest to you that first- don't judge all women based on the few who want more quality than most. Nothing is wrong with them wanting it, but most of us would prefer a man who will be there over a man who will make tons of money, to someone else's point about the men who are never there. Second, please don't mention SSI and psyche issues until you are well involved with a friendship and know the woman, as any woman, even well off, would be scared away by those things. If she isn't, there might be something a bit disturbing on her end and you might be in over your own head. And finally and most importantly - do NOT speak over yourself that because your family is poor you will be. Do NOT allow the past to determine your future. Instead, speak Life into yourself. Dream and plan and meet goals. My goodness, I was a teen mother who was told I would never become anything - now I work for one of the world's largest companies and am leading several teams, managing some great projects, and overseeing reporting for an entire company! I was determined that what was spoken into my life from a young age would NOT be true, and it is not. It took a lot of bad decisions, wrong turns, and heartache, but I stand before you today proof that your name means nothing except what GOD says it means. Listen to His voice tell you who and what you are. I can promise that God intends for you to be more than someone with psyche issues collecting SSI....he has a plan and you just need to step into it. Ask Him to lead you, get yourself a great support system, and go out there and obtain all He has set before you - and one of those things will be a woman who is ready to accept whatever job you end up in - pastor making nothing, pastor making a million, fry guy, CEO, etc.

Good luck to you. As you change your perception of woman, I will promise to change my perception of men...I am sure it will be a slow change for us both!